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Navigating Faith After Concluding Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham Are 19th Century Works by Joseph Smith


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I've been on the tipping point for some time but now feel quite confident that the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are not what they each claim to be. I respect those who have come to a different conclusion.  I feel quite confident that both works were not written by actual ancient authors, humans that existed in real time and space nor do I believe that Nephite's or Lamanite's nor Noah, Abraham and probably Moses actually ever existed. I have given up belief in an actual Adam and Eve, living in a Garden of Eden in Missouri, USA, No death before the fall, a universal flood and the tower of Babel. By default, I must also conclude that there was no actual translations of any ancient histories by Joseph Smith but that he was engaged in creating a pseudepigraphal scripture and that these works have their foundations in the 19th century and were creations from Joseph Smith's own creative mind.  They still hold doctrine and have value but my view of them has become more nuanced. 

My aim in this post is not to convince anyone else that my conclusions are correct nor am I asking anyone else to join me in my conclusions but am asking if there is anyone else who has come to a similar conclusion and how you were able to maintaine faith and belief in the church's other claims after coming to this conclusion.  I reached this place in order to maintain mental consistency with what I view as the facts.  I am not seeking a debate of my conclusions but am certainly willing to entertain additional information that might test my conclusions. My fear is that once this thread has been pulled the entire garment falls apart.

If there is anyone here who has traveled this road already and successfully navigated it...how did you maintain belief and faith in the church once you concluded that everything is not what you believed it was? is there still a place in the church for those who hold a nuanced belief?

Note to Administration:  If my post is inappropriate for this board please feel free to delete it.

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I  have always found rappelling scary and repellent.  Even with a firm anchor.

It's not a great sport if you're afraid of heights.

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19 hours ago, pogi said:

There are many faithful Latter-day Saints who hold a more nuanced view of these books.  I have walked that line for some time.  I see good arguments from both sides, but not enough from either for me to conclude one or the other.  I am comfortable not knowing.   I have concluded that such knowledge is not as important for my spiritual journey and well-being as others have concluded.   A testimony of the historicity of these books is not required to have a testimony of their sacred nature and scriptural significance.  These scriptures are spiritually edifying.  I can't find a more satisfying theology anywhere.  The spirit bears whiteness to me of their significance and message, but not necessarily of their historicity.  I don't think that is the point. 

All that ultimately matters (for me) is if God is content with the path I am on, and if the fruit tastes good.  I don't need to make many other absolute conclusions beyond that.  Above all else, maintain a healthy intimacy with God.  He will direct you for good.  There are few things that "I know", but I do know that God is content with the path that I am on, and I intend to keep going straight until He (and not my own faulty reckoning) impresses upon me to turn left or right.  Without that direct connection to God and confident familiarity with His voice, all hope in "knowing" spiritual truth is on shaky ground.

That is a good anchor to start with.  Above all else, maintain your faith, and relationship with God.

Thank you for being kind and balanced in your response.   When I first started on my journey it started with one simple question that I had on my mental shelf. I could never find a satisfying answer to that question.  Yes there were answers, just none that felt satisfying to me. But that one question opened up more questions and each subsequent search opened even more and until here I am today trying to hold the jig saw puzzle together with pieces that no longer seem to fit (from my perspective) and yet not finding a way to do so.

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Fair, it seems as if you are on a journey to find truth, much like everyone else here. 

Based upon your current conclusions, why are you trying to jam a square peg in a round whole? Why maintain faith in something with which you have completely negated the underlying, most elementary theological positions?  

My advice is to continue to move forward; continue your search. See if you can find something that you think is true and why.  

As an aside, I still remember a conversation as a youth regarding what truths were important. Jesus Christ was the Bull's Eye. It was the fundamental building block of the Gospel and Church. Several of the things you mentioned I put way out on the periphery of what is needed to know. For example, the exact location of the Garden of Eden you cited. That type of thing has zero bearing on one's eternal salvation. It may be worthwhile to identify for yourself, what are fundamental truths that you see as vital truths. 

Yes ignoring the puzzle pieces that won't fit is a solution I've considered.  Most of my life I've been told that I should ignore unanswerable questions that don't impact my salvation, but what if those questions are actually a key, sign to whether there is eternal salvation in the first place?  Maybe those questions are unanswerable because they bring into sharp focus whether or not eternal salvation actually is real. What if the emperor really is running around naked and I'm just now recognizing that reality?  Conference left me empty.

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54 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Thank you for being kind and balanced in your response.   When I first started on my journey it started with one simple question that I had on my mental shelf. I could never find a satisfying answer to that question.  Yes there were answers, just none that felt satisfying to me. But that one question opened up more questions and each subsequent search opened even more and until here I am today trying to hold the jig saw puzzle together with pieces that no longer seem to fit (from my perspective) and yet not finding a why to do so.

I stopped trying to put all the pieces together a long time ago.  I have come to accept that my perspective is limited.  When it comes to knowledge, I subscribe more to the philosophy of holism - "the theory that parts of a whole are in intimate interconnection, such that they cannot exist independently of the whole, or cannot be understood without reference to the whole, which is thus regarded as greater than the sum of its parts."

Here is one of my favorite poem/parables that explain it:

Quote

 

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me!—but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried: "Ho!—what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 't is mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:

"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'T is clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

 


 

God gives me pieces of the puzzle every now and then, it seems.  But I have found that my perspective and understanding of those pieces evolve as my overall perspective and understanding grows.  Line upon line, precept upon precept...there is a progressive and evolutionary nature to it.  Until I can see the big picture, and perceive how all the pieces interlock and relate with each other, I wont necessarily understand any single individual piece of the elephant in an absolute way.  For now, we see through a glass darkly.  I think that in order to evolve spiritually, one needs to be true to what light and perspective has been revealed to them, while being open to accept that further enlightenment and truth may alter the perspectives of those revelations and understanding.  We need to be less dogmatic about what we think we know, while at the same time cherishing and nourishing what we have that edifies us and is delicious to the taste. 

I hope that makes any kind of sense. 

 

Edited by pogi
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Fair Dinkum, I've been able to hold on to belief of a God and believe in prayers and angels. My belief struggle had me thinking I needed a new church, after trying out a few and listening to sermons of different faiths, my home remains the LDS church. I may not believe in the BoM/BoA historicity, but I believe in the culture for the most part. I lean on others' faith quite a bit.

I'm now thankful for my faith crisis-turned-journey and the members of this board who helped me not lose my mind. I believe that having my doubts caused me to sort of search the universe, look at others' positions of belief in a more open-minded way and step outside of my bubble. I was sort of a "bad" mormon because of my insular ways. I always felt uncomfortable when with others not of my faith or inactive members, not because I thought I was better, just something separated me from them, it's hard to explain. So now it's a whole lot better and I feel more whole than ever in my life because again, I was not a "good" mormon, unlike many that I know that are some of the coolest people on earth. 

 

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3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think that two things are imperative if you are to retain your testimony of the church after losing your testimony of the BOM.

1) Are you anchored?  Someone else came up with this analogy, not me, but I'm going to use it because I think it's so smart (and I've been repelling often so I know what he means).  Here goes:  Repelling can be a lot of fun.  It's exhilarating and you get to see places and things that most people don't get to see, all in a safe manner.  The difference between going over a cliff and having an awesome time, and going over a cliff to your death, is the anchor.  If you are anchored in the roots of the gospel then you can examine and question, and evolve your understanding of it all with minimal risk.  If you aren't anchored, then doing those things can be incredibly dangerous.

So, figure out where your anchor points are.  Make sure they are strong and rooted in Christ and His teachings.  Then you can safely explore your new beliefs with little risk.

2) This quote is from the same guy that came up with the repelling analogy.  I don't know him personally and did not get permission to quote him so please don't spread it around, but I thought of it when I was read your OP so I thought it might be useful to you:

So, I would say, figure out your 'knowns' and then use them as a guide to finding the further enlightenment that you are looking for.

Those are my thoughts (or rather, someone else's thoughts shared by me).  Good luck!

I think this is great...thanks

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1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Yes ignoring the puzzle pieces that won't fit is a solution I've considered.  Most of my life I've been told that I should ignore unanswerable questions that don't impact my salvation, but what if those questions are actually a key, sign to whether there is eternal salvation in the first place?  Maybe those questions are unanswerable because they bring into sharp focus whether or not eternal salvation actually is real. What if the emperor really is running around naked and I'm just now recognizing that reality?  Conference left me empty.

As Jiminy Cricket says: "Always let your conscience be your guide."

6079278_jiminy-cricket-jiminy-cricket-tr

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8 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I am not seeking a debate of my conclusions but am certainly willing to entertain additional information that might test my conclusions.

 

Do you have any interest in astronomy?

Edited by gav
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6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is no reason why the moderators would pull your comments here.  We have seen plenty of this here over the years.  There is nothing new in disbelief.  It is a common phenomenon, and there is nothing intellectually wrong with it.

How someone can disbelieve and remain an active part of the LDS (or any other) Church is indeed a more nuanced question, but it has been done in various ways.  Professor Sterling McMurrin remained a member of the LDS Church, but his form of activity within the Mormon culture and religion was to frequently write and speak on the subject.  He had some very nice things to say in defense of Mormon society and theology, and, in his debate with Hugh Nibley, he even defended BYU against Hugh's social criticism.  He openly denied the holy nature of the Book of Mormon, etc., but no one would dare hold a Church court for him, so he was never excommunicated.  He was too important and had too many friends in high places.  Others were excommunicated for far less.

It is not at all uncommon for members of other faiths to deny the fundamentals of those faiths and yet remain active members and even leaders.  They see some value in the mythic quality of those religions, perhaps appreciating the moral and ethical value of that imaginary religious structure, and also claiming that fiction is a wonderful vehicle for communicating truth about human nature and social relationships.

On the other hand, there is the encounter of Oxford Univ Professor Clive Staples Lewis many years ago with the myth of Jesus Christ.  Lewis was a strong atheist who understood Jesus as one of a number of dying and rising gods in antiquity (Osiris, Adonis, Tammuz, etc.).  Lewis was discussing that with a fellow Oxford Don, and these were both sophisticated atheists, fully understanding the context.  Yet, for some reason, Lewis suddenly realized that, despite all the apparent facts, Jesus was actually the real thing.  Why that significant change of view?  How do we explain matters of faith?  How does such a realization come to someone?  Faith and reason are wholely different modes of thought.  C.S. Lewis spent the remainder of his life defending his faith, and he did it with considerable elan.

Thanks Robert. I sincerely appreciate the perfect tone of your post 

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11 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Yes.  I love astronomy.  Currently reading “The End of Everything” fascinating 

Perhaps you would explore, with me, some astronomy derived numbers then, they have some very startling correlations with key restoration and many other events. Closest I can find to "empirical evidence".

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9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I've been on the tipping point for some time but now feel quite confident that the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are not what they each claim to be. I respect those who have come to a different conclusion.  I feel quite confident that both works were not written by actual ancient authors, humans that existed in real time and space nor do I believe that Nephite's or Lamanite's nor Noah, Abraham and probably Moses actually ever existed. I have given up belief in an actual Adam and Eve, living in a Garden of Eden in Missouri, USA, No death before the fall, a universal flood and the tower of Babel. By default, I must also conclude that there was no actual translations of any ancient histories by Joseph Smith but that he was engaged in creating a pseudepigraphal scripture and that these works have their foundations in the 19th century and were creations from Joseph Smith's own creative mind.  They still hold doctrine and have value but my view of them has become more nuanced. 

My aim in this post is not to convince anyone else that my conclusions are correct nor am I asking anyone else to join me in my conclusions but am asking if there is anyone else who has come to a similar conclusion and how you were able to maintaine faith and belief in the church's other claims after coming to this conclusion.  I reached this place in order to maintain mental consistency with what I view as the facts.  I am not seeking a debate of my conclusions but am certainly willing to entertain additional information that might test my conclusions. My fear is that once this thread has been pulled the entire garment falls apart.

If there is anyone here who has traveled this road already and successfully navigated it...how did you maintain belief and faith in the church once you concluded that everything is not what you believed it was? is there still a place in the church for those who hold a nuanced belief?

Note to Administration:  If my post is inappropriate for this board please feel free to delete it.

I’m wondering how it’s possible to have genuine, life transforming faith in a religion when it’s most important truth claims turn out to be nothing but an exceedingly long string of elaborate lies. Perhaps it’s analogous to a loving wife who discovers her husband of many years has been a serial cheater whose been unfaithful since before they were married. But she mulls it over and eventually decides to not confront him on the issue and decides it’s best to spend the rest of her life pretending she didn’t learn the truth because she’s too emotionally attached and dependent on her “husband” to let him go.

So the woman ends up spending the rest of her life in an emotionally taxing charade in which she’s constantly lying to her man and he’s constantly lying to her. But, at least outwardly, the marriage appears to remain intact because in their mutual neuroses there’s too much codependency to just admit the truth and live lives of honesty, forthrightness and integrity.

But perhaps there’s something in all the pretending that’s worthwhile after all because, at least for the wife, a nebulous and tentative something is far better than nothing at all. Perhaps it’s something like stage actors who really “get into character,” and for a few fleeting moments feel as if they actually are the people they are portraying. Come to think of it, throughout history there have no doubt been millions of marriages that have played out in exactly the same way until one of them goes down to the grave and leaves all the playacting behind.

But perhaps it would be better if the wife would simply confront the husband on his infidelity and tell him he can continue on in his extramarital shenanigans as long as he comes home to her and sees her temporal and physical needs. At least this way they could stop with all the hassles and stresses of pretending and at least be honest with each other. I’m thinking this later option would be analogous to you going to your bishop or stake president and being fully transparent by admitting that you believe the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are fraudulent and not what they purport to be. At least that way you could hold on to your integrity and self-respect.

But just know this, regardless of your admissions to the priesthood leaders, your interactions with the believing members will be fraught with danger lest you be perceived as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. So it would likely be best if you were also fully transparent with the members of your congregation and stake, because at least that way it would be far less likely that you’d be accused of mingling with the believing saints while having a surreptitious agenda to undermine their faith. But then again, many would wonder why you would want to remain an active member when you no longer believe the ‘keystone’ of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a true history of very real ancient people.

The bottom line? Be true to yourself and honest with the members unless the priesthood leaders direct that you should keep your loss of faith private.

 

Edited by teddyaware
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7 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Yes ignoring the puzzle pieces that won't fit is a solution I've considered.  Most of my life I've been told that I should ignore unanswerable questions that don't impact my salvation, but what if those questions are actually a key, sign to whether there is eternal salvation in the first place?  Maybe those questions are unanswerable because they bring into sharp focus whether or not eternal salvation actually is real. What if the emperor really is running around naked and I'm just now recognizing that reality?  Conference left me empty.

I think you are pushing things out of whack and mixing priorities. Of course, if the emperor has no clothes it is important....it is the major priority when presenting before the people demanding they recognize the great clothing you have. 

However, trying to equate the reality of Jesus Christ and his Atonement to was Eden in the ancient lands now called Missouri is distorting what is true. It is seeking for a sign because you saw a black cat walking on the left side of the road on the last Friday of the month. This is simply creating roadblocks to create roadblocks.

Spirituality has far more to do with oneself than others.  I consistently come back to the 13th Article of Faith because I believe living in accordance with its counsel leads individuals to greater happiness. 

Spiritual growth can appear to others as rather circuitous; it is always challenging. It demands something of us and seldom is like an apple that falls from the tree on a consistent basis. We have to put ourselves in positions to be inspired and led by the Holy Spirit. 

I also think that some individuals just need to go their own way. If you have found a better path for yourself, follow it and continue to seek after truth. Examine it with the same diligence you have the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

I have spent the vast majority of my life studying world religions. What I mean when I say that is that I study them for greater truth. I do not begin by doing a comparative analysis, but rather a desire to understand and to find the truths that God has given them. 

I am pretty sure I could be a Catholic - or at least, live within Catholicism. However, I would have to consistently be on my guard to maintain a proper frame of mind. For example, I dislike High Church meeting styles and deeply enjoy Eucharistic Adoration. I could also say the same thing about Islam; there is a real beauty there and the manner in which they pray together throughout the day. However, forfeiting the Savior is not something I could do under any circumstance - he will always remain my center touchstone. 

I hope you find peace and realize that peace is directly related to the condition of your heart and Spiritual communion and has nothing to do with what is going on around you. We all have questions that remain unanswered and I do just put them on the shelf until the answer comes. I also know that some may never be answered in this life. 

If I had any counsel to give I would counsel you to learn how to pray more deeply and fully. For me, prayer is seldom about asking for blessings and more about learning to listen to the Spirit as well as praising our Father for all he has done for me and my family. Reading scriptures may assist in setting the proper mindset, but is need necessarily needed. Try it for thirty days and see what happens. 

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12 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I've been on the tipping point for some time but now feel quite confident that the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are not what they each claim to be. I respect those who have come to a different conclusion.  I feel quite confident that both works were not written by actual ancient authors, humans that existed in real time and space nor do I believe that Nephite's or Lamanite's nor Noah, Abraham and probably Moses actually ever existed. I have given up belief in an actual Adam and Eve, living in a Garden of Eden in Missouri, USA, No death before the fall, a universal flood and the tower of Babel. By default, I must also conclude that there was no actual translations of any ancient histories by Joseph Smith but that he was engaged in creating a pseudepigraphal scripture and that these works have their foundations in the 19th century and were creations from Joseph Smith's own creative mind.  They still hold doctrine and have value but my view of them has become more nuanced. 

My aim in this post is not to convince anyone else that my conclusions are correct nor am I asking anyone else to join me in my conclusions but am asking if there is anyone else who has come to a similar conclusion and how you were able to maintaine faith and belief in the church's other claims after coming to this conclusion.  I reached this place in order to maintain mental consistency with what I view as the facts.  I am not seeking a debate of my conclusions but am certainly willing to entertain additional information that might test my conclusions. My fear is that once this thread has been pulled the entire garment falls apart.

If there is anyone here who has traveled this road already and successfully navigated it...how did you maintain belief and faith in the church once you concluded that everything is not what you believed it was? is there still a place in the church for those who hold a nuanced belief?

Note to Administration:  If my post is inappropriate for this board please feel free to delete it.

One must simply grow up and understand that spiritual truths must be perceived spiritually.

Nearly everyone here is on that path or has already taken it, or like you, is looking for it.

One must learn the LESSONS taught by the characters in the story of Adam and Eve, for example, about how we learn that a fall from innocence is necessary to grow up into adult spiritual beings.

Perhaps that is what is happening to you now?

Read Alma 32 and take the stories and parables and allegories and see them for what they are.   Pray for the spirit to educate you on how to understand the value of the scriptures AS allegories etc.   Read the stories and see what is there you can learn from.

I see the story of Noah as an example of how faith in God- the God who can actually speak to your heart in the still small voice- can save us when it appears that everyone around us is drowning in a sea of doubt and evil.  YOU- as Noah- can build your "ark" of belief in a God who is your loving Father and after a time of trial, start your life over in a whole new way, as Noah and his family escaped the flood.

Jesus taught in parables- the prodigal son never really "existed" either- yet we can learn a lot about loving others through that story

It need not be historical for it to be valuable in teaching us important principles of living.

The spirit is real- it is that voice inside of you!   God is real- he loves you and wants you to have a mature understanding of all of this.   This is a test - it is THE test of mortality.

Hang in there and keep asking questions!

Keep at it.

It's worth it to grow up in the gospel and your spiritual understanding.!

 

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11 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Speaking to the OP: Are you speaking of “Faith in God”, or “Faith in the Church”? 

Arn't they one and the same?

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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15 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Arn't they one in the same?

I don't think they are the same thing at all. God is our Father whereas the Church is God's organization created to assist his children to learn more about him. There are many churches and one Body of Christ. I think of the teachings of scripture where God gives the degree of truths to different groups based on what they are able to live. It is not a question of who is "better", but an acknowledgement of who I am and what I can live.

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7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

One must simply grow up and understand that spiritual truths must be perceived spiritually.

Nearly everyone here is on that path or has already taken it, or like you, is looking for it.

One must learn the LESSONS taught by the characters in the story of Adam and Eve, for example, about how we learn that a fall from innocence is necessary to grow up into adult spiritual beings.

Perhaps that is what is happening to you now?

Read Alma 32 and take the stories and parables and allegories and see them for what they are.   Pray for the spirit to educate you on how to understand the value of the scriptures AS allegories etc.   Read the stories and see what is there you can learn from.

I see the story of Noah as an example of how faith in God- the God who can actually speak to your heart in the still small voice- can save us when it appears that everyone around us is drowning in a sea of doubt and evil.  YOU- as Noah- can build your "ark" of belief in a God who is your loving Father and after a time of trial, start your life over in a whole new way, as Noah and his family escaped the flood.

Jesus taught in parables- the prodigal son never really "existed" either- yet we can learn a lot about loving others through that story

It need not be historical for it to be valuable in teaching us important principles of living.

The spirit is real- it is that voice inside of you!   God is real- he loves you and wants you to have a mature understanding of all of this.   This is a test - it is THE test of mortality.

Hang in there and keep asking questions!

Keep at it.

It's worth it to grow up in the gospel and your spiritual understanding.!

 

I honestly appreciate this nuanced approach.  My difficulty is in moving from a literal belief to a more nuanced allegorical belief and the underlying consequences of doing so.  While I take comfort knowing that others have taken this approach before me and have still found value in doing so, if the foundation is squishy, what am I standing on to begin with.  If the very core claims of the church can't be relied on for more their allegorical value or the lessons learned in parables whats the point.  There is great value in the safety that the teachings of the church add to our lives, but ultimately if the promises and rewards of eternal life are allegorical one needs to ask if the sacrifices in this life are worth it.

To borrow from Bluebells analogy, I feel that I've anchored my repelling rope to what I believed was a firm and fixed foundation and it is only after venturing over the side of the cliff that I discovered that I've been mistaken.  I relied of trusted leaders who told me I was securely anchored only to discover that that anchor is not as secure as I was led to believe.  I blame no one but myself for being too trusting.

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