Post Mormon reaction to child abusers from their own community

[Meadowchik]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am sorry to hear about your abuse, but I am not convinced of your suspicions.  You have no evidence for any of these theories.  I don't see any evidence that any abuse today stems from our polygamist past.  That is nonsense! 

Churches provide places where predators can seek out and groom victims. This is factual. A high degree of personal trust in leaders and church members like in the LDS church increases vulnerability to predation. This is logical. And it is very logical that the nature of LDS polygamy has a whole lot to do with the nature of church culture today. It's not nonsense at all. You can ask about it and do your own research if you really want to know if it is a viable theory, instead of being dismissive.

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Churches provide places where predators can seek out and groom victims. This is factual. A high degree of personal trust in leaders and church members like in the LDS church increases vulnerability to predation. This is logical. And it is very logical that the nature of LDS polygamy has a whole lot to do with the nature of church culture today. It's not nonsense at all. You can ask about it and do your own research if you really want to know if it is a viable theory, instead of being dismissive.

Society provides all kinds of places. Mostly homes. You really do need to come up with some documentation. I have nothing good to say about historical LDS polygamy but making it responsible for child abuse is beyond the pale. The existing criminal groups are more like cartels and it is intellectually dishonest to try and merge the two. 

[juliann]

45 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

 

I do think it’s bad form to use this horrible event to score points against exmos. 

I realize terminology is a problem. But I have tied this to two specific events, the Mofem reaction to the high number of exmo male sexual predators amongst them, this was published, and Sam Young's over the top crusade. And I have been relentlessly specific to "critics."  So don't exaggerate. Interesting you should see this very observable difference in reactions as a way to score points, however.  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, juliann said:

I realize terminology is a problem. But I have tied this to two specific events, the Mofem reaction to the high number of exmo male sexual predators amongst them, this was published, and Sam Young's over the top crusade. And I have been relentlessly specific to "critics."  So don't exaggerate. Interesting you should see this very observable difference in reactions as a way to score points, however.  

You said you were talking about the post-Mormon community. If you meant “critics,” that’s different. 

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Churches provide places where predators can seek out and groom victims. This is factual. A high degree of personal trust in leaders and church members like in the LDS church increases vulnerability to predation. This is logical. And it is very logical that the nature of LDS polygamy has a whole lot to do with the nature of church culture today. It's not nonsense at all. You can ask about it and do your own research if you really want to know if it is a viable theory, instead of being dismissive.

Homes provide places where predators can seek out and groom victims.  Schools. Work. Playgrounds.  Nature provides place.   Trust in anyone increases vulnerability to predation.  

It is not fair to suggest that because you trusted someone, and they took advantage of your trust and molested your child, that you somehow enabled the abuse.  Is that fair to place on a parent?  What about the victim?  "Your own faith is responsible for your abuse."   There is only so much an organization of this size can do to protect.  I think they have taken appropriate measures.  They may not protect everyone, but nothing will, and there must be balance.  No organization is immune. 

28 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

And it is very logical that the nature of LDS polygamy has a whole lot to do with the nature of church culture today. It's not nonsense at all. 

It is illogical however to suggest that our polygamist past has lead to a culture today which "enables rape and other forms of sexual abuse", as you put it.  That is NOT our culture today!  That is nonsense.  It is hard not to take such comments personal when I am our culture and our culture is me.  I am a part of it.  That makes ME culpable to some degree.   I don't identify with the accusations you make.  It is disgraceful.

Edited October 15, 2020 by pogi

[juliann]

17 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I've known Tom for some years now, and all of this news has left me moving between numb, sadness, and anger. I don't think the loving (though quick to anger and burning bridges left and right) person I knew was a facade, but was just one part of a very troubled person who was in combat with his other parts. Though he stopped believing and being an active member years ago, I never considered him (nor do I think he considered himself) a post Mormon. He spent the last few years caring for and repairing the Kirtland Temple, while likely simultaneously trying to hide from his crimes. He loved that building more than probably anyone else has since the Saints were in Kirtland. He would also get really angry when talking about Joseph Smith, and with hindsight I'm guessing that involved a lot of projection of what he thought of himself and his own actions.

I wish the friend that I knew who always came by to chat and straighten out my books didn't leave a legacy of pain and trauma that he inflicted on others. This is just sadness all around.

I'm sorry for your pain. Whatever you want to call his church status, he certainly was not a practicing Mormon (LDS). And he most certainly was a critic although I found him likeable. 

So let's not make terminology the issue here. 

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You said you were talking about the post-Mormon community. If you meant “critics,” that’s different. 

From my OP,

Quote

I am not interested in details, what I am interested in is the difference in reactions to the same behavior when it occurs with practicing Mormons as opposed to critics of Mormonism. 

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, juliann said:

From my OP,

 

Then perhaps you should have been clearer in the headline. 

[Meadowchik]

4 minutes ago, juliann said:

Society provides all kinds of places. Mostly homes. You really do need to come up with some documentation. I have nothing good to say about historical LDS polygamy but making it responsible for child abuse is beyond the pale. The existing criminal groups are more like cartels and it is intellectually dishonest to try and merge the two. 

I think it is unfortunate that you're mischaracterizing. I am not conflating the COJCOLDS with current criminal so-called offshoots. I am talking about its own culture and the artifacts of spiritually-coercive polygamy which persist in it.

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Homes provide places where predators can seek out and groom victims.  Schools. Work. Playgrounds.  Nature provides place.   Trust in anyone increases vulnerability to predation.  

It is not fair to suggest that because you trusted someone, and they took advantage of your trust and molested your child, that you somehow enabled the abuse.  Is that fair to place on a parent?  What about the victim?  "Your own faith is responsible for your abuse."   There is only so much an organization of this size can do to protect.  I think they have taken appropriate measures.  They may not protect everyone, but nothing will, and there must be balance.  No organization is immune. 

It is illogical however to suggest that our polygamist past has lead to a culture today which "enables rape and other forms of sexual abuse", as you put it.  That is NOT our culture today!  That is nonsense.  It is hard not to take such comments personal when I am our culture and our culture is me.  I am a part of it.  That makes ME culpable to some degree.   I don't identify with the accusations you make.  It is disgraceful.

Why is it illogical? Do you think that our polygamous past has no impact of the culture of the church today?

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think it is unfortunate that you're mischaracterizing. I am not conflating the COJCOLDS with current criminal so-called offshoots. I am talking about its own culture and the artifacts of spiritually-coercive polygamy which persist in it.

You are the one merging the two when you say that church culture produces the same thing via polygamy, child abuse. So document. 

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Why is it illogical? Do you think that our polygamous past has no impact of the culture of the church today?

Child abuse? No.

[Meadowchik]

Just now, juliann said:

You are the one merging the two when you say that church culture produces the same thing via polygamy, child abuse. So document. 

I did not say that "church culture produces the same thing via polygamy, child abuse." I don't think you're listening to me.

[juliann]

Another "what a great guy....." complete with a smiling photo of her having the time of her life.  I usually like Reiss' work, this kind of thing is unfortunate when it is clear he has left a swath of victims.  

/religionnews.com/2020/10/15/suicide-complicated-grief-and-the-hidden-darkness-of-the-heart/?fbclid=IwAR2HIU_eZxRFwne9bsD0w3h6Ad416i_QNGfn30iqZwWmvrSgEpldLSq7K2U

[the narrator]

5 hours ago, juliann said:

what I am interested in is the difference in reactions to the same behavior when it occurs with practicing Mormons as opposed to critics of Mormonism.

Someone in r/exmormon suggested defecating on his grave, so it's probably about the same.

[juliann]

4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I did not say that "church culture produces the same thing via polygamy, child abuse." I don't think you're listening to me.

You said, among other things, 

Quote

Churches provide places where predators can seek out and groom victims. This is factual. A high degree of personal trust in leaders and church members like in the LDS church increases vulnerability to predation. This is logical. And it is very logical that the nature of LDS polygamy has a whole lot to do with the nature of church culture today. 

Looks pretty clear to me.  Polygamy = church culture = predation

[rodheadlee]

Tom has not escaped anything, I know because I have been dead before. See Mosiah 2:38-39.

Edited October 16, 2020 by rodheadlee

[Meadowchik]

1 minute ago, juliann said:

Another "what a great guy....." complete with a smiling photo of her having the time of her life.  I usually like Reiss' work, this kind of thing is unfortunate when it is clear he has left a swath of victims.  

/religionnews.com/2020/10/15/suicide-complicated-grief-and-the-hidden-darkness-of-the-heart/?fbclid=IwAR2HIU_eZxRFwne9bsD0w3h6Ad416i_QNGfn30iqZwWmvrSgEpldLSq7K2U

This might be a very productive lead into conversations, though. This is what abusers look like. They can be likable and look like genuinely lovely people. But what Riess does here, as clumsily as it may be, is she says simultaneously that how wonderful he seemed while being someone who has done great harm. This is I think a very hard, difficult human reality. It might be one of the hardest parts about confronting evil is we want to believe that we will recognize it when we see it. But we don't. We can be fooled and people can get hurt.

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Why is it illogical? Do you think that our polygamous past has no impact of the culture of the church today?

Are you accusing me of enabling rape and sexual coercion?  Such a thing would be "illogical". wouldn't it?  Accusing my culture of such things is to make me culpable.  That is nonsense.   My ancestors were mostly polygamists.  It is not just in my church culture, it is in my personal family culture and history (not very many generations back).  I don't see any evidence of spiritual or sexual coerciveness, rape culture, or enabling of sexual abuse in my family history.  I am not ignorant of our history either.  I have researched it from many angles.  I have never experienced it in my life, even though I am a descendent of it.  I have never seen it in my family.  I was raised with different values which were modeled for me at church and at home.  The culture you describe is foreign to me.  How do you make sense of that?  Nothing even close.  I can say unequivocally that no, polygamy has made ZERO impact on my family and church culture, in the ways you suggest.  Rape is not our culture.  Sexual coerciveness is not our culture.  Enabling is not our culture.  I am proud of my family and church culture and I do take your accusations personally.  How could I not?  To accuse me of participating in such evil culture is unfair.   

Edited October 15, 2020 by pogi

[Meadowchik]

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

You said, among other things, 

Looks pretty clear to me.  Polygamy = church culture = predation

And yet you continue to mischaracterize. Influence is not equivalence. 

Influence is still powerful and if we discover ways where we are unintentionally enabling harm, I think we as human beings are obligated to do better. The church has in fact made some changes over the years, some more recent than others. That's great! 

[Calm]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

There are plenty of men who were abused as children, but because they are men they "will probably never understand."

There are plenty of men who are abused as adults as well. Some people don’t understand in my experience that women can rape men.  Rape is forced sex, arousal can occur even when in fear for one’s life, something anyone who has experienced that may feel immense shame about when it is basic biology. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males

Edited October 16, 2020 by Calm

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

And yet you continue to mischaracterize. Influence is not equivalence. 

Please provide ANY evidence of any influence of rape culture, etc.   If it is so prevalent and rampant that our culture is defined by it, it shouldn't be hard to provide. 

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you accusing me of enabling rape and sexual coercion?  Such a thing would be "illogical". wouldn't it?  Accusing my culture of such things is to make me culpable.  That is nonsense.   My ancestors were mostly polygamists.  It is not just in my church culture, it is in my personal family culture and history (not very many generations back).  I don't see any evidence of spiritual or sexual coerciveness, rape culture, or enabling of sexual abuse in my family history.   I have never experienced it in my life, even though I am a descendent of it.  I have never seen it in my family.  I was raised with different values which were modeled for me at church and at home.  The culture you describe is foreign to me.  How do you make sense of that?  Nothing even close.  I can say unequivocally that no, polygamy has made ZERO impact on my family and church culture, in the ways you suggest.  Rape is not our culture.  Sexual coerciveness is not our culture.  Enabling is not our culture.  I am proud of my family and church culture and I do take your accusations personally.  How could I not?  To accuse me of participating in such evil culture is unfair.   

Well if you have never understood polygamy as being spiritually coercive, then of course I would not expect you to see it as having that kind of influence on the culture.

[Meadowchik]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Please provide ANY evidence of any influence of rape culture, etc.   If it is so prevalent and rampant that our culture is defined by it, it shouldn't be hard to provide. 

The LDS emphasis on modesty being part of a female's responsibility to help men resist sexual temptation.

The LDS emphasis on male spiritual leadership diminishing a female's ability to consent.

The LDS emphasis on sexual purity being paramount and linking being raped to being unclean.

 

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Well if you have never understood polygamy as being spiritually coercive, then of course I would not expect you to see it as having that kind of influence on the culture.

I see, so it is not that it is not rampant in our culture and is happening all around me. It is not that I am not apart of it, it is that I am simply blind to it because I don't see it that way.  I can't see that it is wrong to use my priesthood to coerce my wife into sex, right?  I can't see that rape culture is wrong because my ancestors were polygamists.  I can't understand that "no" means "no' because of our polygamist past.  Raping is righteousness and a sign of priesthood power to me.   I am blind to what sexual abuse really is and what enabling looks like, because to me it all looks like righteousness, because my ancestors were polygamists, right?    This is my culture.  This is who I am.