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The natural man versus a saint


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25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I have noticed several times that he is not even aware of these doctrines much less the ideas themselves.

I think he is a troll- he persists in asking questions which are not even coherent from our perspectives because he does not know what we believe,  He thinks he has found a "gotcha" which is not even a real issue for us.

I now believe this is the most likely explanation, Mark. There’s always a big letdown when a troll thinks he’s found the ultimate gotcha question that will finally pin those pesky Mormons against the wall, but then the seemingly devastating rhetorical weapon ends up being an ineffectual dud. Either that or there’s an inability to stretch the mind to accommodate the perfect love and abundant mercy of God.

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Iirc, tel has stated before they are not a member. I believe they shared they were Protestant. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Iirc, tel has stated before they are not a member. I believe they shared they were Protestant. 

Ok fine then.

It seems to me I have asked him before and he insisted he was LDS.   I suppose it would be easy enough to look up if anybody cares enough to do so.  But it seems the stuff he brings up are straight out of a really bad anti-Mormon site.

No we don't eat babies in the temple.  ;)

 

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On 11/21/2020 at 4:30 PM, teddyaware said:

Now you’ve got me wondering if you’re a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you are a member of the Church, have you not been taught about God’s plan of salvation for the dead? Have you not read and understood Doctrine and Covenants 138 which teaches, in perfect plainness, that those who once rejected the prophets and the message of salvation while on earth are given the opportunity to again be taught the gospel and accept its saving message in the spirit world after death?

Again, why do you not seem to understand that the death of the mortal body doesn’t occur in the eyes of God until that day when temple work for the dead comes to an end, and there are no longer living proxies who vicariously stand in for the dead and receive the ordinances of salvation as if they are alive in the flesh and standing in the presence of the temple officiators?

The apostle Peter reveals he perfectly understood the wonderfully merciful doctrines pertaining to the salvation of the dead when he taught that even the desperately wicked spirits who died in the flood of judgement of Noah’s day are given the opportunity to again be taught the gospel, embrace its saving message, and thereafter be judged by God as if they are still living in the flesh.

No, I am not a member.  Thank you for that information. I just saw things written in other
parts of the Book of Mormon that said differently.

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3 hours ago, telnetd said:

No, I am not a member.  Thank you for that information. I just saw things written in other
parts of the Book of Mormon that said differently.

Do you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to the dead who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel message prior to death?

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On 11/21/2020 at 4:30 PM, teddyaware said:

If you are a member of the Church, have you not been taught about God’s plan of salvation for the dead? Have you not read and understood Doctrine and Covenants 138 which teaches, in perfect plainness, that those who once rejected the prophets and the message of salvation while on earth are given the opportunity to again be taught the gospel and accept its saving message in the spirit world after death

Wikipedia gives an approximation of the top genocides by death in the last few hundred years.

Has the LDS Church performed proxy baptisms for the Nazis (including Hitler) and the Khmer
Rouge soldiers (including Pol Pot) and believes these wicked people have been saved?

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4 hours ago, theplains said:

Wikipedia gives an approximation of the top genocides by death in the last few hundred years.

Has the LDS Church performed proxy baptisms for the Nazis (including Hitler) and the Khmer
Rouge soldiers (including Pol Pot) and believes these wicked people have been saved?

 

4 hours ago, theplains said:

Wikipedia gives an approximation of the top genocides by death in the last few hundred years.

Has the LDS Church performed proxy baptisms for the Nazis (including Hitler) and the Khmer
Rouge soldiers (including Pol Pot) and believes these wicked people have been saved?

For all who have not committed the unpardonable sin, there is a possibility of being saved. By very definition, pardonable sins are pardonable. And since the atoning sacrifice of Christ is infinite and eternal in saving power, scope and efficacy, all sins are forgivable except for the sins of those who don’t want to be forgiven. The ultimate reason why some sins are unforgivable is because God can’t forgive the sins of those who steadfastly refuse to come unto Christ in humble repentance even up to the moment of the final judgement when there is “time no more.”

As far as whether or not the bloody tyrants you mention have repented of their crimes and received forgiveness, short of receiving a special revelation from God there’s no way of knowing their fate until the the day of the final judgement. But one thing we Latter-Day Saints know for sure is that the wicked who have committed the worst crimes against God and man are punished in the fires of hell for at least a thousand years in order to determine if they are capable of humbling themselves enough to obtain forgiveness for their crimes.

Christ’s atonement is of such limitless salvific power that if a person demonstrates he is capable of feeling genuine remorse of conscience and  repenting with a broken heart and  authentic contrition, he can at least be saved in the lowest heavenly realm of post-resurrection heavenly glory. And since the redemptive power of Christ can completely undo and fully heal the baleful effects of all the crimes and injustices that have ever been committed, there is no need to punish a criminal forever because the damage he creates is temporary.

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1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

 

For all who have not committed the unpardonable sin, there is a possibility of being saved. By very definition, pardonable sins are pardonable. And since the atoning sacrifice of Christ is infinite and eternal in saving power, scope and efficacy, all sins are forgivable except for the sins of those who don’t want to be forgiven. The ultimate reason why some sins are unforgivable is because God can’t forgive the sins of those who steadfastly refuse to come unto Christ in humble repentance even up to the moment of the final judgement when there is “time no more.”

As far as whether or not the bloody tyrants you mention have repented of their crimes and received forgiveness, short of receiving a special revelation from God there’s no way of knowing their fate until the the day of the final judgement. But one thing we Latter-Day Saints know for sure is that the wicked who have committed the worst crimes against God and man are punished in the fires of hell for at least a thousand years in order to determine if they are capable of humbling themselves enough to obtain forgiveness for their crimes.

Christ’s atonement is of such limitless salvific power that if a person demonstrates he is capable of feeling genuine remorse of conscience and repents with a broken heart and  authentic contrition, he can at least be saved in the lowest heavenly realm of post-resurrection glory. And since the redemptive power of Christ can completely undo and fully heal the baleful effects of all the crimes and injustices that have ever been committed, there is no need to punish a criminal forever because the damage he creates is temporary.

 

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On 11/29/2020 at 12:10 AM, teddyaware said:

Do you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to the dead who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel message prior to death?

I believe so.  But I would add that it might be only to those whom God knew would have accepted
it. I don't believe those who rejected the gospel or accepted a false gospel will have a second
chance after death.

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41 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I believe so.  But I would add that it might be only to those whom God knew would have accepted
it. I don't believe those who rejected the gospel or accepted a false gospel will have a second
chance after death.

I’m very grateful I don’t have to live with the terrible burden of believing in a God who would give up so easily on his children. As a believing Latter-Day Saint, I rejoice in Doctrine and Covenants 138 that testifies the God of perfect love continues to extend his arm of mercy to those deceased souls who rejected him on earth.

What’s the difference between a believer who rejects Christ on his 25th birthday and remains an adamant atheist for his entire life until his 90th birthday when he repents of his atheism and sincerely accepts Christ as Lord, and a former believer who tragically dies in a car accident on his 25th birthday before he has the chance to come back to the Lord? Do you think it’s fair that the 90 year-old had 65 more years to repent and come to Christ than the man who died at 25?

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On 11/29/2020 at 5:41 PM, teddyaware said:

But one thing we Latter-Day Saints know for sure is that the wicked who have committed the worst crimes against God and man are punished in the fires of hell for at least a thousand years in order to determine if they are capable of humbling themselves enough to obtain forgiveness for their crimes.

Thanks.

Do you have a reference for that 1,000 years in the fires of hell part?

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3 hours ago, theplains said:

Thanks.

Do you have a reference for that 1,000 years in the fires of hell part?

As an example, the wicked and rebellious who are destroyed in the flesh at the time of the Second Coming will remain in the spirit prison (hell) for over a thousand years and will not be freed from their incarceration until the last resurrection. But among those who will not be resurrected until the last resurrection will be those wretched souls who, even though they’ve spent over a thousand years suffering for their sins in hell, will continue to adamantly refuse to come unto Christ, repent and receive mercy at his hand. The souls in this last group are known as the sons of perdition, those who will spend  eternity in hell because they would rather spend eternity in hell than exist in the presence of God. God will grant them their wish because it’s against his nature to force men into heaven.

* A clarification on my 1,000 year comment: Some will spend less than a thousand years suffering for their sins in hell because, sooner than some, their spiritual sufferings will bring them to genuine remorse of conscience, authentic contrition and sincere repentance sooner than others. Because God is just and merciful he will cause no man to suffer in hell any longer than they he needs to.

Edited by teddyaware
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On 12/5/2020 at 11:48 AM, teddyaware said:

The souls in this last group are known as the sons of perdition, those who will spend  eternity in hell because they would rather spend eternity in hell than exist in the presence of God.

From my understanding of LDS theology, many people will eternally be separated from God's
presence when they are designated to various kingdoms of glory.

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19 minutes ago, theplains said:

From my understanding of LDS theology, many people will eternally be separated from God's
presence when they are designated to various kingdoms of glory.

Depends on who you mean by God.  You believe the Holy Spirit is God, don't you?  And that Jesus is God, too?  And that our Father in heaven is also God?  So basically you believe as we do.  Only those in Hell will not be in the presence of God.

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On 12/4/2020 at 3:36 PM, teddyaware said:

What’s the difference between a believer who rejects Christ on his 25th birthday and remains an adamant atheist for his entire life until his 90th birthday when he repents of his atheism and sincerely accepts Christ as Lord, and a former believer who tragically dies in a car accident on his 25th birthday before he has the chance to come back to the Lord? Do you think it’s fair that the 90 year-old had 65 more years to repent and come to Christ than the man who died at 25?

While I am not addressing your question directly, I think the parable of the laborers in
the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16) might apply.  Those who started working earlier thought 
it unfair that they would get the same wages as those who entered the field late in the 
day.

We never know when our life will end, so we should always be prepared.

Hebrews 3:15 - To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the 
provocation.

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22 hours ago, Ahab said:

Depends on who you mean by God.  You believe the Holy Spirit is God, don't you?  And that Jesus is God, too?  And that our Father in heaven is also God?  So basically you believe as we do.  Only those in Hell will not be in the presence of God.

I believe the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three personages in one Godhead, existing
as one God, hard as that may be to explain.  I don't believe Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ 
became Gods.

How do you understand the phrase "in the presence of God" as it applied to Adam and Eve when
they were banished from the garden of Eden and all the other people who don't endure to the end?

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On 12/10/2020 at 10:04 PM, telnetd said:

While I am not addressing your question directly, I think the parable of the laborers in
the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16) might apply.  Those who started working earlier thought 
it unfair that they would get the same wages as those who entered the field late in the 
day.

We never know when our life will end, so we should always be prepared.

Hebrews 3:15 - To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the 
provocation.

The verses you quote from Matthew only tend to validate the principle of repentance being available to all, except for the sons of perdition, at any point in time prior to the last resurrection. Because God perfectly perfectly merciful and perfectly loving just there is no rational reason why he would not want to extend the blessing of salvation to all who sincerely repent, including those formerly rebellious latecomers who, thankfully, wake and accept the truth prior to the final judgement.

Edited by teddyaware
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On 12/11/2020 at 1:39 PM, theplains said:

I believe the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three personages in one Godhead, existing as one God, hard as that may be to explain. 

Yes but what is the "Godhead" exactly?  A head that all 3 of those persons who are God share, with a "head" referring to a role of leadership, maybe?  # persons who lead all of the rest of us, working in conjunction with our Father in heaven, maybe?

You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

On 12/11/2020 at 1:39 PM, theplains said:

I don't believe Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ became Gods.

Yeah we don't believe that, either.  Not really. We believe they grew in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man but that they always were the same kind of being they still are and always will be.

On 12/11/2020 at 1:39 PM, theplains said:

How do you understand the phrase "in the presence of God" as it applied to Adam and Eve when they were banished from the garden of Eden and all the other people who don't endure to the end?

That they were then no longer in the presence of a particular person or persons who were God then even though God was and still is everywhere.

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On 12/12/2020 at 1:46 AM, teddyaware said:

The verses you quote from Matthew only tend to validate the principle of repentance being available to all, except for the sons of perdition, at any point in time prior to the last resurrection. Because God perfectly perfectly merciful and perfectly loving just there is no rational reason why he would not want to extend the blessing of salvation to all who sincerely repent, including those formerly rebellious latecomers who, thankfully, wake and accept the truth prior to the final judgement.

What of the passage on page 12 of The Plan of Salvation? - "Death will not change your personality or your
desire for good or evil
".

Will you still have people in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms desiring evil?

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50 minutes ago, telnetd said:

What of the passage on page 12 of The Plan of Salvation? - "Death will not change your personality or your
desire for good or evil
".

Will you still have people in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms desiring evil?

I think you meant to ask him if he thinks there will be any people in those lower regions of heaven who will desire to do something evil.  Otherwise what did you mean by asking him if he would have people there who desire evil???

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1 hour ago, telnetd said:

What of the passage on page 12 of The Plan of Salvation? - "Death will not change your personality or your
desire for good or evil
".

Will you still have people in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms desiring evil?

Ahhh, another perfect example that serves to illustrate the folly of taking quotes out of context, and deliberately (or perhaps unwittingly) misleading by not including the clarifying lines that immediately preceded and/or follow the quote. What follows are the lines that immediately follow what you quoted...

“Heavenly Father knew that many of His children would never have an opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ during their lives and that others would choose not to follow Him. Because He loves His children, God provided a way for those in the spirit world to learn about His plan, have faith in Jesus Christ, and repent. Those who accept and follow Jesus Christ will have peace and rest.”

 

Edited by teddyaware
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20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

“Heavenly Father knew that many of His children would never have an opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ during their lives and that others would choose not to follow Him. Because He loves His children, God provided a way for those in the spirit world to learn about His plan, have faith in Jesus Christ, and repent. Those who accept and follow Jesus Christ will have peace and rest.”

Page 14 of the same booklet gives these definitions of the Terrestrial and Telestial 
kingdom.  I will put an emphasis with square brackets.  Let me know if I am 
understanding it correctly based on what I inserted.
 
Terrestrial kingdom - People who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ [in
the spirit world]
but who live honorable lives [in their mortal life] will receive 
a place in the terrestrial kingdom.

Telestial kingdom - Those who continue in their sins [and die] and do not repent
[in the spirit world] will receive a place in the telestial kingdom.

If I have it wrong, would you specify exactly how those two definitions should
be worded. Thanks.

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On 12/15/2020 at 8:35 PM, Ahab said:

I think you meant to ask him if he thinks there will be any people in those lower regions of heaven who will desire to do something evil.  Otherwise what did you mean by asking him if he would have people there who desire evil???

What I meant was if death does not change one's personality or one's desire for good
or evil (as the Plan of Salvation states), then you have some people who are resurrected
with their desire for evil intact.  If they had an evil personality in death, then they will
continue to have an evil personality in the resurrection.

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On 12/20/2020 at 11:59 AM, telnetd said:

What I meant was if death does not change one's personality or one's desire for good
or evil (as the Plan of Salvation states), then you have some people who are resurrected
with their desire for evil intact.  If they had an evil personality in death, then they will
continue to have an evil personality in the resurrection.

That would be true unless maybe that person changed his or her personality, or what we might call mind.

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On 12/21/2020 at 3:24 PM, Ahab said:

That would be true unless maybe that person changed his or her personality, or what we might call mind.

I agree with you but the scenario of a "maybe" is not an option when the Plan of Salvation says "Death
will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil
"

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