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"Even as I Am"


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2 Nephi 31:16

... unless a man shall endure to the end

in following the example of the Son of the living God,

he cannot be saved.

 

With actionable specificity, what example did Jesus set?

  1. He honored his mother and his father (Luke 2:51).
  2. He could not be taught by mortal teachers (JST Matt 3:25).
  3. He entered the kingdom of heaven while the gate was open by believing a man who said he was sent by God to baptize and
  4. submitting to the commanded baptism as a witness to God that he would keep all God's commandments (2 Nephi 31:4-7).
    1. Because Jesus was fully sincere in his desire to keep all God's commandments and because the baptist was indeed sent by God, God gave the Holy Ghost to Jesus - thus he had entered into the kingdom of heaven by the gate and not by some other way (2 Nephi 31:9; John 10:1).
  5. He then communed with God in the wilderness, fasting 40 days (JST Matt 4:2).
  6. He held fast to the iron rod, the written words of God, to pass through the mists of darkness, which are the temptations of the Devil (Matt 4:1-11; 1 Nephi 11:25, 12:17).
    1. Because he overcame the temptations of the Devil, true messengers from God were sent to minister to him - the nature of their ministry to him is not recorded in the scripture (Matt 4:11).
  7. From that point he went about teaching the commandments of God that all men must keep to be saved (Luke 6:20-49; Matt 5-7; 3 Nephi 12-15:10; 1 Nephi 13:40-41),
  8. and keeping all of them (John 14:31),
  9. and doing good works (Acts 10:38),
  10. and speaking the words God gave him to speak (John 12:49-50),
  11. and willingly submitting to everything God saw fit to inflict upon him (Matt 5:39; John 12:25; Mark 4:37-40; Mosiah 3:19),
    1. even being cast out from among the people (1 Nephi 11:28) and killed (1 Nephi 11:33).

That, with actionable specificity, is the example set by the Son of the living God.

Questions:

  1. What manner of men had we ought to be?
  2. Jesus said anyone who breaks and teaches others to break the commandments of the Sermon on the Mount shall neither be saved, nor enter, in the kingdom heaven, while those who both kept and taught them until they had fulfilled all of them would be saved (JST Matt 5:21-22).
    1. Was Jesus telling the literal truth?
    2. If he was not telling the literal truth, what did he mean in literal terms?
Edited by Jared Livesey
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21 minutes ago, Jared Livesey said:

Questions:

  1. What manner of men had we ought to be?
  2. Jesus said anyone who breaks and teaches others to break the commandments of the Sermon on the Mount shall neither be saved, nor enter, in the kingdom heaven, while those who both kept and taught them until they had fulfilled all of them would be saved (JST Matt 5:21-22).
    1. Was Jesus telling the literal truth?
    2. If he was not telling the literal truth, what did he mean in literal terms?

What do you think?

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51 minutes ago, Jared Livesey said:

2 Nephi 31:16

... unless a man shall endure to the end

in following the example of the Son of the living God,

he cannot be saved.

 

With actionable specificity, what example did Jesus set?

  1. He honored his mother and his father (Luke 2:51).
  2. He could not be taught by mortal teachers (JST Matt 3:25).
  3. He entered the kingdom of heaven while the gate was open by believing a man who said he was sent by God to baptize and
  4. submitting to the commanded baptism as a witness to God that he would keep all God's commandments (2 Nephi 31:4-7).
    1. Because Jesus was fully sincere in his desire to keep all God's commandments and because the baptist was indeed sent by God, God gave the Holy Ghost to Jesus - thus he had entered into the kingdom of heaven by the gate and not by some other way (2 Nephi 31:9; John 10:1).
  5. He then communed with God in the wilderness, fasting 40 days (JST Matt 4:2).
  6. He held fast to the iron rod, the written words of God, to pass through the mists of darkness, which are the temptations of the Devil (Matt 4:1-11; 1 Nephi 11:25, 12:17).
    1. Because he overcame the temptations of the Devil, true messengers from God were sent to minister to him - the nature of their ministry to him is not recorded in the scripture (Matt 4:11).
  7. From that point he went about teaching the commandments of God that all men must keep to be saved (Luke 6:20-49; Matt 5-7; 3 Nephi 12-15:10; 1 Nephi 13:40-41),
  8. and keeping all of them (John 14:31),
  9. and doing good works (Acts 10:38),
  10. and speaking the words God gave him to speak (John 12:49-50),
  11. and willingly submitting to everything God saw fit to inflict upon him (Matt 5:39; John 12:25; Mark 4:37-40; Mosiah 3:19),
    1. even being cast out from among the people (1 Nephi 11:28) and killed (1 Nephi 11:33).

That, with actionable specificity, is the example set by the Son of the living God.

Questions:

  1. What manner of men had we ought to be?
  2. Jesus said anyone who breaks and teaches others to break the commandments of the Sermon on the Mount shall neither be saved, nor enter, in the kingdom heaven, while those who both kept and taught them until they had fulfilled all of them would be saved (JST Matt 5:21-22).
    1. Was Jesus telling the literal truth?
    2. If he was not telling the literal truth, what did he mean in literal terms?

What are "literal truth" and "literal terms"?

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4 hours ago, Jared Livesey said:
    1.  literal
    2. If he was not telling the literal truth, what did he mean in literal terms?

My opinion, but also I did not make it up, others better than me hold it; and I should say in my view more than my opinion but rather what I get from my reading of the scriptures themselves: anyone who reads the scriptures literally has not read them at all (and has become more or less dangerous in their prescriptions for themselves and others). Scriptures are presented symbolically and require keys to unlock all the levels. The literal version is actually a veil for those not prepared. It can also serve as a learning device for children to learn by rote so that they are later prepared for the deeper work; midrash as the Jews call it.

What is symbolized is true. What is literal is not true at least in the sense that it is seeing through a glass darkly.

Invoking truth always deserves a discussion on what truth is, which is a rabbit hole. Scriptural truth is something different than our modern usage, which goes to 'accuracy'; but scriptural truth goes more to what causes integrity and joy (freedom, love, glory, etc) in the human being. In older English usage, a person could be true (faithful). 'Truth' was not an adjective for concepts or information as it has become now.

So we are just off the road and in the mud when it comes to our preparation to gather salvation from the scriptures.

Even as I Am can be a very large discussion, but to summarize it for myself, it is the choice made that can be considered the sacrifice of the Lamb. Instead of causing death at the sins of others toward/upon us (pre-Law of Moses); instead of balancing act of the Law of Moses (eye for an eye); we instead offer good and healing and forgiveness and bearing (see 1 corinthians re charity) toward all the sins (=how they hurt us) of people (specifically toward us). We return good upon evil. i.e. post Law of Moses or the Gospel of Christ.

Each one of us is crucified in this world, each one of us has a broken heart. But the choice for a contrite spirit and the choice to NOT become crucifiers because we ourselves were crucified ("Hurt people hurt people" as Marianne Williamson wrote), but rather to rise (out of the tomb) and become saviors and healers and resurrecters--that is the Even as I Am.

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On 10/21/2020 at 11:13 AM, Jared Livesey said:

Questions:

  1. What manner of men had we ought to be?

The manner of men Jesus was and still is.

On 10/21/2020 at 11:13 AM, Jared Livesey said:
  1. Jesus said anyone who breaks and teaches others to break the commandments of the Sermon on the Mount shall neither be saved, nor enter, in the kingdom heaven, while those who both kept and taught them until they had fulfilled all of them would be saved (JST Matt 5:21-22).
    1. Was Jesus telling the literal truth?

Yes.

On 10/21/2020 at 11:13 AM, Jared Livesey said:

If he was not telling the literal truth, what did he mean in literal terms?

He meant what he said, and his teachings on repentance can help to clear up any confusion if anyone is confused by any of his teachings about how we should be.

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On 10/21/2020 at 3:13 PM, Jared Livesey said:

Truth is eternal, and it is not based on what “we think it is”, or “understand it to be”. We were given the perfect example of Jesus Christ, as the the goal of what we should “strive to be”, and what we are “promised we can become”, only through his “Grace, and Sacrifice”. A goal that can only be obtained through our own “grace extended to others, and the sacrifice that such grace demands”, always keeping focus upon “Him”. It is true that our “understanding”, is required, but just as scripture teaches, we must learn as Jesus Christ learned, “line upon line”, and “precept upon precept”, thus growing in “favor among  God and man”. We learn (or understand)  just as Jesus Christ did, “through the things that (He) we suffer”, for this is how Jesus became, “the author of our salvation”, and how we secure our salvation. Yet no matter our struggles, and works of righteousness, we will still be, “unprofitable servants”, which is why we need, and how the “Grace of God” saves us all. Thus as the Apostles have taught us, “we are saved by grace, least any man boast”. 
 

So when our Evangelical Christians friends say, “we are saved by Grace”, we should be quick to agree. Least in our effort to teach years of our understanding of the need for righteous living, we don’t send them away unwilling to listen to us proclaim our Christianity, and dismiss anything else we may have to say. I understand the teachings of the scriptures, and I know I will be an “unprofitable servant”, and that I am “saved by Grace alone”, and know why I need Jesus Christ, and to strive to be “perfect, even as my Father in Heaven is perfect”. Because I know that I can only be found perfect, in and through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in no other way. 

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Emulation of the only Perfect Human is the only way to Perfect Humanism.

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On 10/21/2020 at 4:24 PM, Maidservant said:

My opinion, but also I did not make it up, others better than me hold it; and I should say in my view more than my opinion but rather what I get from my reading of the scriptures themselves: anyone who reads the scriptures literally has not read them at all (and has become more or less dangerous in their prescriptions for themselves and others). Scriptures are presented symbolically and require keys to unlock all the levels. The literal version is actually a veil for those not prepared. It can also serve as a learning device for children to learn by rote so that they are later prepared for the deeper work; midrash as the Jews call it.

What is symbolized is true. What is literal is not true at least in the sense that it is seeing through a glass darkly.

Invoking truth always deserves a discussion on what truth is, which is a rabbit hole. Scriptural truth is something different than our modern usage, which goes to 'accuracy'; but scriptural truth goes more to what causes integrity and joy (freedom, love, glory, etc) in the human being. In older English usage, a person could be true (faithful). 'Truth' was not an adjective for concepts or information as it has become now.

So we are just off the road and in the mud when it comes to our preparation to gather salvation from the scriptures.

Even as I Am can be a very large discussion, but to summarize it for myself, it is the choice made that can be considered the sacrifice of the Lamb. Instead of causing death at the sins of others toward/upon us (pre-Law of Moses); instead of balancing act of the Law of Moses (eye for an eye); we instead offer good and healing and forgiveness and bearing (see 1 corinthians re charity) toward all the sins (=how they hurt us) of people (specifically toward us). We return good upon evil. i.e. post Law of Moses or the Gospel of Christ.

Each one of us is crucified in this world, each one of us has a broken heart. But the choice for a contrite spirit and the choice to NOT become crucifiers because we ourselves were crucified ("Hurt people hurt people" as Marianne Williamson wrote), but rather to rise (out of the tomb) and become saviors and healers and resurrecters--that is the Even as I Am.

Wow.   Just Wow.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/21/2020 at 12:13 PM, Jared Livesey said:

2 Nephi 31:16

... unless a man shall endure to the end

in following the example of the Son of the living God,

he cannot be saved.

 

With actionable specificity, what example did Jesus set?

  1. He honored his mother and his father (Luke 2:51).
  2. He could not be taught by mortal teachers (JST Matt 3:25).
  3. He entered the kingdom of heaven while the gate was open by believing a man who said he was sent by God to baptize and
  4. submitting to the commanded baptism as a witness to God that he would keep all God's commandments (2 Nephi 31:4-7).
    1. Because Jesus was fully sincere in his desire to keep all God's commandments and because the baptist was indeed sent by God, God gave the Holy Ghost to Jesus - thus he had entered into the kingdom of heaven by the gate and not by some other way (2 Nephi 31:9; John 10:1).
  5. He then communed with God in the wilderness, fasting 40 days (JST Matt 4:2).
  6. He held fast to the iron rod, the written words of God, to pass through the mists of darkness, which are the temptations of the Devil (Matt 4:1-11; 1 Nephi 11:25, 12:17).
    1. Because he overcame the temptations of the Devil, true messengers from God were sent to minister to him - the nature of their ministry to him is not recorded in the scripture (Matt 4:11).
  7. From that point he went about teaching the commandments of God that all men must keep to be saved (Luke 6:20-49; Matt 5-7; 3 Nephi 12-15:10; 1 Nephi 13:40-41),
  8. and keeping all of them (John 14:31),
  9. and doing good works (Acts 10:38),
  10. and speaking the words God gave him to speak (John 12:49-50),
  11. and willingly submitting to everything God saw fit to inflict upon him (Matt 5:39; John 12:25; Mark 4:37-40; Mosiah 3:19),
    1. even being cast out from among the people (1 Nephi 11:28) and killed (1 Nephi 11:33).

That, with actionable specificity, is the example set by the Son of the living God.

Questions:

  1. What manner of men had we ought to be?
  2. Jesus said anyone who breaks and teaches others to break the commandments of the Sermon on the Mount shall neither be saved, nor enter, in the kingdom heaven, while those who both kept and taught them until they had fulfilled all of them would be saved (JST Matt 5:21-22).
    1. Was Jesus telling the literal truth?
    2. If he was not telling the literal truth, what did he mean in literal terms?

What you describe is the byproduct of true repentance and the work of the Spirit in those that are converted. Obedience to the commandments should be the outward expression of our love and devotion to God and commitment to our Savior. The Lord has ALWAYS pointed to the heart and what ideas, thoughts, feelings and actions emanate fromm a changed heart vs an unconverted one.

From the OT all the way through the coming of Christ the theme is the same:

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer.31:33.

God does not care about empty rituals or liturgy. The symbolic is there to give us a mental image of the divine but it was not meant to supplanted. But He has ALWAYS been interested in changing the inner workings of our hearts through the Spirit.

 "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hos. 6:6

"With what shall I come before the LORD, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:6-8

The Savior pointed with great clarity what is true righteousness and the fulfillment of the law: Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matt 22:37-40.

The rest flows from there and is the outgrowth of the faith and obedience that are driven by the inner workings of the Spirit when we are truly converted. The kind of "love" that Christ speaks of here is NOT the mundane, trifled and trivialized counterfeited love the worlds talks about in songs and pop lit. The pure love of God; that He gave His ONLY, perfect, Begotten Son, Jesus Christ to be tortured and to die for us on Calvary that if we ave faith and believe that He is the means and way to salvation, we can become His children and heirs to salvation.

So, it is that kind of love in our hearts and poured out onto our neighbors that becomes the righteousness of God in us and fulfills all the law. 

 

 

 

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