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Catholic Bishop: Abortion Is the 'Preeminent Evil in Our Culture.


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2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And were your biologists asked when a human’s life began? Or when an embryo becomes a human being?

That would scratch their head at the nonsensical second question.  I have already posted one link from biologists at Princeton indicating that a zygote is a "human being" in primary stages of development.  Humans have many stages of development.  If we need to be fully developed to be considered a human being, then new born babies are not human beings either.  I will see if there were more specific questions in the larger poll of biologists.   

Edited by pogi
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4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks, but I’m not a liar. 

You are in a burning fertility clinic alone. In the room with you is a single infant asleep and a fridge full of (1000 to be exact) 5 day healthy blastocysts.   You have time to escape with the baby or the fridge. You can’t save both. If you truly believe that blastocysts are people worthy of all the same protections and rights as an infant then surely the choice is easy. You grab the fridge and leave the baby to die. 
 

If you choose the baby, in what sense can you say blastocysts deserve the same rights and protection? If you choose the baby would you loose sleep in the days and years to come with the knowledge that you let 1000 people die to save one?

 

Maybe you are right and you will be the first person I’ve ever known to pick the fridge. But if you don’t, then it’s unclear to me how you can claim they are the same thing

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21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Brigham Young said it was when the mother felt independent life but that could have been a cultural thing since that was the standard rule for when abortion was no longer an option at the time. I don’t know.

I am not suggesting abortion is not serious. When I was in the Mission Field we had the (possibly irreverent) Big 5 and the Big 1. The Big 1 was murder which meant a long road to baptism and 1st Presidency approval. For the Big 5 we used the acronym HAPPI (Homosexuality, Abortion, Prison, Prostitution, Incest) which meant that you needed Mission President approval for a baptism. It is not treated as murder. I understand why these gradations of sin exist for baptismal permission but I have come more and more to the conclusion that murder is serious, whatever Corianton did was almost as serious, and the rest vary so much that it is hard to tell which are better or worse than others. I do have a personal rule of thumb that any sin that is predatory is worse than the equivalent sin without it.

Thanks for the wise words.

I soberly contemplate Alma the Younger’s plaint....

“Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments. Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.” 

An important principle in 12-Step Recovery is to make a list of all those we have harmed and commit to making amends to them when possible.

While I am not a recovering addict, I have been through the steps dozens of times. It took me a long time to compile my list, and it is ongoing. I have felt Alma’s remorse at the thought of having harmed another person. I have become willing to make amends and have when it was appropriate, but there are many with whom this is not possible.

 I imagine the line of folks I will willingly face at the Pearly Gates....”Oh, I’m sorry.” “I’m so sorry.” “ Not you! Can you forgive me?” I believe that even with the Atonement, we will still ask and give forgiveness to those we have harmed. 

This from Elder James Rasband is most comforting: “Yet, for many of our sins and mistakes, we simply are not able to fully heal those we have hurt. The magnificent, peace-giving promise of the Book of Mormon and the restored gospel is that the Savior will mend all that we have broken. And He will also mend us if we turn to Him in faith and repent of the harm we have caused. He offers both of these gifts because He loves all of us with perfect love and because He is committed to ensuring a righteous judgment that honors both justice and mercy.”

 

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22 minutes ago, pogi said:

That would scratch their head at the nonsensical second question.  I have already posted one link from biologists at Princeton indicating that a zygote is a "human being" in primary stages of development.  Humans have many stages of development.  If we need to be fully developed to be considered a human being, then new born babies are not human beings either.  I will see if there were more specific questions in the larger poll of biologists.   

Right but that tells us nothing about when it’s a person (deserving legal status and protection). Using technology available today, I could clone myself from one my cells. When the clone’s life begins as an individual unit would be when the gut cell last divided.
 

At the same time all life from a scientific perspective is a single continuous process that traces back to the first self replicating molecules. This again tells us nothing about abortion or when a fetus becomes a person worthy of the same rights as an infant. 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

When I was in the Mission Field we had the (possibly irreverent) Big 5 and the Big 1.

Speaking of irreverent,

”I had a dream all the babies prevented by the pill showed up. They were mad.” Steven Wright

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That there are a lot of people in the US willing to adopt if the child is white, healthy, and a newborn. In those circumstances you can find people who will pay for your medical care. Throw out any one of those and the odds plummet.

I have a number of friends who have adopted children of other races. Some of them have received criticism that by adopting they were compromising and betraying the children’s racial identity. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You are in a burning fertility clinic alone. In the room with you is a single infant asleep and a fridge full of (1000 to be exact) 5 day healthy blastocysts.   You have time to escape with the baby or the fridge. You can’t save both. If you truly believe that blastocysts are people worthy of all the same protections and rights as an infant then surely the choice is easy. You grab the fridge and leave the baby to die. 
 

If you choose the baby, in what sense can you say blastocysts deserve the same rights and protection? If you choose the baby would you loose sleep in the days and years to come with the knowledge that you let 1000 people die to save one?

 

Maybe you are right and you will be the first person I’ve ever known to pick the fridge. But if you don’t, then it’s unclear to me how you can claim they are the same thing

Well, I don’t frequent burning clinics. I hope the clinic would take adequate safety precautions to protect fully the precious contents with which they are entrusted. 

I’ll give you a Sophie’s Choice too. You come upon a burning building. Ignoring the danger, you  rush inside and discover a baby in an infant seat and an old white man (me). You can only save one. Which do you choose? If you choose the baby, will you spend sleepless nights with the thought that you left an old white man to die a horrible death, depriving him of his golden years with his beloved partner and the enjoyment of his grandchildren? If you choose me, do you bewail the lost potential life, experiences, achievements, and loves of a beautiful child?  

Either way, it is unclear how you can claim the baby and I are of equal worth.

At what point does a blastocyst (interesting euphemism) become worhy of saving?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, I don’t frequent burning clinics, but I’ll give you a Sophie’s choice too. You come upon a burning building. Ignoring the danger, you  rush inside and discover a baby in an infant seat and an old white man (me). You can only save one. Which do you choose?


First I will point out that you managed not to answer the question  why is that do you think? 

For sure I would choose the baby every time. Is there a number of old men worth the life of a baby? For me yes. And yes, I’d be haunted by leaving you probably for the rest of my life. For the fridge? No. And there is no number of blastocysts worth one infant for me. Is there a number for you? How many? 

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:


If you choose the baby, will you spend sleepless nights with the thought that you left an old white man to die a horrible death, depriving him of his golden years with his beloved partner and the enjoyment of his grandchildren? 
 

absolutely yes. 

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Either way, it is unclear how you can claim the baby and I are of equal worth.

Not equal, but of the same stuff. It would be a hard choice. We are making those choices right now while we sacrifice the education of our young to save the lives of our elderly. The point is with the fridge is it’s not a hard choice and deep down you know it or you would have actually answered the question instead of dodging like you did.  There is no number of blastocysts that you would trade for the life of an infant because they are of a different type. A different kind. They are not the same. 
 

I will also point out that your example the old and young are more different from your point of view than the five day old blastocyst and the infant. The blastocyst has its whole life ahead of it. Even more life and opportunity than the baby. 

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

At what point does a blastocyst (interesting euphemism)

just a scientific term so we know what we are taking about. 

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

become worrhy of saving?

As I have mentioned, it is a difficult balancing act of rights. I think the current state of Supreme Court rulings does a good job balancing this. 

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57 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:


First I will point out that you managed not to answer the question  why is that do you think? 

For sure I would choose the baby every time. Is there a number of old men worth the life of a baby? For me yes. And yes, I’d be haunted by leaving you probably for the rest of my life. For the fridge? No. And there is no number of blastocysts worth one infant for me. Is there a number for you? How many? 

absolutely yes. 

Not equal, but of the same stuff. It would be a hard choice. We are making those choices right now while we sacrifice the education of our young to save the lives of our elderly. The point is with the fridge is it’s not a hard choice and deep down you know it or you would have actually answered the question instead of dodging like you did.  There is no number of blastocysts that you would trade for the life of an infant because they are of a different type. A different kind. They are not the same. 
 

I will also point out that your example the old and young are more different from your point of view than the five day old blastocyst and the infant. The blastocyst has its whole life ahead of it. Even more life and opportunity than the baby.

Just t a scientific term so we know what we are taking about. 

As I have mentioned, it is a difficult balancing act of rights. I think the current state of Supreme Court rulings does a good job balancing this. 

Not avoiding the question, but pointing out the difficulty of making such a moral distinctions. Hence Sophie’s Choice. By choosing the baby, it seems your criteria is “potential” life. The baby is of greater value because it has greater potential than I. From my point of view, I could say, “Good choice. I have lived a good life. I should move on.” Or, “I deserve to live and enjoy the fruits of many years of hard labor. That child may grow up to be a murderer.” You will make that choice for me.

A rational decision could be to choose the 1000 potential lives over the one existing life. After all, the potential good of 1000 lives far exceeds the potential of one life. 

An emotional decision could be to pity the infant and doom the 1000. Which is the more morally informed choice? 

Since the baby has more potential life, then it is more valuable than I. What if you knew the baby had a life-changing disability or deformity? Would that influence your decision?

Yes, these are difficult choices. Not necessarily made easier by what-if Gotcha Sophie’s Choice questions. 

Blastocyst -  a scientific term that in this context serves to dehumanize the potential lives of the unborn and diminish their right to life? 

Do you mean the Supreme Court whose decisions have put us in the current situation, having to contend whether eliminating our offspring is good or bad?

 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I would like abortions to nearly stop, ideally because no one wants one. I would be especially interested if there were “rampant abortions” but that is not the case. They are  not common.

I’m not sure I understand. If there were 600,000 instead of 16,000 murders in one year in the US, would that be considered rampant or uncommon, even if the numbers decreased slightly each year? Or if there were 100,000 war casualties world-wide every day, could it be said that war is rampant?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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In the United States, 442,000 children are in foster care and over 8 million children around the world are in institutions.

Where are all of these couples you speak of waiting for children to adopt? 

Where are all the people who are against abortion stepping up to adopt these unwanted children?  

Are they all just not quite what they are looking for?

Why aren't all these people that are against abortion not first taking care of the unwanted children we now have?

Or is it only fetuses they worry about?

 

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What “many places”? Are they easily accessible?

Don’t have sex. That rule has been tried throughout history and it doesn’t have a fantastic success rate. I agree it would be the ideal.

County health clinics, online pharmacies, in many states you can get birth control pills at a pharmacy after talking to a pharmacist.  Bill control is cheaper than a baby or an abortion right?

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Brigham Young said it was when the mother felt independent life but that could have been a cultural thing since that was the standard rule for when abortion was no longer an option at the time. I don’t know.

I am not suggesting abortion is not serious. When I was in the Mission Field we had the (possibly irreverent) Big 5 and the Big 1. The Big 1 was murder which meant a long road to baptism and 1st Presidency approval. For the Big 5 we used the acronym HAPPI (Homosexuality, Abortion, Prison, Prostitution, Incest) which meant that you needed Mission President approval for a baptism. It is not treated as murder. I understand why these gradations of sin exist for baptismal permission but I have come more and more to the conclusion that murder is serious, whatever Corianton did was almost as serious, and the rest vary so much that it is hard to tell which are better or worse than others. I do have a personal rule of thumb that any sin that is predatory is worse than the equivalent sin without it.

Brigham said 'when the mother feels life come to her infant, it is the spirit entering the body preparatory to the immortal existence'   

 

I felt my daughter kicking at 10 weeks pregnant. I thought I felt her and when I went in for an ultrasound, it confirmed it was her kicking.   It can be very early depending on the baby and the body of the mother.

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39 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

In the United States, 442,000 children are in foster care and over 8 million children around the world are in institutions.

Where are all of these couples you speak of waiting for children to adopt? 

Where are all the people who are against abortion stepping up to adopt these unwanted children?  

Are they all just not quite what they are looking for?

Why aren't all these people that are against abortion not first taking care of the unwanted children we now have?

Or is it only fetuses they worry about?

 

Many of these children are not available for adoption. I know a few years ago, there were none in our state that they would have allowed us to adopt. Many needed to be only children or couldn't be around younger children.  Many kids sit in foster care because their parents will not allow them to be adopted knowing they will not get the kids back. It's so sad.  I would love to adopt when my kids are grown. 

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

 

In the United States, 442,000 children are in foster care and over 8 million children around the world are in institutions.

Where are all of these couples you speak of waiting for children to adopt? 

Where are all the people who are against abortion stepping up to adopt these unwanted children?  

Are they all just not quite what they are looking for?

Why aren't all these people that are against abortion not first taking care of the unwanted children we now have?

Or is it only fetuses they worry about?

I’m a bit confused. Are you saying more abortions are needed?

Can you set an example here?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That there are a lot of people in the US willing to adopt if the child is white, healthy, and a newborn. In those circumstances you can find people who will pay for your medical care. Throw out any one of those and the odds plummet.

I would add that I have never heard of a positive experience from a protester trying to talk a woman out of an abortion. Most of those who try to talk them out of it lure them in with lies or offers of a free exam and then hit them hard with the argument. It is deceptive and I find it disgusting antithetical to the love they profess they have.

You sound really one sided.  I have seen numerous accounts all across the spectrum.  Amy Coney Barrett's adoption of older Haitian children is but one example at a high level.

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1 hour ago, cherryTreez said:

Brigham said 'when the mother feels life come to her infant, it is the spirit entering the body preparatory to the immortal existence'   

 

I felt my daughter kicking at 10 weeks pregnant. I thought I felt her and when I went in for an ultrasound, it confirmed it was her kicking.   It can be very early depending on the baby and the body of the mother.

Is 10 months unusual? I’m sure the baby is in motion very early on, but it would not be  noticeable until a certain stage of development. In my opinion, that is a problem with equating baby motion with the entry of the spirit into the body. 

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8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is 10 months unusual?

 Very...

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

 Very...

Sister Gui remembers her earliest at about 20 months. With seven, the memories can get confusing. 

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27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sister Gui remembers her earliest at about 20 months. With seven, the memories can get confusing. 

My longest pregnancy was 8 months.  😁

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is 10 months unusual? I’m sure the baby is in motion very early on, but it would not be  noticeable until a certain stage of development. In my opinion, that is a problem with equating baby motion with the entry of the spirit into the body. 

Joking aside, most women feel the first movement from 14-26 weeks with the average being 18-22.

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

her earliest at about 20 months

I am impressed by her endurance. 

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9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sister Gui remembers her earliest at about 20 months. With seven, the memories can get confusing. 

Weeks, maybe?  ;):D (Or maybe we should ask what species you are? :D :rofl: :D )

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