let’s roll Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: A very generous notion. Granted that on a percentage basis it is small, but when I think of it in terms of numbers—6 billion personages of spirit—the number feels far more tragic than generous. 2 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, let’s roll said: Granted that on a percentage basis it is small, but when I think of it in terms of numbers—6 billion personages of spirit—the number feels far more tragic than generous. You are far more upbeat and generous that I am. I take the one-third figure as a literal one-third of all the heavenly host. Even knowing God personally was not enough to stop their wilful disobedience. Now, where have we seen that before? On this earth. Evil is not unusual. It is banal. Truly banal. 3 Link to comment
stemelbow Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 On 10/17/2020 at 9:53 AM, pogi said: Sorry, I meant that you are twisting my interpretation. I made it clear that the natural man was not a person. Nothing else is identified as an enemy in this passage. No who. As I stated previously, the only true enemies in God’s eyes are the sons of perdition. I think that we can act in enmity towards God, pitting our will against his, but his grace is extended still. I don’t think that seeing this as a metaphor is the same as concluding the opposite. I think my interpretation holds together well and is consistent with the gospel message and nature of God. I do find your beliefs more palpable then scriptural teaching. Unfortunately this passage is not suggesting only sons of perdition are God's enemies. I realize you see this passage differently, but I think I've noted and still maintain I don't find your interpretation reasonable. Link to comment
pogi Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I do find your beliefs more palpable then scriptural teaching. Unfortunately this passage is not suggesting only sons of perdition are God's enemies. I realize you see this passage differently, but I think I've noted and still maintain I don't find your interpretation reasonable. How do you explain, “for God so loved the world...”? How do you explain “while we were yet still sinners...” How do you explain salvation through the atonement of Christ for all mankind? If we are all his enemies (as we all have the natural man in us) why would he not just obliterate us all to outer darkness? I think it is your interpretation that is unreasonable. I don’t blame you for not believing in such a nasty being. I don’t need your interpretation, I know him personally as a sinner with the natural man alive within me. There are few things I know - one is that God loves me with my weaknesses and all. That is as tangible as anything. He doesn’t view me as an enemy. I know that. Edited October 19, 2020 by pogi 3 Link to comment
stemelbow Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) 53 minutes ago, pogi said: How do you explain, “for God so loved the world...”? How do you explain “while we were yet still sinners...” How do you explain salvation through the atonement of Christ for all mankind? If we are all his enemies (as we all have the natural man in us) why would he not just obliterate us all to outer darkness? I think it is your interpretation that is unreasonable. I don’t blame you for not believing in such a nasty being. I don’t need your interpretation, I know him personally as a sinner with the natural man alive within me. There are few things I know - one is that God loves me with my weaknesses and all. That is as tangible as anything. He doesn’t view me as an enemy. I know that. I don't feel to compelled to account for the contradictions of scripture. There are too many and they are too problematic. I don't see believers really account for them or even attempt to, very often. I get the desire to read some passage in light of your preferences and your personal reading of others. I do. I'd do the same. But I don't think it works. Who are God's enemies? Those who do not yield to the enticings of the spirt, those who fail to put off the natural man, those who fail to become a saint through the atonement? Is that not true? Who is potentially an enemy of God forever and ever? If you are saying you haven't put off the natural man, or you struggle to, then, no doubt that makes sense in relation to reality. We all will find times to be inappropriately selfish or angry. But as per this scripture, if you fail to, then you are God's enemy. I get you don't see it that way, but I don't see how else to interpret it, even though I grant anyone can read it however he/she wants. But, it seems to me, God can both find enemies and yet claim to say he loved the world. He can both say he hates the world and loves it. Because as I picture it, as scripture describes him, he's not consistent or caring anyway. He seems more prone to get mad at someone who says his name wrong and at the wrong time, then when someone follows cultural preference and takes and abuses a slave, as one example. But in all of scripture he seems to be talking about and favoring a certain subset of people, particularly when he speaks of positive things. When he says something in scripture it tends to come off, at least to me, as if He's preferencing some people over others. If that is just the mistakes of men, then we end up with no scripture at all, when we get to the bottom of it. Nah...I don't blame believers who see scriptural wisdom and interpret it to mean something other than it says. To me, that would be the only way to have your belief survive. Edited October 19, 2020 by stemelbow Link to comment
telnetd Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 On 10/15/2020 at 4:27 PM, Ahab said: Which teachings confuse you, and what is it about them that you don't understand? It seems to describe the telestials and telestrials as not being happy since death did not change their desire for evil. Link to comment
telnetd Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) On 10/15/2020 at 7:50 PM, teddyaware said: All incorrect. The reason why you are confused is because the individuals who wrote those things are also confused or fail to understand their own scriptures. Carefully read and ponder Doctrine and Covenants 138 for the last scriptural word (so far) on the subject. If you don’t carefully read and ponder 138, please don’t bother to get back to me because all the answers you’re seeking are found in that profound and glorious portion of scripture. Do you mean all I quoted from The Plan of Salvation booklet is incorrect ... especially that death does not change one's desire for evil? It is also mentioned in Alma 40:13,26 and 41:4. The wicked/evil people seem to fall into these two categories: "people who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ" "those who continue in their sins and do not repent" I read Doctrine and Covenants 138 but it does not say anything about happiness or joy for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants. However, I see a mention of those who will receive exaltation (a fulness of joy) in verse 17. Edited November 3, 2020 by telnetd fixed grammar Link to comment
theplains Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 43 minutes ago, telnetd said: Do you mean all I quoted from The Plan of Salvation booklet is incorrect ... especially that death does not change one's desire for evil? It is also mentioned in Alma 40:13,26 and 41:4. You could also include Alma 11:40-41. And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else. Therefore the wicked [i.e. those who don't have eternal life] remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works." There are several other sections which show that the wicked (those who reject Christ) do not get a second chance after death. Borrowing a term from Islamic theology, the Doctrine and Covenants abrogates some of the Book of Mormon. Link to comment
teddyaware Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, telnetd said: Do you mean all I quoted from The Plan of Salvation booklet is incorrect ... especially that death does not change one's desire for evil? It is also mentioned in Alma 40:13,26 and 41:4. The wicked/evil people seem to fall into these two categories: "people who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ" "those who continue in their sins and do not repent" I read Doctrine and Covenants 138 but it does not say anything about happiness or joy for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants. However, I see a mention of those who will receive exaltation (a fulness of joy) in verse 17. Yes, what you quoted from the Plan of Salvation Booklet is incorrect. The error of the writers likely stems from an incorrect understanding of D&C 76, D&C 138 and Alma. D&C 138 most definitely testifies that many of the dead in the spirit world do repent of their earthly desires for evil. If this were not so, why would commissioned missionaries in the post-earthly spirit world be sent to preach the gospel of forgiveness and redemption to the spirits of those who were wicked and rebellious while they sojourned on earth? if such souls are incapable of genuine repentance and redemption, what would be the point of preaching to them? Joseph F Smith’s revelation makes it perfectly clear that those who were wicked and rebellious on earth are capable of genuine repentance and spiritual conversion.. Read D&C 138 again with an open mind. Many members of the Church fail to understand that Alma’s “day of this life” refers to the entire fallen state, which includes the time we spend in the spirit world prior to the resurrection. Also, many members also fail to realize that, at least insofar as the mercy and justice of God are concerned, the death of the mortal body for each individual does not officially occur until the day when the vicarious ordinance work for the dead in the temples comes to an end. Until that time, when temple work comes to an end, the departed spirits of the dead are, as the apostle Peter proclaimed, able to be judged according to men in the flesh because the repent and live according to the Spirit while in the pre-resurrection spirit world. Finally, members also often fail to grasp that when Alma teaches us that the same spirit which possesses our bodies while mortality will have the power to possess our bodies in the eternal world, he is not speaking of the time spent in the spirit world after death but of the time after resurrection. If he was referring to the time our spirits spend in spirit world he would have said that the same spirit which possesses our bodies while living on earth will have the power to possess our spirits in the spirit world, but that’s not what he says. He says possess our body. So what Alma is saying is if you don’t come unto Christ and repent prior to the resurrection, you will not be able to do so after the resurrection. This is the time when the apostle John says that the filthy who fail to repent prior to the resurrection will remain ‘filthy still” (unforgiven) after the resurrection. This is the state of the sons of perdition. Edited November 3, 2020 by teddyaware Link to comment
Ahab Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 On 11/2/2020 at 6:39 PM, telnetd said: It seems to describe the telestials and telestrials as not being happy since death did not change their desire for evil. Okay. What is it about that idea that is confusing to you? Link to comment
teddyaware Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) On 11/3/2020 at 7:29 AM, teddyaware said: Yes, what you quoted from the Plan of Salvation Booklet is incorrect. The error of the writers likely stems from an incorrect understanding of D&C 76, D&C 138 and Alma. D&C 138 most definitely testifies that many of the dead in the spirit world do repent of their earthly desires for evil. If this were not so, why would commissioned missionaries in the post-earthly spirit world be sent to preach the gospel of forgiveness and redemption to the spirits of those who were wicked and rebellious while they sojourned on earth? if such souls are incapable of genuine repentance and redemption, what would be the point of preaching to them? Joseph F Smith’s revelation makes it perfectly clear that those who were wicked and rebellious on earth are capable of genuine repentance and spiritual conversion.. Read D&C 138 again with an open mind. It also needs to be understood that many members of the Church fail to understand that Alma’s “day of this life” refers to the entire fallen state, which includes the time we spend in the spirit world prior to the resurrection. Also, many members fail to realize that, at least insofar as the mercy and justice of God are concerned, the death of the mortal body for each individual does not officially occur until the day when the vicarious ordinance work for the dead in the temples comes to an end. Until that time (when temple work comes to an end) the departed spirits of the dead are, as the apostle Peter proclaimed, able to be judged according to men in the flesh because they can repent and live according to the God’s will while in the pre-resurrection spirit world. Finally, members also often fail to grasp that when Alma teaches us that the same spirit which possesses our bodies while mortality will have the power to possess our bodies in the eternal world, he is not speaking of the time spent in the spirit world after death but of the time after resurrection. If he was referring to the time our spirits spend in spirit world he would have said that the same spirit which possesses our bodies while living on earth will have the power to possess our spirits in the spirit world, but that’s not what he says. He says possess our bodies. So what Alma is saying is if you don’t come unto Christ and repent prior to the resurrection, you will not be able to do so after the resurrection. This time after the resurrection is when the apostle John says that the filthy who fail to repent prior to the resurrection will remain ‘filthy still” (unforgiven) after the resurrection. This is the state of the sons of perdition. Edited November 6, 2020 by teddyaware Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) I think it is all quite clear in DC 138 as has been mentioned by others. Quote 29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding aquickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the bwicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he aorganized his forces and appointed bmessengers, cclothed with power and authority, and dcommissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in edarkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the aacceptable day of the Lord and proclaim bliberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would crepent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had adied in their sins, without a bknowledge of the truth, or in ctransgression, having drejected the prophets. 33 These were taught afaith in God, repentance from sin, bvicarious baptism for the cremission of sins, the dgift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, 34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be ajudged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. So those who were righteous in life received the ministry of the Lord himself, while those who were not righteous in life received ministrations from selected individuals apparently from those who had been righteous, who taught the unrighteous the principles of the gospel, along with those who died in their sins, without the opportunity to learn the gospel. Pretty straightforward. You still have the possibility of universal exaltation except for the sons of perdition, who we know will be very few, because it is so difficult to "qualify" as one. I think we need to differentiate between what little the scripture gives us and the complex interpretations WE CREATE. That process of creation is not wrong- it is what we are supposed to do. But in my opinion we should not publish our more complex INTERPRETATIONS of scripture as the "CORRECT" interpretations - a process which may simply confuse people, perhaps as has happened here. We are here to create our own understanding of the "mysteries" but not try to pass them off as THE truth for all members of the church Let's read the scriptures for ourselves and draw out own conclusions as inspired by the Holy Ghost. I think that is what the Lord wants of us. He has his own curriculum for each of us Edited November 6, 2020 by mfbukowski 1 Link to comment
telnetd Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 On 11/5/2020 at 6:24 PM, Ahab said: Okay. What is it about that idea that is confusing to you? The booklet says those who do not repent will not be happy - which describes the definite of the telestial inhabitants. Link to comment
telnetd Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 On 11/3/2020 at 7:29 AM, teddyaware said: Many members of the Church fail to understand that Alma’s “day of this life” refers to the entire fallen state, which includes the time we spend in the spirit world prior to the resurrection. That's not the impression when I read other passages. "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). The mortal time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 12:24-26; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 9:25-27). From what I have read, the spirit world for the wicked is a waiting period for the wrath of God to come. Alma 40:11-14,26 "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection ... But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup". Link to comment
teddyaware Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, telnetd said: That's not the impression when I read other passages. "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). The mortal time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 12:24-26; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 9:25-27). From what I have read, the spirit world for the wicked is a waiting period for the wrath of God to come. Alma 40:11-14,26 "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection ... But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup". The day of this life (also known as the probationary period) must include this life and the time we spend in the spirit world after death, because if it doesn’t Doctrine and Covenants 138 makes zero sense. If wicked spirits who rejected the prophets while in this life can’t come unto Christ, repent, and change for the better after they die, why do we read the following? 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138) Edited November 14, 2020 by teddyaware 2 Link to comment
telnetd Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 2 hours ago, teddyaware said: The day of this life (also known as the probationary period) must include this life and the time we spend in the spirit world after death, because if it doesn’t Doctrine and Covenants 138 makes zero sense. If wicked spirits who rejected the prophets while in this life can’t come unto Christ, repent, and change for the better after they die, why do we read the following? 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138) That's what confused me as I read other passages in Alma I mentioned before about this being the final state of the wicked. Also Alma 41:3-4 (someone with evil desires in mortality will have their evil desires restored after resurrection). The same was mentioned in the Plan of Salvation - "Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil". Why would the wicked spirits who rejected the prophets while living now accept the preaching of others after they die? Link to comment
teddyaware Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 2 hours ago, telnetd said: That's what confused me as I read other passages in Alma I mentioned before about this being the final state of the wicked. Also Alma 41:3-4 (someone with evil desires in mortality will have their evil desires restored after resurrection). The same was mentioned in the Plan of Salvation - "Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil". Why would the wicked spirits who rejected the prophets while living now accept the preaching of others after they die? You’re confusion is due to the fact that you fail to understand there’s a vast world difference between those individuals who come unto Christ and repent prior to the resurrection, even if it so be in the spirit world, and those who adamantly refuse to come unto Christ and repent even beyond the resurrection when it’s everlastingly too late to change. Repentance unto salvation in one of the three post-resurrection kingdoms of heavenly glory is possible prior to the resurrection, but not after the resurrection. This is why Joseph F Smith testifies that the wicked in the spirit world who who rejected the prophets while on earth are visited by messengers from paradise who declare to them “the acceptable day of the Lord (i.e. the Lord is still willing to accept them if they will repent before it’s too late) and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound...” Your problem is you fail to see there’s a deeper and more expansive meaning to the scripture’s you’re quoting. Your only choice is to continue on in a state of perplexity and confusion or accept the fact that the Lord is more merciful than you heretofore thought he was. 2 Link to comment
let’s roll Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 On 10/19/2020 at 8:44 AM, stemelbow said: I do find your beliefs more palpable then scriptural teaching. Unfortunately this passage is not suggesting only sons of perdition are God's enemies. I realize you see this passage differently, but I think I've noted and still maintain I don't find your interpretation reasonable. “Scriptural teaching” includes the principle that both scripture and God’s will can be understood fully only by means of the spirit. Would you suggest it is possible for one not in harmony with the spirit to understand scripture and God’s will with more clarity than one with such harmony? 2 Link to comment
telnetd Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 On 11/14/2020 at 8:55 PM, teddyaware said: This is why Joseph F Smith testifies that the wicked in the spirit world who who rejected the prophets while on earth are visited by messengers from paradise who declare to them “the acceptable day of the Lord Why would the wicked people who rejected the prophets (and possibly stoned/killed them too) later accept new messengers in the spirit world? Link to comment
let’s roll Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, telnetd said: Why would the wicked people who rejected the prophets (and possibly stoned/killed them too) later accept new messengers in the spirit world? Saul/Paul would be able to share some thoughts on your question. The message of the Gospel and the power of the atonement can, when embraced, enable change within even those who, out of pride, anger, fear or any of countless other motives, have rejected the Gospel message and persecuted its messengers. Edited November 16, 2020 by let’s roll 2 Link to comment
teddyaware Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, telnetd said: Why would the wicked people who rejected the prophets (and possibly stoned/killed them too) later accept new messengers in the spirit world? Are you serious? How about because many such people finally get sick and tired of being miserable and without inner peace because of their sinfulness. Do you know there have been and now are many members of the Church who at one time bitterly rejected the message of the restored gospel but later received it? I was one of them. Do you honestly think people who at one time rejected the prophets are incapable of changing their minds? I don’t get it? Edited November 16, 2020 by teddyaware 1 Link to comment
stemelbow Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) On 11/14/2020 at 10:26 PM, let’s roll said: “Scriptural teaching” includes the principle that both scripture and God’s will can be understood fully only by means of the spirit. Where does it say that? Quote Would you suggest it is possible for one not in harmony with the spirit to understand scripture and God’s will with more clarity than one with such harmony? Yes. How would we determine this? one might say, "well you don't know the scriptures because you don't understand them as I do, and God has granted me special privilege in understanding them in a certain way because I can feel that He has. And since he has granted me special privilege and you don't agree with me, it must really mean you aren't blessed by God." But that just seems like a silly method, no? Edited November 16, 2020 by stemelbow Link to comment
telnetd Posted November 21, 2020 Author Share Posted November 21, 2020 On 11/15/2020 at 10:03 PM, teddyaware said: Are you serious? How about because many such people finally get sick and tired of being miserable and without inner peace because of their sinfulness. Do you know there have been and now are many members of the Church who at one time bitterly rejected the message of the restored gospel but later received it? I was one of them. Do you honestly think people who at one time rejected the prophets are incapable of changing their minds? I don’t get it? When I read these passages, the wicked do not accept the gospel after death. Alma 34:35 - "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked". Alma 40:13-14 - "And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil -- for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house -- and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection". Link to comment
teddyaware Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, telnetd said: When I read these passages, the wicked do not accept the gospel after death. Alma 34:35 - "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked". Alma 40:13-14 - "And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil -- for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house -- and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection". Now you’ve got me wondering if you’re a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you are a member of the Church, have you not been taught about God’s plan of salvation for the dead? Have you not read and understood Doctrine and Covenants 138 which teaches, in perfect plainness, that those who once rejected the prophets and the message of salvation while on earth are given the opportunity to again be taught the gospel and accept its saving message in the spirit world after death? Again, why do you not seem to understand that the death of the mortal body doesn’t occur in the eyes of God until that day when temple work for the dead comes to an end, and there are no longer living proxies who vicariously stand in for the dead and receive the ordinances of salvation as if they are alive in the flesh and standing in the presence of the temple officiators? The apostle Peter reveals he perfectly understood the wonderfully merciful doctrines pertaining to the salvation of the dead when he taught that even the desperately wicked spirits who died in the flood of judgement of Noah’s day are given the opportunity to again be taught the gospel, embrace its saving message, and thereafter be judged by God as if they are still living in the flesh. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter3) and.. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4) Edited November 22, 2020 by teddyaware 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 2 hours ago, teddyaware said: Now you’ve got me wondering if you’re a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you are a member of the Church, have you not been taught about God’s plan of salvation for the dead? Have you not read and understood Doctrine and Covenants 138 which teaches, in perfect plainness, that those who once rejected the prophets and the message of salvation while on earth are given the opportunity to again be taught the gospel and accept its saving message in the spirit world after death? Again, why do you not seem to understand that the death of the mortal body doesn’t occur in the eyes of God until that day when temple work for the dead comes to an end and there are no longer living proxies who vicariously stand in for the dead and receive the ordinances of salvation as if they are alive in the flesh and standing in the presence of the temple officiators? The apostle Peter reveals he perfectly understood the wonderfully merciful doctrines pertaining to the salvation of the dead when he taught that even the desperately wicked spirits who died in the flood of judgement of Noah’s day have are given the opportunity to again be taught the gospel, embrace its saving message, and thereafter be judged by God as if they are still living in the flesh. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter3) and.. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4) I have noticed several times that he is not even aware of these doctrines much less the ideas themselves. I think he is a troll- he persists in asking questions which are not even coherent from our perspectives because he does not know what we believe, He thinks he has found a "gotcha" which is not even a real issue for us. Link to comment
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