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Post Mormon reaction to child abusers from their own community


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I am not inclined to accept opinions on how a few think the community should heal.

Kimball's funeral service online and is available in FB.  It was described by a friend as a "powerful service" and a "step in the healing process." Remarks can be found Mormon Hub and Mormon Historian in FB

We are all blessed by the strength and power of the Mormon Studies community.  Kimball's decades-long behavior will not destroy it, and as the community works together it will heal and get better.

Edited by JamesBYoung
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6 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

I am not inclined to accept opinions on how a few think the community should heal.

And yet you expect us to accept yours without documentation or listing your credentials. 

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45 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Then document as I have as I am not inclined to take your word given how you interpret posts here.

It’s starting to look like trolling.

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27 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

Yes, you were, and I put an end to it.

We are done.

The man has spoken, Juliann.  Sit down and shut up. 
 

This is getting harder to take seriously.

Edited by Calm
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This tragedy has caused me to reflect on three things I have read recently. In addiction recovery we make a list of everyone we have hurt and then make the commitment to make amends to them when possible. Is forgiveness possible for such grievous sins? How do we heal those we hurt?

 

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Alma 36: 11 And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did not hear them; for when I heard the words—If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God—I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more. 12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. 13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror. 15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul. 17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. 20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

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We know that Alma also agonized about those whom he had led away from the truth. But Alma himself could not heal and restore all those he had led away. He could not himself ensure that they would be given a fair opportunity to learn the doctrine of Christ and to be blessed by living its joyful principles. He could not bring back those who may have died still blinded by his false teaching.

As President Boyd K. Packer once taught: “The thought that rescued Alma … is this: Restoring what you cannot restore, healing the wound you cannot heal, fixing that which you broke and you cannot fix is the very purpose of the atonement of Christ.” The joyous truth on which Alma’s mind “caught hold” was not just that he himself could be made clean but also that those whom he had harmed could be healed and made whole...

Would Alma truly have felt what he describes as “exquisite … joy” if he thought that Christ saved him but left forever harmed those he had led away from the truth? Surely not. For Alma to feel complete peace, those he harmed also needed the opportunity to be made whole.

But how exactly would they—or those we may harm—be made whole? Although we do not fully understand the sacred mechanics by which the Savior’s atoning sacrifice heals and restores, we do know that to ensure a righteous judgment, the Savior will clear away the underbrush of ignorance and the painful thorns of hurt caused by others. By this He ensures that all God’s children will be given the opportunity, with unobscured vision, to choose to follow Him and accept the great plan of happiness.

It is these truths that would have brought Alma peace. And it is these truths that should bring us great peace as well. As natural men and women, we all bump, or sometimes crash, into each other and cause harm. As any parent can testify, the pain associated with our mistakes is not simply the fear of our own punishment but the fear that we may have limited our children’s joy or in some way hindered them from seeing and understanding the truth. The glorious promise of the Savior’s atoning sacrifice is that as far as our mistakes as parents are concerned, He holds our children blameless and promises healing for them. And even when they have sinned against the light—as we all do—His arm of mercy is outstretched, and He will redeem them if they will but look to Him and live.

Although the Savior has power to mend what we cannot fix, He commands us to do all we can to make restitution as part of our repentance. Our sins and mistakes displace not only our relationship with God but also our relationships with others. Sometimes our efforts to heal and restore may be as simple as an apology, but other times restitution may require years of humble effort. Yet, for many of our sins and mistakes, we simply are not able to fully heal those we have hurt. The magnificent, peace-giving promise of the Book of Mormon and the restored gospel is that the Savior will mend all that we have broken. And He will also mend us if we turn to Him in faith and repent of the harm we have caused. He offers both of these gifts because He loves all of us with perfect love and because He is committed to ensuring a righteous judgment that honors both justice and mercy. 

 

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Strange Meeting by Wilfred Owen
 
It seemed that out of battle I escaped 
Down some profound dull tunnel, long since scooped 
Through granites which titanic wars had groined. 
 
Yet also there encumbered sleepers groaned, 
Too fast in thought or death to be bestirred. 
Then, as I probed them, one sprang up, and stared 
With piteous recognition in fixed eyes, 
Lifting distressful hands, as if to bless. 
And by his smile, I knew that sullen hall,— 
By his dead smile I knew we stood in Hell. 
 
With a thousand fears that vision's face was grained; 
Yet no blood reached there from the upper ground, 
And no guns thumped, or down the flues made moan. 
“Strange friend,” I said, “here is no cause to mourn.” 
“None,” said that other, “save the undone years, 
The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours, 
Was my life also; I went hunting wild 
After the wildest beauty in the world, 
Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair, 
But mocks the steady running of the hour, 
And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here. 
For by my glee might many men have laughed, 
And of my weeping something had been left, 
Which must die now. I mean the truth untold, 
The pity of war, the pity war distilled. 
Now men will go content with what we spoiled. 
Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled. 
They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress. 
None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress. 
Courage was mine, and I had mystery; 
Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery: 
To miss the march of this retreating world 
Into vain citadels that are not walled. 
Then, when much blood had clogged their chariot-wheels, 
I would go up and wash them from sweet wells, 
Even with truths that lie too deep for taint. 
I would have poured my spirit without stint 
But not through wounds; not on the cess of war. 
Foreheads of men have bled where no wounds were. 
 
“I am the enemy you killed, my friend. 
I knew you in this dark: for so you frowned 
Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed. 
I parried; but my hands were loath and cold. 
Let us sleep now. . . .”

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 10/18/2020 at 10:14 PM, Calm said:

Calm:

You may want to slow your roll.  Anne is "Rosebud" and as "Rosebud", had accused John Dehlin of "abuse" because the two of them entered a consensual adulterous relationship.  All of these Medium articles are is the latest "Rosebud" attempt to set herself up as some expert on Mormon abuse.  But rather than actually come out with specific accusations against John, Rosebud simply hints and dodges when asked for any level of detail.

Rosebud is not to be trusted.  The only thing she's an expert on is defaming a man's character in such a way as to dodge legal consequences.

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2 hours ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:

But rather than actually come out with specific accusations against John, Rosebud simply hints and dodges when asked for any level of detail.

I think some are misinterpreting what I mean by powerful voice or assume I agree with everything she says or how she says it or I am a follower now.  Powerful isn’t equivalent to good or accurate, though I think she has made some interesting suggestions and her list of ten recommendations for victims advocates seems consistent with what else I have read by experts.

I am not claiming she is an expert in anything, but she has training in that she has a master’s in clinical psychology.  If one is going to claim credentials for Dehlin based on his education, hers seem just as valid.

Hopefully that will put as ease any assumptions I have suddenly converted to hero worship of McMullin.

I read the Rosebud’s accounts back several years ago including one where Dehlin groped her breasts without her consent.  Does he need to do it more than once to be a predator?  Or is there a reason you don’t seem to believe he did this to her?

 I remember previous accounts I had looked at once or twice when someone would point them out to me that had been vague and disjointed, but then she came out one time with some specific detail.  We had a thread that mentioned this at the same time as Kate Kelly and another woman I can’t remember the name of came out with accusations about sexism in paying podcasters and other women shared how Dehlin had kicked them off as moderators and other such actions that were interpreted as lack of respect for women.
 

Stem connected McMullin with Rosebud for us back then, I had forgotten perhaps because she had Peffer as a surname as well then, but the name sounded vaguely familiar so I did some research and came across the thread a day or two ago and refreshed my memory of that controversy.  
 

I think McMullin has improved in her writing since then or got a editor. Her SL Trib opinion articles seemed decent to me. 

Edited by Calm
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Either my phone is glitching weird or the original content on Mormon Discussions was removed, but part was saved with the specific accusation here for those curious as to what is now being discussed. I will get the old thread here I referred to as well. 
 

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/tag/rosebud/

I think the Rosebud part of the discussion got seriously started here though there were earlier references in the thread:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69038-open-stories-foundation-dehlin-money-and-compensation/page/10/

 

Edited by Calm
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31 minutes ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:

 

Rosebud is not to be trusted.  The only thing she's an expert on is defaming a man's character in such a way as to dodge legal consequences.

Are you a friend of James B?  More accusations without documentation?  We are just supposed to take your word for it?

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you a friend of James B?  More accusations without documentation?  We are just supposed to take your word for it?

Probably Dehlin or one of his groupies. 

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7 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Probably Dehlin or one of his groupies. 

Since they seem most offended by the alleged defamation of a "man's character" as opposed to 'others' characters' or specifically her primary accusations against LHP in this round and appears to be equally willing to trash LHP's character as McMullin's (see below), wouldn't be surprised.

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And just like LHP, she's using Tom's victims to promote herself and her grievances.

 

Edited by Calm
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6 hours ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:

Don't hitch your wagon to Rosebud.  She is a cunning dishonest actor.  Don't let her fool you.

 

6 hours ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:

Rosebud has been playing with fire for a long time.  And just like LHP, she's using Tom's victims to promote herself and her grievances.

Don't hitch your wagon to figureheads, period. Support good behavior. I support the good that McMullin is advocating and I support the good that Lindsay Hansen Park is advocating. 

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Thanks to everyone for sharing. This Tom Kimball's wife of the last 2 1/2 years.

Tom's death has been devastating and confusing to many who loved him.

I hope you take the opportunity to view his memorial service. We did our best to honor his victims while we shared the goodness he created in our lives that we'll cling to. Tom Kimball was not a good man. I started discovering this truth about 6 months into the marriage. With Tom, I thought I had found my person. Instead, I had found a person with a deep darkness and ugly secrets who, I believe, spent his life trying to convince himself and everyone else that he was good.

The last week of Tom's life, he repeated to me several times, "I'm a good person." When I finally told him (on the last day of his life) that I knew about his sexual abuse and told him, "You're not behaving like a good person," rather than humbling himself and apologizing for his actions, he lashed out, telling me I wasn't being fair to him. I won't go into my response, but you can I imagine my rebuttal.

Tom killed himself, not because he was depressed, but because he was afraid to go to jail.

I hope you'll honor his family and all of his other victims by viewing/sharing his memorial service and continuing to raise awareness about the cycles of abuse. You can find the video of the memorial on the Anderson and Son's (Am Fork) website.

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15 minutes ago, Sister-wife said:

Thanks to everyone for sharing. This Tom Kimball's wife of the last 2 1/2 years.

Tom's death has been devastating and confusing to many who loved him.

I hope you take the opportunity to view his memorial service. We did our best to honor his victims while we shared the goodness he created in our lives that we'll cling to. Tom Kimball was not a good man. I started discovering this truth about 6 months into the marriage. With Tom, I thought I had found my person. Instead, I had found a person with a deep darkness and ugly secrets who, I believe, spent his life trying to convince himself and everyone else that he was good.

The last week of Tom's life, he repeated to me several times, "I'm a good person." When I finally told him (on the last day of his life) that I knew about his sexual abuse and told him, "You're not behaving like a good person," rather than humbling himself and apologizing for his actions, he lashed out, telling me I wasn't being fair to him. I won't go into my response, but you can I imagine my rebuttal.

Tom killed himself, not because he was depressed, but because he was afraid to go to jail.

I hope you'll honor his family and all of his other victims by viewing/sharing his memorial service and continuing to raise awareness about the cycles of abuse. You can find the video of the memorial on the Anderson and Son's (Am Fork) website.

Thank you so much for the person you have been during this horrific time. I hope you have the comfort and support you need, and I wish you the very best!

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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

 

I support the good that McMullin is advocating and I support the good that Lindsay Hansen Park is advocating. 

Just like always, McMullin only advocates for herself.

And to be honest, I'm not impressed with LHP either.  Somehow she managed to make this all about here in her FB posts.  How exhausted *she* was etc...  Good grief. Who cares about LHP and her exhaustion right now?  

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

Since they seem most offended by the alleged defamation of a "man's character" as opposed to 'others' characters' or specifically her primary accusations against LHP in this round and appears to be equally willing to trash LHP's character as McMullin's (see below), wouldn't be surprised.

Anne is only using this against LHP because of her long-standing issues with John Dehlin.  She has claimed for years to have been abused by John while providing no evidence to support her claims.  And now she's using this opportunity to slam LHP because she "predator masked" John Dehlin.

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7 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you a friend of James B? 

I don't know who James B is.

I just have a problem with people making public accusations of abuse and then refusing to substantiate their claims.  It would be like Harvey Weinstein's accusers coming out on public forums telling us what a bad guy Harvey is, and then refusing to say why.

And for the record, I despise John Dehlin.  He's a dishonest jerk who has led thousands of people out of the Church to serve his own ego.  So try and dismiss my view by saying I"m a Dehlin "groupie" but the opposite is true.

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8 minutes ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:

Just like always, McMullin only advocates for herself.

And to be honest, I'm not impressed with LHP either.  Somehow she managed to make this all about here in her FB posts.  How exhausted *she* was etc...  Good grief. Who cares about LHP and her exhaustion right now?  

Have you listened to the What We Know podcast? They talk about identifying predatorial behaviors. I am only a few episodes in, and there is valuable stuff in there.

And Lindsay Hansen Park has done immense work around Mormon polygamy. If they have made mistakes, if there is stuff they need to be accountable about, I am for that, too. 

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6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

And Lindsay Hansen Park has done immense work around Mormon polygamy. If they have made mistakes, if there is stuff they need to be accountable about, I am for that, too. 

Doing good work on Mormon Polygamy isn't a cover for exploiting the suffering of abuse victims to gain sympathy and attention for yourself, sorry.

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26 minutes ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:

I don't know who James B is.

I just have a problem with people making public accusations of abuse and then refusing to substantiate their claims.  It would be like Harvey Weinstein's accusers coming out on public forums telling us what a bad guy Harvey is, and then refusing to say why.

And for the record, I despise John Dehlin.  He's a dishonest jerk who has led thousands of people out of the Church to serve his own ego.  So try and dismiss my view by saying I"m a Dehlin "groupie" but the opposite is true.

Is this the famous Sandra Tanner? Welcome! I'm glad that you are no longer viewed as this evil person because of the info put out by you and your husband of church warts. I believe both of you wanted to get the truth. 

I'm kinda surprised that you have that take on LHP. I remember you attended a Sunstone at the two I've been to. 

 

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