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Post Mormon reaction to child abusers from their own community


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24 minutes ago, juliann said:

I've reported the male tears. Go pass out hankies in your own threads. This is mine. 

Seriously guys, get a grip. This is why women have to resort to women only folders so they can discuss things that pertain to women.  

The more I get to know women the more I understand that they really need to be around or at least have access to other women, just so they can talk and vent their feelings with other women.

As a man I don't feel that kind of need to have other men or even one other man around, aside from our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost *who I believe is also a man).

Doesn't seem quite fair to me, like maybe women should have access to our Mother in heaven.  But I suppose a perfect man, and a perfect Father, is supposed to be close enough.

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7 hours ago, Frater Lumen said:

You guys are comparing apples to oranges here, and my saying so is not a "neener, neener."

Not really as you are going after a straw man. 

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27 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The more I get to know women the more I understand that they really need to be around or at least have access to other women, just so they can talk and vent their feelings with other women.

As a man I don't feel that kind of need to have other men or even one other man around, aside from our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost *who I believe is also a man).

Doesn't seem quite fair to me, like maybe women should have access to our Mother in heaven.  But I suppose a perfect man, and a perfect Father, is supposed to be close enough.

It's no fun to not see many women mentioned in the Bible or BOM. That's why I think most of what is said comes from men. Maybe with a trickling of inspiration from above. Sure would be nice if women were allowed to speak more in the Bible times, maybe we would have been able to feel akin to our own sex, but no, women have to see mostly everything in religion in a man's lens sadly.

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9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

When was the last time a noted LDS figure killed himself to avoid the consequences of their abuse?

This could reasonably change the timing. The question is how long do you think comparable reactions should start to be seen or do you think the difference between for example, the reaction to the news about the Temple film director whose name I can’t remember and Kimball will always be too great because his death is an added factor?

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4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's no fun to not see many women mentioned in the Bible or BOM. That's why I think most of what is said comes from men. Maybe with a trickling of inspiration from above. Sure would be nice if women were allowed to speak more in the Bible times, maybe we would have been able to feel akin to our own sex, but no, women have to see mostly everything in religion in a man's lens sadly.

You need to become a Catholic. Then you can talk to the Virgin Mary all the time. There are dedicated altars in many churches to Mary, who, incidentally, is considered a Saint.

Mary can even help you get to Heaven, and the Catholic Church has even been criticized for allowing a cultish following of Mary.  And yes she is the Mother of God.  How much better can you get!😇

 

 

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9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Yet at the moment I am worried that she is detracting from her own message by launching such a vague, personal attack on Park.

I don’t see it as that vague when she gives the list of what an actual victim advocate does and one can contrast it with Park’s comments. 
 

But there is history there that complicates the interaction and creates a subtext that could distract. 

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7 hours ago, Frater Lumen said:

applaud Signature Books for protecting their employee, as we would expect them to do and as is their legal obligation. I am not sure what that has to do with Sunstone's alleged failures.

Sunstone and Signature were likely confused.

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4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's no fun to not see many women mentioned in the Bible or BOM. That's why I think most of what is said comes from men. Maybe with a trickling of inspiration from above. Sure would be nice if women were allowed to speak more in the Bible times, maybe we would have been able to feel akin to our own sex, but no, women have to see mostly everything in religion in a man's lens sadly.

Well, at least we have the Relief Society in our Lord's church.  I like to think our Mother in heaven had something to do with that.  And women have been around for just as long as men have, talking and venting and sharing all of their and your (as a woman's) ideas, so I don't think we've ever been in danger of not hearing what a woman thinks about and has to say. Women have always had a way to share what they think with men as well as with other women.

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4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

We're all hypocrites who tend to be more critical of our "enemies" than of our friends. I suppose we need a thread once in a while to remind us of that.

I wouldn’t have a problem with this unless someone has become a crusader/activist (which effort I usually applaud if actual advocates and not self promoting or justification).  It is a very understandable reaction if only because the more we know someone, generally the more aware we are of their complicated motivations while people we don’t know may seem simpler characters.

However, activists by their choice to become public critics of others place themselves where they don’t have the luxury to make excuses for when it is someone they care about without damaging their cause and potentially the victims they mean to protect, who then may wonder if this is someone they can now trust. 
 

Think of a doctor who demands impartial decisions when it comes to transplant organs in order to reassure patients they have a fair chance and if they suffer, it is not because of someone else’s privilege.  And then patients find out the doctor used their position to move their spouse to the front of the line rather than recusing themselves in that case.  Pretty much destroys trust in the system and makes waiting for a transplant that much more anxiety producing and desperate. 
 

Activists need to learn to control or be silent when it becomes too personal for them to continue being the type of advocate their chosen cause needs.

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1 hour ago, juliann said:

I've reported the male tears. Go pass out hankies in your own threads. This is mine. 

Seriously guys, get a grip. This is why women have to resort to women only folders so they can discuss things that pertain to women.  

Hi Julian, I am not sure if I am included in this or not, but In case there is any confusion, I thought this thread was about child abuse in general and the different reactions from in or out of the church.  
I see myself as an advocate for victims, regardless of sex and was simply addressing an incorrect statistic to give voice to all victims.  There was no indication that this was only about female victims.    I am not here to defend men, I am hear to defend victims, and that requires an honest assessment of the problem, and both men and women are the problem to some degree or another.  

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2 hours ago, Frater Lumen said:

Yes, Lindsay pointed out that Anne McMullin has a grudge against her. I am not making the claim. Lindsay is. Nothing Victorian in me believing her.

No, just automatically discounting what a woman says due to possible emotions being involved. 

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24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Hi Julian, I am not sure if I am included in this or not, but In case there is any confusion, I thought this thread was about child abuse in general and the different reactions from in or out of the church.  
I see myself as an advocate for victims, regardless of sex and was simply addressing an incorrect statistic to give voice to all victims.  There was no indication that this was only about female victims.    I am not here to defend men, I am hear to defend victims, and that requires an honest assessment of the problem, and both men and women are the problem to some degree or another.  

I personally don’t have a problem with your comments as I saw it as you providing overall context with appropriate data, though at times that might be unintentionally distracting.

As was stated by someone else, the quote about compassion is an important way of seeing it, imo.  For me it is important to understand who are the victims in order to give them voices  

The problems begin when such shifts the topic away from what is seen to be needed to be spotlighted, in the case of the board this need is determined by the opening post. 
 

So I do think when we start to see the topic veer, we should question if it is the typical derailment of those of us who get easily distracted or is it about diminishing a point of view, at times in favor for another irrelevant one. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

No, just automatically discounting what a woman says due to possible emotions being involved. 

Or you automatically discounting what a woman says, that woman being Lindsay? Lindsay's emotions are also involved, and I am listening to those. I refuse to ignore them simply because you say I am listening to the wrong woman's voice and the wrong woman's emotions.

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28 minutes ago, Frater Lumen said:

Or you automatically discounting what a woman says, that woman being Lindsay? Lindsay's emotions are also involved, and I am listening to those. I refuse to ignore them simply because you say I am listening to the wrong woman's voice and the wrong woman's emotions.

And another strawman. 

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38 minutes ago, Frater Lumen said:

Or you automatically discounting what a woman says, that woman being Lindsay?

Like I said straw men...I have never automatically discounted what Park has to say. I question the appropriateness of her preempting the right of his other abuse victims to choose when they wished to go public.  I believe her own claims of how he treated her. If she had simply spoken about those in some fashion that did not force other victims to come forward to confirm her claims, I would be very supportive of her bravery. 

Edited by Calm
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This is what people/orgs do when they are trying to solve the problem.

Last week, we announced and expressed our sadness that a longtime MHA participant and former board member had died. Several hours after posting, we began learning that this individual had taken his own life in the midst of allegations of sexual abuse that were recently coming out against him from some of his family members. MHA condemns sexual or any kind of abuse or harassment, and so we took the post down. We express our compassion, understanding, and empathy for his victims.
 
We have ascertained that none of the reported incidences of sexual abuse by this individual occurred in an MHA setting, though we did just learn that one instance of a verbal attack by this individual occurred in a hallway during a 2015 MHA conference.
Concerned for the safety and well-being of all MHA participants, we encourage any MHA participant who has experienced abuse or harassment, by this individual or from anyone at an MHA meeting, to please contact MHA Executive Director Barbara Brown at bjb@mormonhistoryassociation.org or 801-521-6565, so that we can be aware of and appropriately address concerns.
 
At our Fall board meeting this week, MHA board leaders will be discussing the formalization of an anti-abuse/harassment statement, as well as further measures we can take to ensure that MHA is always a welcoming, safe, and enriching environment for all members and participants. We will share the results of our efforts in our Fall newsletter.
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10 hours ago, juliann said:

I do find it interesting that in Mormon spaces, rather than blaming other groups for worse behavior, it inevitably turns into a defense of men.  On this forum, at least, there is an almost primal reaction to the idea that females are victimized by males at much greater rates. It's so so weird. I could post that women make up over 70% of the victims of domestic murder and men would jump in to insist that a small percentage of women have killed men partners. Nor do they account for the self defense factor, which is real, in female domestic violence. Hopefully, this is specific to this forum.

🤣

At least I assume it was a joke. If not I have some bad news for you.

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8 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

You need to become a Catholic. Then you can talk to the Virgin Mary all the time. There are dedicated altars in many churches to Mary, who, incidentally, is considered a Saint.

Mary can even help you get to Heaven, and the Catholic Church has even been criticized for allowing a cultish following of Mary.  And yes she is the Mother of God.  How much better can you get!😇

 

Talking to God’s mom would be nice but given the option I would rather talk to my mom.

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Quote

 

Obituary
Thomas Smith Kimball (53) passed away on October 13, 2020 in Logan, Utah. Tom was born on March 24, 1967 in Salt Lake City, Utah, the son of Elden Clifford Kimball and Esther Anderson. He married Page Ogden on September 23, 1989. Many years later, they divorced.  On April 28, 2018, he married Kelly Christine McAfee. Survivors include: his wife Kelly, his former spouse Page, his children James (Tayler) Kimball, Jessie (Gage Jensen) Kimball, Shad Kimball, Rhyan Kimball, Rachael Kimball, a grandson Tommy, and his siblings Lynda Richards, Dan Kimball, John Kimball, and Stacey Larsen.  He is preceded in death by his parents and 3 siblings, Glenn Kimball, Jimmy Kimball, and Mary Kimball.
"As we lay Tom's body to rest, we recognize the pain he caused many lives on. We mourn for and stand by each victim."
Private services will be held by his family. The memorial service will be livestreamed via Zoom for those not in attendance.  

Click on the following link to join in on the funeral service via Zoom. Please make note of the following prior to joining to ensure a smooth transition into the Zoom meeting: wait to join until 30 minutes prior to the service start time, download the Zoom application onto your device and make an account (this is free), and join with your device's audio and not phone audio unless you plan to call into the meeting.

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81436843472?pwd=SDA1Szc1VVdqUER4dEp5N2NEb0MzUT09

Meeting ID: 814 3684 3472
Passcode: 057479

 

https://www.andersonmortuary.com/obituary/Thomas-Smith-Kimball?fbclid=IwAR3f2NF8Y0YgPa9NXycbddDtasJgu1gxTtzvaWvs5VQYbKdK1cm3TCwuzZg

His family again released a public statement:

Quote

Dear friends and family, My dad's funeral will be tomorrow October 20th at 2pm. This will not be in person due to corona virus. It will be live streamed via zoom and recorded to watch either live or on you own time. We would like to warn everyone that this will not be a conventional funeral. We will be talking about subjects that can be triggering for mental health such as suicide and various forms of abuse. This is not a funeral that will talk only about the good, it will also talk about the negative. It will be my dad; The good, the bad, the ugly. We hope that sharing our truth will help bring some much needed closure. 

https://www.facebook.com/jessica.kimball.71/posts/3747184021960683

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On 10/19/2020 at 8:29 AM, stemelbow said:

And dreadfully awful that a higher percent, it seems, of these victims are female or other non-male.

Sorry to break into a conversation in which I'm not a participant, but the term "other non-male" kind of jumped out at me, and I can't figure out what is meant here. Doesn't the term "female" cover all persons who are not male? I promise I won't start a whole new exchange about this. You can even privately let me know what you meant by this somewhat odd wording. No judgement. Just honestly confused by your choice of words.

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26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Is there a link to see the funeral of Tom Kimball? I tried the ones given above. 

If I understand correctly, to join Zoom you must use the ID and passcode. I think it only works within a set time period before the meeting starts.

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8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If I understand correctly, to join Zoom you must use the ID and passcode. I think it only works within a set time period before the meeting starts.

That's what I gathered, I'm impressed that they are recognizing the victims and discussing abuse. This is what makes me want to watch to see how it's handled. That is really going to validate the victims and help them heal. Hoping for a link to the funeral soon. I didn't think I could watch zoom if it's already over. I guess I should try the ID and passcode to see if it's available, didn't do that yet, thank you! ETA: Losing all track of time. Looks like the funeral is going to be today. I thought it was over!

Edited by Tacenda
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