Making Babies

[Ahab]

As you might guess this thread is a spin-off of the Abortion thread, where we were talking about killing babies.  In this thread I'd like to see some discussion on what is involved in making babies, instead of killing them.

Some people suppose that when babies are made that is the beginning of a new life, and I would now like to refute that idea.  What is actually happening when people make babies is a process called reproduction, with a male and female reproducing themselves.

Thus, life does not begin.  Life is not made.  Life perpetuates itself and reproduces itself however a particular kind of being manages to make more of itself.  So a child is not a new person.  The child existed before as parts of its parents when it was conceived.

Now I'll say something about the spirit that inhabits a body of a mortal baby before that mortal body of that baby is born.  Some people suppose that a spirit doesn't inhabit that body at the moment of conception, so I will now also refute that idea.

We are told by our Lord that it is the spirit that gives life to a mortal body and that without a spirit a mortal body is dead.  So what spirit do you suppose is keeping the mortal body of an unborn baby alive?  How would it grow and develop if it was dead?

Thus there must be a spirit within the body of a mortal baby even if that mortal baby hasn't been born into the world yet.  Either the spirit of the Mother who is inhabiting the body of the mortal baby while it is still within her body, or the spirit of the other person who will inhabit that mortal body when it is born.  And still life does not begin.  It existed before and will always continue, whether independent of its parent's body or still within its parents.  And the people who kill babies, when in some cases they do, are also killing parts of the baby's parents who were in the process of reproducing themselves.

[Chum]

38 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 In this thread I'd like to see some discussion on what is involved in making babies,

This week in How It's Made:  People

[The Nehor]

The combination of the thread title and thread author scares me and I like to think I do not scare easily.

[Chum]

45 minutes ago, Ahab said:

As you might guess this thread is a spin-off of the Abortion thread, where we were talking about killing babies.  In this thread I'd like to see some discussion on what is involved in making babies, instead of killing them.

Some people suppose that when babies are made that is the beginning of a new life, and I would now like to refute that idea. 

life does not begin.  Life is not made.  Life perpetuates itself and reproduces itself however a particular kind of being manages to make more of itself.  So a child is not a new person.  The child existed before as parts of its parents when it was conceived.

Okay. So, let's contrast us with non-human mammals. To make sure I understand correctly, are you asserting that the life of a new mammal exists prior to conception? Or does what you laid out apply only to humans?

Quote

What is actually happening when people make babies is a process called reproduction, with a male and female reproducing themselves.

We're kind of like 3D printers then, taking the material supplied and creating per predefined instructions. (that's the analogy that came to mind)

Quote

 

Now I'll say something about the spirit that inhabits a body of a mortal baby before that mortal body of that baby is born.  Some people suppose that a spirit doesn't inhabit that body at the moment of conception, so I will now also refute that idea.

We are told by our Lord that it is the spirit that gives life to a mortal body and that without a spirit a mortal body is dead.  So what spirit do you suppose is keeping the mortal body of an unborn baby alive?  How would it grow and develop if it was dead?

 

I'm trying to work thru the implications of "without a spirit a mortal body is dead". Is the premise here that unlike other biologically compatible meatbags, our biology is incapable of sustaining life without a premortal being to inhabit it?  (I'm not challenging here; I'm just making sure I understand your intent.)

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The combination of the thread title and thread author scares me and I like to think I do not scare easily.

He was upfront that this was abortion thread lite.  That's something.

Personally, I totally don't get the appeal of an abortion debate - it's impossible to examine any nuance because folks are repeating the same points for - literally - the multi-billionth time and zero minds will ever, ever, ever be changed.

It's basically the 17th circle of a rebooted Hell. I don't know why humans want so badly to do that to themselves.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

Okay. So, let's contrast us with non-human mammals. To make sure I understand correctly, are you asserting that the life of a new mammal exists prior to conception? Or does what you laid out apply only to humans?

We're kind of like 3D printers then, taking the material supplied and creating per predefined instructions. (that's the analogy that came to mind)

I'm trying to work thru the implications of "without a spirit a mortal body is dead". Is the premise here that unlike other biologically compatible meatbags, our biology is incapable of sustaining life without a premortal being to inhabit it?  (I'm not challenging here; I'm just making sure I understand your intent.)

Yes. I believe it says that in the Pearl of Great Price. Every thing is created spiritually first. I will try to find the scripture . Moses 3:5 also D&C 29:31-32

Edited October 9, 2020 by rodheadlee

[MustardSeed]

If we needed to know the answer, the prophets would have clarified by now. 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Ahab said:

We are told by our Lord that it is the spirit that gives life to a mortal body and that without a spirit a mortal body is dead.  So what spirit do you suppose is keeping the mortal body of an unborn baby alive?  How would it grow and develop if it was dead?

It could be the mother's spirit, kind of like life support

Or the light of Christ.

In either case, nothing to mess with!

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Ahab said:

As you might guess this thread is a spin-off of the Abortion thread, where we were talking about killing babies.  In this thread I'd like to see some discussion on what is involved in making babies, instead of killing them.

We kill eggs and sperm (in an approximate ratio of 1 : 10⁵ ) when making a zygote.

 

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, Chum said:

Okay. So, let's contrast us with non-human mammals. To make sure I understand correctly, are you asserting that the life of a new mammal exists prior to conception? Or does what you laid out apply only to humans?

First off, mammals don't make "new" mammals.  That would in essence be the creation of another species, a wonder that I would like to see which I don't believe anyone has ever seen before.

 What mammals can do, and do fairly well, however, is reproduce themselves by making other little bitty baby versions of themselves, little bitty babies that will eventually grow up to become fully grown versions of themselves.  Unless somebody or something kills them before they fully grow up to become adult versions of themselves.

And yes this applies to all living creatures, whatever kind of creature each creature happens to be.  They reproduce themselves rather than creating "new" species.

17 hours ago, Chum said:

We're kind of like 3D printers then, taking the material supplied and creating per predefined instructions. (that's the analogy that came to mind)

Yeah, well, not really. When people reproduce to make baby versions of themselves there is a male and a female involved who share parts of themselves with each other, usually developing in the female's womb.  

3D printers do not create any kind of living being.  At least not any that I have ever seen. 

17 hours ago, Chum said:

I'm trying to work thru the implications of "without a spirit a mortal body is dead". Is the premise here that unlike other biologically compatible meatbags, our biology is incapable of sustaining life without a premortal being to inhabit it?  (I'm not challenging here; I'm just making sure I understand your intent.)

My intent is to help everyone understand that without a spirit in a body that body has no life in it, and that making a body or a spirit requires the act of reproduction.  A particular kind of being reproducing itself.

Life does not begin.  Life doesn't come from out of nowhere or from out of nothing.  Life comes from living beings who reproduce themselves.  And there never has been a beginning nor will there ever be an end to life.

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, Chum said:

He was upfront that this was abortion thread lite.  That's something.

Personally, I totally don't get the appeal of an abortion debate - it's impossible to examine any nuance because folks are repeating the same points for - literally - the multi-billionth time and zero minds will ever, ever, ever be changed.

It's basically the 17th circle of a rebooted Hell. I don't know why humans want so badly to do that to themselves.

Because it's fun.  At least if you like this kind of thing.  I call it teaching, and I am always looking for somebody who is willing to learn what I can help to teach them.

[Storm Rider]

18 hours ago, Chum said:

He was upfront that this was abortion thread lite.  That's something.

Personally, I totally don't get the appeal of an abortion debate - it's impossible to examine any nuance because folks are repeating the same points for - literally - the multi-billionth time and zero minds will ever, ever, ever be changed.

It's basically the 17th circle of a rebooted Hell. I don't know why humans want so badly to do that to themselves.

I think minds can and do change. Assuming that no one changes their mind is like saying that no one finds faith in Christ because they have heard the message and have concluded it is false. Humans are capable of seeing the error in their thinking and open their hearts to truth. 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

We kill eggs and sperm (in an approximate ratio of 1 : 10⁵ ) when making a zygote.

 

Eh, not to my understanding, because what life is being killed at that point?  The life of a man?  No, I don't think so.  The life of a woman, then, maybe?  No, I don't think that either.

Do you consider an egg of a chicken to be alive it has not been fertilized by the sperm of a rooster (male chicken).  Did you grow up on a farm or do you know enough about how that works?

Sperm and eggs are parts of living beings but not alive all on their own until the moment of conception, when sperm and an egg combine and begin to develop into more than only sperm and an egg.

The life of a body is the spirit within it and coursing through it, so even if the individual who will later inhabit a body hasn't entered into it yet there must be a spirit in a body (body = egg fertilized by sperm) to make that body alive, if it should be considered alive.  So I'm thinking it is the spirit of the Mother who keeps her little bitty baby (you call a zygote) alive until that body is separated from her body, if not the spirit of the individual who will later inhabit that body.  Or maybe sometimes a combination of both spirits, like how the Holy Ghost (another spirit) can be in our body with our own spirit.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Ahab

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

If we needed to know the answer, the prophets would have clarified by now. 

Our Lord's prophets have repeatedly told us a lot of things that many people still refuse to believe.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Eh, not to my understanding, because what life is being killed at that point?  The life of a man?  No, I don't think so.  The life of a woman, then, maybe?  No, I don't think that either.

Do you consider an egg of a chicken to be alive it has not been fertilized by the sperm of a rooster (male chicken).  Did you grow up on a farm or do you know enough about how that works?

Sperm and eggs are parts of living beings but not alive all on their own until the moment of conception, when sperm and an egg combine and begin to develop into more than only sperm and an egg.

The life of a body is the spirit within it and coursing through it, so even if the individual who will later inhabit a body hasn't entered into it yet there must be a spirit in a body (body = egg fertilized by sperm) to make that body alive, if it should be considered alive.  So I'm thinking it is the spirit of the Mother who keeps her little bitty baby (you call a zygote) alive until that body is separated from her body, if not the spirit of the individual who will later inhabit that body.  Or maybe sometimes a combination of both spirits, like how the Holy Ghost (another spirit) can be in our body with our own spirit.

This gets into the designation of what constitutes life, personhood, etc. and "potential" versus "actual." Assuming that all life is sacred in all these forms, and tough decisions such as those in Alma 14:8-11 and 1 Nephi 4:10 are made with the Spirit's constraint (especially resting with the potential versus the actual in mind), the morality of the decision for abortion, IVF, IUDs, morning-after pills, etc. rests on something other than whether the affected  cell(s) involved are considered to be "living" or not.

Edited October 9, 2020 by CV75

[Chum]

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

First off, mammals don't make "new" mammals.  That would in essence be the creation of another species, a wonder that I would like to see which I don't believe anyone has ever seen before.

I believed you were looking for productive engagement. I see I was mistaken and will be more cautious next time.

[Chum]

5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think minds can and do change.

About anything else, I absolutely believe that.  However, an abortion debate is the least conducive place possible for changing minds.

[Bernard Gui]

 

19 hours ago, Ahab said:

The life of a body is the spirit within it and coursing through it, so even if the individual who will later inhabit a body hasn't entered into it yet there must be a spirit in a body (body = egg fertilized by sperm) to make that body alive, if it should be considered alive.  So I'm thinking it is the spirit of the Mother who keeps her little bitty baby (you call a zygote) alive until that body is separated from her body, if not the spirit of the individual who will later inhabit that body.  Or maybe sometimes a combination of both spirits, like how the Holy Ghost (another spirit) can be in our body with our own spirit.

Pogo quoted a scientific paper in that other discussion. The author said something I had not considered before. Perhaps it can be applied to your question.

Quote

In sum, a mature human sperm and a mature human oocyte are products of gametogenesis -each has only 23 chromosomes. They each have only half of the required number of chromosomes for a human being. They cannot singly develop further into human beings. They produce only "gamete" proteins and enzymes. They do not direct their own growth and development. And they are not individuals, i.e., members of the human species. They are only parts, each one a part of a human being. On the other hand, a human being is the immediate product of fertilization. As such he/she is a single-cell embryonic zygote, an organism with 46 chromosomes, the number required of a member of the human species. This human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes, directs his/her own further growth and development as human, and is a new, genetically unique, newly existing, live human individual. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html#:~:text=A human zygote is a,not look like human beings."

The new human being is directing his/her further growth as a human being. 

I have a lot of kids and grandkids, but in all those pregnancies and births I had never considered this. 

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Pogo quoted a scientific paper in that other discussion. The author said something I had not considered before. Perhaps it can be applied to your question.

The new human being is directing his/her further growth as a human being. 

I have a lot of kids and grandkids, but in all those pregnancies and births I had never considered this. 

The DNA, chromosomes and genes are non-living molecules. The coded information therein directs the formation of living cells through the interaction of living and non-living processes and things. This non-living machinery, no matter how long one argues to extend that period, is no less sacred than the projected living outcome of its operation. As a projection, there is more to the moral assessment of preventing or ending a pregnancy than the preservation or destruction of the couple’s chromosomes, whether separately in the form of germ cells or in combination as a zygote. The potential impact of the life that is formed on all other things on earth (noting that the non-living and the living are inextricably entwined) must be considered, with implications far beyond the immediate interaction between the conception and the mother. This certainly broadens the scope of rights and responsibility for making these choices and codifying them for the larger group.

Edited October 10, 2020 by CV75

[MustardSeed]

20 hours ago, Ahab said:

Our Lord's prophets have repeatedly told us a lot of things that many people still refuse to believe.

And? 
this is a topic I believe we would have answers on  if we needed them.  Whether people believed it or not.