Post Mormon reaction to child abusers from their own community

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

my question:  Is there any evidence of this generational victimization and abuse within the Kimball family?

I haven't come across anything besides speculation Tom Kimball was abused that I remember.  As far as evidence that HCK got it going, I am curious as well.  Is it simply assumed that polygamy leads to this due to the age of some of the wives or something else.

[Fair Dinkum]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I haven't come across anything besides speculation Tom Kimball was abused that I remember.  As far as evidence that HCK got it going, I am curious as well.  Is it simply assumed that polygamy leads to this due to the age of some of the wives or something else.

It would be a sad legacy were it true.

[juliann]

5 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I want to ask a sincere question, Admin, if it is not appropriate, you can delete it.

 

I've read Lindsay Hansen Park's FB post regarding Tom Kimball.  In that post there is an assertion that Heber C. Kimball set into motion the multi generational abuse of children AKA pedophilia within the Kimball family and that Tom is just one of both its many victims and abusers within the Kimball family.  As far as I am concerned this is hearsay until there is evidence to support this assertion.  So my question:  Is there any evidence of this generational victimization and abuse within the Kimball family?

That family tree would be pretty diverse by time it got to Tom. It seems more likely it would have been one line and it would only take a grandparent and father for it to be seen as passed down. Plus it is highly unlikely they kept records. My line had a daughter that was put in a girl's home. It was eventually figured out that she had been substituted for dead mom by dad so she was the one that had to be disposed of. This was never in writing but close enough that my grandparents knew. It takes another generation or so of the stories about what a deliquent she was for people to figure out what happened. My one critique of Park is that she uses unsubstantiated random statements in her polygamy stuff. 

[pogi]

18 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

In that post there is an assertion that Heber C. Kimball set into motion the multi generational abuse of children AKA pedophilia within the Kimball family and that Tom is just one of both its many victims and abusers within the Kimball family.  As far as I am concerned this is hearsay until there is evidence to support this assertion.  So my question:  Is there any evidence of this generational victimization and abuse within the Kimball family?

Such assertions without evidence is nothing more than gossip - a rash and reckless defamation.  It upsets me that people are so careless to publish such suggestions without evidence. 

[Sister-wife]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:47 AM, Meadowchik said:

Thank you so much for the person you have been during this horrific time. I hope you have the comfort and support you need, and I wish you the very best!

Thank you so much. I hope others can use this situation as a tool. Victims need to be heard. Abusers need to be held accountable. 

[Sister-wife]

On 10/20/2020 at 2:57 PM, Tacenda said:

This is a post shared to LHP's FB by Tom's niece. Looks like she says Lindsay held back from saying things that she had given permission to go into much more detail. 

Lindsay, I just wanted to say a few words on your wall rather then just in the comments of your posts regarding victims of Tom Kimball. For those who didn't see, I'm the daughter of Tom's oldest brother and I am one of the victims Lindsay has been advocating for. We will have a statement shortly but today I saw you attacked in another post from someone who wrote an entire article full of misinformation about you and your role in this and it really ticked me off. I have asked YOU for help in being a fair advocate for me. YOU have NOT asked me to be an advocate for you because you got this!! But I want to say to everyone that anything Lindsay has said in her posts about the victims was true and used by permission. In fact, she was so sensitive to our privacy that I had to ask her to go ahead and start naming me because I didn't want to be a secret any more. Lindsay has my entire witness statement, which was 17 pages long. She has the story. She's NOT saying WAY MORE then she's saying. She's saying way less then I've given her permission to say. Now, when you are accused of lying or seeking publicity or "likes", when you are doubted if the story is true, those people need to say Dayna Brown is a liar.

This is Tom Kimball's wife.

Lindsey also has my support and the support of Tom's children to speak for his victims at their discretion.

I met LHP through Tom a few years ago and have spent much time with her since in Kirtland and in SLC.

She's been an amazing friend to me during this incredibly difficult situation.

Also, Dayna is a badass and I'm so proud of her and all of Tom's victims for coming forward.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Sister-wife said:

This is Tom Kimball's wife.

Lindsey also has my support and the support of Tom's children to speak for his victims at their discretion.

I met LHP through Tom a few years ago and have spent much time with her since in Kirtland and in SLC.

She's been an amazing friend to me during this incredibly difficult situation.

Also, Dayna is a badass and I'm so proud of her and all of Tom's victims for coming forward.

The more I hear the more it sounds like it is working to be healing generally speaking, some strange blips at times. I hope the article and any other measures you all decide to take bring back ten fold in blessings.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

The more I hear the more it sounds like it is working to be healing generally speaking, some strange blips at times. I hope the article and any other measures you all decide to take bring back ten fold in blessings.

Ditto! 😊

[JamesBYoung]

On 10/21/2020 at 7:00 AM, Calm said:

Your accusation was she operates from a female toxicity positions that views all predators as men.  Unless you are claiming what I quoted from your post doesn't actually mean that.

This is false as I demonstrated...so now you shift the goal post.

You demonstrated nothing of the sort.  You asserted as if that was conclusive evidence.  It is not.

[JamesBYoung]

58 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

You demonstrated nothing of the sort.  You asserted as if that was conclusive evidence.  It is not.

And I should note that Kelly, Lindsay, and Page Kimball Ogden are amazing women, and their comments should be believed.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said:

You demonstrated nothing of the sort.  You asserted as if that was conclusive evidence.  It is not.

I quoted her using “she” in conjunction with “predator” meaning a female predator can exist in her view. 
 

So CFR she believes all predators are men. 

[JamesBYoung]

On 12/27/2020 at 8:59 PM, Calm said:

I quoted her using “she” in conjunction with “predator” meaning a female predator can exist in her view. 
 

So CFR she believes all predators are men. 

You are assuming the noun is exclusive rather than inclusive. To make it more clear I would have typed 's/he.'  Yes, I agree women can be predators also.

 

[marineland]

On 10/15/2020 at 8:19 PM, Meadowchik said:

The LDS emphasis on modesty being part of a female's responsibility to help men resist sexual temptation.

Sexual temptation is a two-way street.

[Calm]

On 1/1/2021 at 8:31 AM, marineland said:

Sexual temptation is a two-way street.

Only if one actually intends to tempt. There are those who are sexually tempted when they view children. Are you suggesting that children are actively involved in tempting them in any way?  Or that it is something besides temptation if there is no intent?  If the latter, I would disagree. Someone can be tempted to steal a car, an inanimate object unable to form intent to tempt. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

You are assuming the noun is exclusive rather than inclusive. To make it more clear I would have typed 's/he.'  Yes, I agree women can be predators also.

 

That doesn’t really make sense with what you wrote:

Quote

Anne McMullin and a few others seems, in their accusations, do not realize, imo, that they are operating out of a female toxicity that accuses all of these pedophiliac interactions men.

While men do perform the larger and very major number of such behaviors, women as a group are not exempt.

First, there was no “he” in your inaccurate appraisal (bolder) of her “female toxicity” to alter to s/he.  Second, if you meant “men and women” for “men”....you challenge her position by pointing out that women can be predators as well...which would be useless if you believed she was using “men” as generic for “men and women”.

[juliann]

I think an ongoing accusation of sexual harrassment against a prominent excommunicated podcaster is another example of the struggle the ex/post/whatever you want to label them community is having with acknowledging toxic male behavior amongst their own. This site gives a reasonable analysis of events https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/

I am not interested in the personalities involved in this. I am very, very interested in the attacks on the woman making the accusation, even as it seems popular to insist that the male in question does have questionable behavior. I was sent a link to the board that cannot be mentioned as an example of toxic behavior. It is not only the males doing this, BTW, so no need for NotAllMen.  The excuse making and attacks on a woman who was fired from her job after an ongoing sexual encounter with a superior seems cut and dry. This bottom line is obviously problematic so..... there is a 150 page display of stuff like this:

1. The woman is crazy, unstable, a liar [fill in your adjective, you get the drift.]

2. They were "equals" so it can't be harrassment. (in an organization which the male openly describes as his).  

3.  She deserved to be fired  because her business model was a financial failure. Repeat #1 for emphasis. (This even as something very similar to what she did is now being launched.) 

4.  It was 10 years ago. She should get over it, shut up, and move on.  

Again, not interested with making this about personalities. The go to excuse for this toxic behavior is that it was learned from the Mormon Church. My question remains, then why hasn't it been unlearned rather than openly embraced? 

[Chum]

15 minutes ago, juliann said:

I am not interested in the personalities involved in this. I am very, very interested in the attacks on the woman making the accusation, even as it seems popular to insist that the male in question does have questionable behavior.

It is my experience that men do a lot to nurture attacks on women who try to discuss the reality of their experiences.

A couple of years before MeToo, some guy out west (US) was serially assaulting (maybe murdering) women. My SM feed was full of women who where sharing stories of how their days were often a series of mistreatment by men. A day of sexual innuendos could be followed some guy aggressively following them - which sometimes turned terrifying.

Women were reasonably sick that men don't give a meaningful crap about their actual reality.

I brought up this fear and distress in Elders Quorum. I asked how we, as priesthood holders, could do more (or anything at all) to reduce the day to day risk and mistreatment that sisters lived with. The EQ pres was receptive and suggested that maybe we needed sisters to help guide us on this. He would make some inquiries among the sisters and get back to us.

After the meeting he was sidelined by brethren who strongly pushed back on addressing this notion in any way. They weren't suggesting it might be handled poorly but that this shouldn't be addressed in any way at all. To his credit, the EQP respectfully noted their concerns and took it to leadership anyway.

The following Sunday, the bishop's wife, a RS counselor and sister missionaries spoke to the quorum. In different ways they each confirmed it was routine for their day to day lives to come with a barrage of mistreatment, usually low-key, sometimes overt and on occasion terrifying. The severity waxed and waned from one environment to another. White collar workplaces weren't at all safer than blue collar. What the sisters could all expect was many tough moments in their future.

The sisters were also careful to point out that they weren't afraid of the brethren in that room because apparently, as a group, we needed that reassurance.

[Teancum]

On 10/15/2020 at 2:31 PM, juliann said:

Tom Kimball committed suicide yesterday. He was active in Mormon Studies. I had very brief interaction with him in my Claremont days.  It sounds bad, Lindsay Hansen Park says he was "prolific." (Almost all available information is on her FB page which seems to be public.) Apparently, there are victim statements and he was about to pay the price. Of interest is that he had participated in a podcast about....child abuse in the church.

I am not interested in details, what I am interested in is the difference in reactions to the same behavior when it occurs with practicing Mormons as opposed to critics of Mormonism. I have seen the same 'ol song, it is the upbringing in the church that invites sexual impropriety. I have seen a lot of apologetic responses as to what a good guy he was, a shocking number. It wasn't that long ago that Exponent II finally broke the silence about the surprising number of sexually predatory men in the exmo community preying on those leaving the church, they even named some..... with the same blaming of their Mormon past. 

I do not see practicing Mormons getting any careful treatment from the critics. And to be honest, I find it hard to believe that after all of this time no one had any awareness, thus responsibility, at all. It seems it should be just another story about how sexual abusers get away with it for so long rather than the walking on eggshells treatment I am seeing so far. 

 

Personally I think sexual predators are horrific no matter where they are from.  Mormon or ex Mormon or whatever.  From what I saw Tom Kimball did not get a pass in the comments from other groups I am involved in.  Thing is often sexual predators seem like quite nice and wonderful people.  You or I may have someone in our circle who is one and never know till it comes out.  

[juliann]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Personally I think sexual predators are horrific no matter where they are from.  Mormon or ex Mormon or whatever.  From what I saw Tom Kimball did not get a pass in the comments from other groups I am involved in.  Thing is often sexual predators seem like quite nice and wonderful people.  You or I may have someone in our circle who is one and never know till it comes out.  

It isn't about giving passes, it is about the hypocrisy when it is Mormon vs used to be Mormon.  Sexual abuse is rife in the exMo community if one listens to women, such as Exponent, yet they blame the church for their own problems. It is endemic. And it is mystifying in a group that claims to have gained superior enlightenment since leaving what they criticize. 

This circumstance is going to be different than child abuse because discussion groups would never, ever attack the child as this woman is being attacked. It is telling because the woman may be everything she is accused of....it makes no different as to whether harrassment occured. But they might as well be saying she shouldn't have gotten drunk, her clothes were too revealing, she shouldn't have been walking at night by herself....same crap to avoid having to blame the perpetrator. 

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Personally I think sexual predators are horrific no matter where they are from.  Mormon or ex Mormon or whatever. 

I don't really see anyone making a case that clearly dangerous sexual predators are safe if they belong to certain organizations.

 

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Thing is often sexual predators seem like quite nice and wonderful people.  You or I may have someone in our circle who is one and never know till it comes out.  

This seems to me to be an example of the mindset that Dangerous Threats Are Moments Away From Ripping Our Families Apart.  I have considered it's use and outcomes for a very long time. My take it that there is no evidence that carrying this notion around in our head brings any benefit.

[juliann]

53 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Personally I think sexual predators are horrific no matter where they are from.  Mormon or ex Mormon or whatever.  From what I saw Tom Kimball did not get a pass in the comments from other groups I am involved in.  Thing is often sexual predators seem like quite nice and wonderful people.  You or I may have someone in our circle who is one and never know till it comes out.  

On second thought, the reason it doesn't come out and we don't know is because of reactions like I have noted.  Or when it is made known and the victim is treated badly in an attempt to make them go away....which is what is happening in this instance. It's not even subtle. 

[Teancum]

42 minutes ago, juliann said:

It isn't about giving passes, it is about the hypocrisy when it is Mormon vs used to be Mormon.  Sexual abuse is rife in the exMo community if one listens to women, such as Exponent, yet they blame the church for their own problems. It is endemic. And it is mystifying in a group that claims to have gained superior enlightenment since leaving what they criticize. 

This circumstance is going to be different than child abuse because discussion groups would never, ever attack the child as this woman is being attacked. It is telling because the woman may be everything she is accused of....it makes no different as to whether harrassment occured. But they might as well be saying she shouldn't have gotten drunk, her clothes were too revealing, she shouldn't have been walking at night by herself....same crap to avoid having to blame the perpetrator. 

Sorry I am not seeing what you are apparently.  

[Kenngo1969]

17 hours ago, juliann said:

I think an ongoing accusation of sexual harrassment against a prominent excommunicated podcaster is another example of the struggle the ex/post/whatever you want to label them community is having with acknowledging toxic male behavior amongst their own. This site gives a reasonable analysis of events https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/

That's the front page of the site, where the post currently appears because it is recent.  However, it is likely to relinquish that place of prominence when subsequent posts are added.  So here is a link to the post itself: https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2021/05/13/john-dehlins-interaction-with-rosebud-in-light-of-osf-harassment-policy/

My overriding impression of John Dehlin after reading that?  What an egomaniac!  Get over yourself, Dude!

Edited May 17, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[JustAnAustralian]

That blog has certainly had a rush of posts since I last saw it. A lot more to it that I originally thought.

[Meadowchik]

On 5/16/2021 at 6:59 PM, juliann said:

My question remains, then why hasn't it been unlearned rather than openly embraced? 

This is such an important topic and I am glad that you have brought it up again.