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Catholic Bishop: Abortion Is the 'Preeminent Evil in Our Culture.


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35 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

My beautiful nephew was born to meth and heroin addicted mother. He is amazing. Yes, he had some problems from the drugs. I would hate to see a world where it was decided that he should be killed due to the choices his bio mother made. 

What level of care was he given after he was born?  Was he left with his mother or did someone else become primary caregiver?

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1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

Oh yes, I understand as I already acknowledged that you're talking only about yourself.

I don't think she is claiming infallibility based on her maternal status or her Mormonness. She is using arguments and data to further her claims.

She made an important point regarding child support. How does the church ensure that a man who is ordered to pay child support pays it?

 

Then why set yourself up as an authority by claiming motherhood and Church membership? Pointless to her argument.

Temple recommend question #12:

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12. Do you have any financial or other obligations to a former spouse or to children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

 

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12 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

What about him? Women know we are the ones to get pregnant, we need to be the ones to know it's our responsibility to not have sex or use multiple forms of birth control.  It's not that hard.

Or don't have sex with some loser that will walk away. Wait for marriage. Wait for a good man who will be a good father. 

Wow. :(

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

you'd have to ask someone who had a baby conceived by rape, that isn't me. There was a girl in my parents ward she was raped at a school camping trip and got pregnant, but she kept it. Some people have it adopted out

I know several women who have kept and loved their babies that were conceived from rape. They love their babies.

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25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

of my experience with the practices and beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I can safely conclude that my experiences are those of most if not all the other men and boys in the Church.

Unless there is a significant number of women in the Church getting abortions for reasons other than allowed by the Church, I am wondering why you see this as part of the discussion about the horrendous numbers of abortions in the US. I am not following the logic of your comment/train of thought.

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1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then why set yourself up as an authority by claiming motherhood and Church membership? Pointless to her argument.

Temple recommend question #12:

 

She is introducing herself, and perhaps in a way and also possibly inviting other Mormons including Mormon mothers and those aspiring to motherhood to consider her argument. People sometimes listen more to others who they feel can relate to them.

Yes, that is a temple recommend question. How does the church ensure that the answer is true? Do you know of anyone who was ever denied a recommend based on not paying child support?

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

What level of care was he given after he was born?  Was he left with his mother or did someone else become primary caregiver?

He was adopted by my sister. She brought him home from the hospital. He was born early and had to stay at the hospital for a few extra days. He is a sweet boy and brings so much love and joy to the family.

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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

She is introducing herself, and perhaps in a way and also possibly inviting other Mormons including Mormon mothers and those aspiring to motherhood to consider her argument. People sometimes listen more to others who they feel can relate to them.

Yes, that is a temple recommend question. How does the church ensure that the answer is true? Do you know of anyone who was ever denied a recommend based on not paying child support?

Do you know the reasons anyone is denied a recommend? I've never made it a point of inquiry. Were I serving as a bishop again, I would not issue a recommend to a person who does not pay child support. Other than that, I don't know how one would enforce it outside of legal action. That's not the Church's responsibility. 

Gospel Doctrine is this:

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It is also the father’s duty to provide for the physical needs of his family, making sure they have the necessary food, housing, clothing, and education. Even if he is unable to provide all the support himself, he does not give up the responsibility of the care of his family.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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11 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

I know several women who have kept and loved their babies that were conceived from rape. They love their babies.

great! not everyone is like that and that is up to the individual

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9 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

He was adopted by my sister. She brought him home from the hospital. He was born early and had to stay at the hospital for a few extra days. He is a sweet boy and brings so much love and joy to the family.

Sounds an ideal solution. In a previous ward, one sister adopted 4, maybe 5 of her sister’s children (her sister was mentally disabled and just wanted a child of her own, so kept trying).  They all had disabilities and the family had some hardships, but last I heard all were successful, both her own kids and the adopted ones. Some of the most admirable people I have known. 
 

Not everyone has family that is both willing and capable to step in to care for a child from difficult situations, especially as they get older and become harder to place. 

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24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unless there is a significant number of women in the Church getting abortions for reasons other than allowed by the Church, I am wondering why you see this as part of the discussion about the horrendous numbers of abortions in the US. I am not following the logic of your comment/train of thought.

Of course, we should see fewer elective abortions in the Church. Those horrendous numbers would be almost eliminated if we observed the Lord's laws regarding chastity. 

I was responding to this...

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What Blair details here is the learned and perpetuated cultural focus on female responsibility for abortion without an equal, attendant focus on male responsibility. I think that, if men and women both focused on both equally, there would likely be much quicker and more universal agreement that emphasizes abortion prevention more and criminalization less. 

My point is that in the Church, men and women are or should be held to the same standards. By asserting her membership in the Church, Blair inserts the Church and the men of the Church into her extended diatribe. Citing this in our discussion, it seems to me, purposely or maybe inadvertently implicates the male members of the Church in the wider abuses she decries. While I don't appreciate her tone or writing style, it is true that women have been victimized like this throughout history. There certainly have been comments here about "men grandstanding about women's reproductive rights," meaning men on this board.

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I’m a mother of six, and a Mormon. I have a good understanding of arguments surrounding abortion, religious and otherwise. I've been listening to men grandstand about women's reproductive rights, and I'm convinced men actually have zero interest in stopping abortion.

I do not agree that "men actually have zero interest in stopping abortion." This discussion is proof that they do. Many men LDS or not want desperately to prevent rampant abortions.  I believe the answer is the Gospel. 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Reports show that on any day over 5,000 women are unable to use services because of a lack of funding or space.[48] Many states have also cut their funds for women's shelters. In 2009, Governor Schwarzenegger of California cut $16 million in state funding to domestic violence programs because of the state's budget deficit.[59] In late 2011 Washington governor Christine Gregoire released a budget proposal stripping all state funding for domestic violence and women's shelters across Washington State.[60] These types of budget cuts caused several shelters to close their doors, leaving women with no safe haven to escape Intimate partner violence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_shelter

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43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I do not agree that "men actually have zero interest in stopping abortion." This discussion is proof that they do. Many men LDS or not want desperately to stop rampant abortions.

 

I found her arguments overstated in a couple of places.  While some good points, I didn’t consider it persuasive due to the over statements. 
 

It doesn’t always take two to tango, women do not have to consent to get pregnant and it is possible for a woman to rape a man, though much less likely. 
 

And I see no reason to discount irresponsibility in a woman just because if there was no man around, she wouldn’t get pregnant. 

Condoms and vasectomies are much more accessible, less costly, and less damaging than female forms of birth control though.  I was one who couldn’t take any form of the pill due to going into deep depression. Other forms caused pain and irritations.  Thankfully I found one that didn’t burn.   I have known women though that weren’t that lucky. 
 

Sorry if that was TMI, I just wanted to make it clear there are women who can’t used the less permanent forms of birth control.  And tubal ligation has significant costs and even dangers as well. 

Edited by Calm
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17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sounds an ideal solution. In a previous ward, one sister adopted 4, maybe 5 of her sister’s children (her sister was mentally disabled and just wanted a child of her own, so kept trying).  They all had disabilities and the family had some hardships, but last I heard all were successful, both her own kids and the adopted ones. Some of the most admirable people I have known. 
 

Not everyone has family that is both willing and capable to step in to care for a child from difficult situations, especially as they get older and become harder to place. 

He was adopted from foster care.  She also has adopted his older sister. It wasn't family that stepped up but a stranger who wanted children and felt led to them.  There is a long list of people here who would adopt a drug addicted baby.

His bio mom is not related to us. 

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

So, yes, there does seem to be some inability to accept scientific consensus. 

Look, I'm sure I completely disagree with their ideology on this. But from the comments you provided, I would say that their issue is definitely with the points I brought up--the philosophical and religious meaning of "life," "human," "personhood," etc., and not with science's description of human biology. 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

There are certainly moral questions surrounding "life". But the statement that human life begins at the zygote is not a moral statement - it is a scientific one.  Let philosophy and religion do with that fact what it will.  But we have to start with that biological foundation - then build our morals from it. 

I would suggest that instead it is most important to start with defining the meaning of words. It seems pretty clear to me that you are using a particular word in a strictly biological sense, and those disagreeing with you are attaching religious and philosophical connotations to that same term. Technically, without an established context, the statement that "human life begins at the zygote" is neither strictly moral nor strictly scientific. It depends upon context, and I'm pretty sure that those disagreeing with you are aren't strictly confining the meaning of "human life" to a scientific context. 

Edited by Ryan Dahle
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13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Many men LDS or not want desperately to stop rampant abortions.

I think her argument is that it is one thing to feel that abortions should be stopped, it is another to act on it.  
 

Are men who say they want to stop abortion having vasectomies or using condoms if they are having recreational sex not wanting to produce children?

Are these men pushing for better pre and postnatal care of pregnant women?

Are they pushing for more shelters for women and children victims of domestic violence as well affordable housing afterwards so that domestic violence will stop being the number one reason women and children are homeless?

Are they pushing for wide and free access to birth control?

Are they pushing for quality sex education that realistically portrays young, single parenthood and ways to avoid such, including but beyond abstinence?

Are they pushing for laws making it easier to collect child support?

There are probably several other issues that if men or women want abortion to go down, they need to actively support both politically and financially if they want to see abortion become an anomaly. 

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11 minutes ago, Ryan Dahle said:

But from the comments you provided, I would say that their issue is definitely with the points I brought up--the philosophical and religious meaning of "life," "human," "personhood," etc., and not with science's description of human biology. 

I guess they will have to speak for themselves on this.  But I made it 100% crystal clear that I have been speaking about biological human life from a scientific point of view (at least one of them doesn't even believe in spirits), and they are the ones who made it a point to respond and disagree with me.  

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2 hours ago, pogi said:

Cool, then I don't understand why you think it is impossible to determine that human life begins at the creation of the zygote.  Does anyone disagree that the zygote is new life? 

Each individual cell in my body is new life. Even human life. 

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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I guess they will have to speak for themselves on this.  But I made it 100% crystal clear that I have been speaking about biological human life from a scientific point of view (at least one of them doesn't even believe in spirits), and they are the ones who made it a point to respond and disagree with me.

Fair enough. Thanks.

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25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course, we should see fewer elective abortions in the Church. Those horrendous numbers would be almost eliminated if we observed the Lord's laws regarding chastity. 

Is this something you are assuming or something you have seen numbers on?  While I would assume that we would have far fewer out of marriage pregnancies if we observed the law of chastity, I've not see anything that shows that we would almost eliminate abortions in the church due to breaking the law of chastity. 

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I was responding to this...

My point is that in the Church, men and women are or should be held to the same standards. By asserting her membership in the Church, Blair inserts the Church and the men of the Church into her extended diatribe. Citing this in our discussion, it seems to me, purposely or maybe inadvertently implicates the male members of the Church in the wider abuses she decries. While I don't appreciate her tone or writing style, it is true that women have been victimized like this throughout history. There certainly have been comments here about "men grandstanding about women's reproductive rights," meaning men on this board.

I do not agree that "men actually have zero interest in stopping abortion." This discussion is proof that they do. Many men LDS or not want desperately to prevent rampant abortions.  I believe the answer is the Gospel. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, cherryTreez said:

Many places has county health departments. Birth control pills are free or cheap there.   Heck you can get pills are pharmacies for pretty cheap too in a lot of states.  

As for rape, you should report it to try and get the male off the streets. Morning after pills are over the counter in most states. 

Why stay with an abusive man? There are many places and people that help you get away.  

 

?? It’s like you didn’t even read my post. My whole point was that it’s never as black and white as this. 

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1 hour ago, cherryTreez said:

My beautiful nephew was born to meth and heroin addicted mother. He is amazing. Yes, he had some problems from the drugs. I would hate to see a world where it was decided that he should be killed due to the choices his bio mother made. 

I just wanted to clarify that what I said was not my position. I was thinking about the possible implications of some posters' statements that the child's soul is not harmed when it is aborted and that that soul can then go to another family to be born.

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22 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Each individual cell in my body is new life. Even human life. 

But not a human being.  A zygote is 1 human being.  A blastocyst is 1 human being.  An adult human with trillions of human cells is 1 human being.   

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