Covid: Trump, the Nation, and Anything

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, no, no....don't put any claim on me in the opening post...my post was solely about getting the Trump stuff...whatever it was or turned out to be....out of the mainly medical related thread. 

Yeah, apologies for that Calm. I intended to be a single post with just informational updates. I am so naive when I am tired.  

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, apologies for that Calm. I intended to be a single post with just informational updates. I am so naive when I am tired.  

Naw, this discussion is enjoyable for me.  I can't do this with family because it gets too intense and then I have to live with them.  And this is something I am a bit obsessed with because of its potential for impact on everyone.  If I could only have it in that thread, .I would have done it.  Thankfully another option existed.  

Here I figure anyone gets too wound up, they can go play a game or watch conference again.   And the mods can decide if it gets too heated.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

My pay has doubled since Trump got elected. The day he won the election money freed up for yacht repair projects and home remodel projects. I hope he wins another 4 years. If the Democrats get in those jobs will dry up. The Democrats will tax the rich to feed the poor and I'll be out of work. 

No offense intended but if the choice is between having remodeled homes with repaired yachts and feeding the poor I personally think the latter should take priority.

We are facing high unemployment and this presidential term is set to be the first on record (post ww2) to end with fewer jobs than the beginning. While individual jobs might flourish on the whole people are suffering. That is not all due to leadership. Short of what would have been seen as draconian measures from the beginning Covid was going to damage us. I was admittedly in favor of the draconian measures in mid February but a quarantine of the nation with all international incoming travelers being put under a 14 day quarantine with testing might have been politically impossible. If we could catch it early and reduce it to scattered cases with rigorous contact tracing we might be back to near normal by now. We didn’t though and even if we had there is a non-zero chance it would have gotten out and spread too far. I just wish we had tried to contain it before it got in. Even still running on his economic record compared to his predecessor is a fool’s game unless you can hide the facts from your listeners.

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

He was thanking his supporters. You choose to interpret it as a photo op. That's on you. 

Rude

[bsjkki]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

Naw, this discussion is enjoyable for me.  I can't do this with family because it gets too intense and then I have to live with them.  And this is something I am a bit obsessed with because of its potential for impact on everyone.  If I could only have it in that thread, .I would have done it.  Thankfully another option existed.  

Here I figure anyone gets too wound up, they can go play a game or watch conference again.   And the mods can decide if it gets too heated.

I don't discuss any of this on my Facebook. I let it all fly by and don't engage. After conference, I decided this is still the right tact to take. I like all my friends, left or right, and don't want to get heated with people I know and serve. Plus, I'm the Primary President. I don't think it would be right to get all confrontational on Facebook. I'll never forget what it was like last election cycle when my Home Teacher and Bishopric member, posted a Trump assassination meme. It's not a good look. Facebook is all about happy family photos for me. I've had family members get disowned by aunts, cousins, friends for supporting Trump due to Facebook. I think it's all nuts. In a small way, this discussion keeps me a little sane and able to brush aside the drive by attacks on my Facebook feed from good friends and relatives. It is ugly, when my ward members go at. So uncomfortable. 

[bsjkki]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No offense intended but if the choice is between having remodeled homes with repaired yachts and feeding the poor I personally think the latter should take priority.

Usually, when the rich do poorly, the poor do more poorly. If the rich don't have investment dollars...my business is gone. My employee's are unemployed.

 

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We are facing high unemployment and this presidential term is set to be the first on record (post ww2) to end with fewer jobs than the beginning

Which is one reason, we need to open up. Are you blaming Trump for the unemployment number during covid. It's quite amazing it is down to 7.7 percent and that is with New York and California still shut down. 

 

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I just wish we had tried to contain it before it got in.

You realize this was impossible. China didn't contain it. They stopped flights from Wuhan to other parts of China, allowed international flights out of Wuhan, while lying to the WHO about human transmission. Place the blame where it belongs. In Jan-Feb, we were in the middle of impeachment. If Trump had shut down, like you propose, he would have been accused of doing just for politics. When he banned Chinese travel, against the advise of the scientists, he was attacked for it. The WHO was against travel bans...which the New York Times just exposed. The CDC definitely messed up testing...those delays were costly. 

The first known case in the US was in Jan in Washington State. We were clueless as to what this virus was at that time...

 

[bsjkki]

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/519560-trump-sought-to-keep-covid-diagnosis-secret-thursday-as-he-awaited?__twitter_impression=true

"People familiar with the president's health told the newspaper that a rapid COVID-19 test returned a positive result before President Trump called in to Fox News for an interview with Sean Hannity on Thursday evening. During the interview, Trump addressed the diagnosis of his aide Hope Hicks with coronavirus but did not reveal that he had apparently already tested positive."

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

You realize this was impossible. China didn't contain it. They stopped flights from Wuhan to other parts of China, allowed international flights out of Wuhan, while lying to the WHO about human transmission. Place the blame where it belongs.

This isn't right. I live in a country that borders on China. A country that had the second highest rate of infection in the first few months. The government here acted quick and the entire nation put on a mask. The result: COVID disappeared completely. The threat we now face is people from countries that didn't act quickly and people that don't wear masks bringing the virus back in. 

I know its convenient to blame China and Asia in general, but they've mostly contained it. Its frustrating to hear Trump continue to call this the China Virus when its far more safe to walk down a street in China then it is to sit in the Rose Garden.

[teddyaware]

26 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

This isn't right. I live in a country that borders on China. A country that had the second highest rate of infection in the first few months. The government here acted quick and the entire nation put on a mask. The result: COVID disappeared completely. The threat we now face is people from countries that didn't act quickly and people that don't wear masks bringing the virus back in. 

I know its convenient to blame China and Asia in general, but they've mostly contained it. Its frustrating to hear Trump continue to call this the China Virus when its far more safe to walk down a street in China then it is to sit in the Rose Garden.

It seems you missed bsjkki’s point. He’s saying it’s true that China tried to control the spread of the virus within its own borders, but then carelessly and callously allowed the virus to spread outside of it’s borders by permitting international flights out of Wuhan, and also by spreading false information through the World Health Organization that there was no concern for human to human transmission.

And your post is the first I heard that “Asia in general” is also being blamed for the initial international spread of the virus.. 

[teddyaware]

38 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Error

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by teddyaware

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

seems you missed bsjkki’s point

I think Rajah’s point was a country right next to China has managed to control Covid spread in comparison to the US.

He was responding to the comment it was impossible to contain. 

[gav]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think Rajah’s point was a country right next to China has managed to control Covid spread in comparison to the US.

He was responding to the comment it was impossible to contain. 

What a lot of people seem to miss in their comparisons is that the earlier strains were less infectious but more deadly. The coronavirus continues to mutate and evolve and so comparisons (not yours or anybody on this board specifically, but in general) between what happened in China, Asia, European first wave, New York, US Second wave, India etc. are flawed and not very wise.

As this coronavirus mutates such comparisons are not apples with apples.

Politicians the world over on the other hand are having a field day exploiting inaccurate comparisons for their own ends.

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global

[Rajah Manchou]

8 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It seems you missed bsjkki’s point. He’s saying it’s true that China tried to control the spread of the virus within its own borders, but then carelessly and callously allowed the virus to spread outside of it’s borders by permitting international flights out of Wuhan, and also by spreading false information through the World Health Organization that there was no concern for human to human transmission.

I'd really like to see some sources for all these claims.

I live about 20 minutes from the airport where the first case of COVID outside China was detected by thermal monitors in the airport. This was on January 13th. By that point, the government was already closely monitoring inbound flights from China and they were able to prevent several infected persons from entering the country. This was 46 days before Trump famously declared COVID was a Democrat Hoax.

On January 22, the first case of transmission to a non-Chinese person also happened in the city where I live. The next day inbound flights from Wuhan were cancelled. America blocked flights from China on January 31.

Where is all this talk of China sending infectious flights all around the world coming from? I know for a fact that a colleague of mine could not get out of Hubei in January. He desperately wanted to fly out of the country but was banned by the Chinese government from leaving. 

I think there's a lot of misinformation coming from the Trump Administration on this. They need to blame someone for not doing more in January to stop the virus. The country I live in was heavily screening inbound flights as soon as they knew their was a virus in Wuhan. Meanwhile Trump was trying to convince us that it was all a hoax, for his own political benefit of course.

[teddyaware]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think Rajah’s point was a country right next to China has managed to control Covid spread in comparison to the US.

He was responding to the comment it was impossible to contain. 

Oh it would have been possible to contain the virus alright, but in doing so we would now be living in the midst of a terrifying worldwide economic depression that, in the end, would have killed and otherwise destroyed the lives of more people than the virus ever could. Even now some experts are saying there will be a great destruction of the Third World countries that will be caused by  economic spillover from the severe blows inflicted upon the First World economies, and that this economic devastation will cause untold human misery and will ultimately prove to be the cause of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of untimely deaths. 

If controlling the spread of the virus was all we had to worry about, without having to also worry about the destruction of the U.S. economy and the implementation totalitarian enforcement measures, we would now possibly be virus free!

By the way, I live a mere 20 travel miles from New York, and in fulfillment of Orson Pratt’s 19th century prophecy the city Is a shuttered  virtual ghost town. It will be interesting to see if the draconian measures implemented by Cuomo and de Blasio will turn out to be worth the destruction of the supposed greatest city on earth and the ruination of the lives of hundreds of thousands of formerly prosperous citizens who once lived in ‘the city that never sleeps.’

Off to work...

[Rajah Manchou]

9 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

if controlling the spread of the virus was all we had to worry about, without having to also worry about the destruction of the U.S. economy and the implementation totalitarian enforcement measures, we would now possibly be virus free!

If only we didn’t have to serve both God and Mammon at the same time, everything would work out fine 

[Rajah Manchou]

Flight from Mesa to Provo

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No offense intended but if the choice is between having remodeled homes with repaired yachts and feeding the poor I personally think the latter should take priority.

We are facing high unemployment and this presidential term is set to be the first on record (post ww2) to end with fewer jobs than the beginning. While individual jobs might flourish on the whole people are suffering. That is not all due to leadership. Short of what would have been seen as draconian measures from the beginning Covid was going to damage us. I was admittedly in favor of the draconian measures in mid February but a quarantine of the nation with all international incoming travelers being put under a 14 day quarantine with testing might have been politically impossible. If we could catch it early and reduce it to scattered cases with rigorous contact tracing we might be back to near normal by now. We didn’t though and even if we had there is a non-zero chance it would have gotten out and spread too far. I just wish we had tried to contain it before it got in. Even still running on his economic record compared to his predecessor is a fool’s game unless you can hide the facts from your listeners.

Of course but I won't be the only carpenter out of work and we'll be added to the list of the poor. There is a long list of people that go traipsing through these houses and yachts. Electricians welders heating and air repair man paint and body diesel repair and so on it doesn't just affect Carpenters.

During Obama's presidency I had to work for 1980s pay rate. As far as I know no one dropped the price of housing fuel and pickup trucks.

Edited October 5, 2020 by rodheadlee
Add information

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I don't discuss any of this on my Facebook. I let it all fly by and don't engage. After conference, I decided this is still the right tact to take. I like all my friends, left or right, and don't want to get heated with people I know and serve. Plus, I'm the Primary President. I don't think it would be right to get all confrontational on Facebook. I'll never forget what it was like last election cycle when my Home Teacher and Bishopric member, posted a Trump assassination meme. It's not a good look. Facebook is all about happy family photos for me. I've had family members get disowned by aunts, cousins, friends for supporting Trump due to Facebook. I think it's all nuts. In a small way, this discussion keeps me a little sane and able to brush aside the drive by attacks on my Facebook feed from good friends and relatives. It is ugly, when my ward members go at. So uncomfortable. 

I'm afraid to ask this one question on FB, would you do me the honor? I'd love to find a list of things that Trump is going to do for the future, does he have a platform or vision? I saw a link yesterday of Biden's and it is lengthy. 

[Calm]

WashPo have a side by side, beginning of the month so you might be able to view for free

https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2020/trump-policies-vs-biden-policies/

Until bsjkki finds a better one...

Edited October 5, 2020 by Calm

[bsjkki]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

This was 46 days before Trump famously declared COVID was a Democrat Hoax

Never happened. Don’t believe our media or Biden about this.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/

What's False

Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

[bsjkki]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Where is all this talk of China sending infectious flights all around the world coming from?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/blogs/Whathappensif/how-china-locked-down-internally-for-covid-19-but-pushed-foreign-travel/

China’s traffic density below 10% in Feb, but criticises global traffic curbs

China’s vice-minister of foreign affairs Qin Gang met Italy’s ambassador to China Luca Ferrari in Beijing following the flight ban. “Italy’s decision to stop flights without contacting China in advance caused great inconvenience to citizens of both countries. Many Chinese are still stranded in Italy,” the foreign ministry said on its website the following day. The U.S. issued a travel advisory against China travel on the 2nd of February but did not ban all services. While Chinese authorities limited domestic flights from Wuhan to other Chinese cities like Beijing and Shanghai in an effort to contain the outbreak in January, it urged international carriers to maintain their flying schedules. The Civil Aviation Administration of China stated “In order to meet the needs of passengers in and out of the country and the international transport of supplies during this special period … airlines [are required to] … continue transport to nations that have not imposed travel restrictions.”

China’s assertion that all was well for international travel was supported by the WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus at the opening of the agency’s Executive Board meet on the 3rd February. He said ” There is no reason for measures that unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade. We call on all countries to implement decisions that are evidence-based and consistent. WHO stands ready to provide advice to any country that is considering which measures to take,” Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying criticised the US advisories saying “The U.S. government hasn’t provided any substantial assistance to us, but it was the first to evacuate personnel from its consulate in Wuhan, the first to suggest partial withdrawal of its embassy staff, and the first to impose a comprehensive travel ban on Chinese travellers”

[bsjkki]

This is an excellent timeline of the coronavirus in the US. Very comprehensive. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_the_United_States

I find it ironic that those who wanted a nationwide lockdown in February also blame Trump for the unemployment rate. We shut down this economy in March and it’s amazing it’s not much, much worse.

A February shut down wasn’t feasible. Democrat leaders were still encouraging tourism and resisting travel bans. I flew out of NYC, the day the first covid case in New York in Rochester was announced.

[Rajah Manchou]

3 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Never happened. Don’t believe our media or Biden about this.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/

What's False

Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

Despite creating confusion with his remarks? Exactly.

"He muddied the waters a few minutes later, however, by comparing the number of coronavirus fatalities in the U.S. (none, at that point in time) to the number of fatalities during an average flu season, and accusing the press of being in “hysteria mode”

This is Trump's MO. Blow a troll horn or a dog whistle to get everybody worked up and then muddy the waters so he can't actually be held accountable for what he just said. Stand down and stand by. If you haven't picked up on this pattern yet, just look at the White House response to the most basic questions about the status of Trump's lungs right this moment. They can't give a simple straight answer.

This administration cannot give a simple straight answer about a basic question like, when did President Trump first test positive for COVID? If we go with one answer, its false. If you go with the other answer, also false. The media is always telling lies because they quote the confusion that Trump creates.

[bsjkki]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

. Meanwhile Trump was trying to convince us that it was all a hoax, for his own political benefit of course.

This is a blatantly false statement. CFR

[bsjkki]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was admittedly in favor of the draconian measures in mid February but a quarantine of the nation with all international incoming travelers being put under a 14 day quarantine with testing might have been politically impossible

Me and you both. I think we were both watching this develop. I cheered the travel ban on Feb. 2nd but felt it was weeks too late. I was shocked at the reaction to this from political opponents. 

It was a crazy time with the impeachment hearing.

The travel ban from Europe was too late too. In February, I think leaders from both parties were hoping we could quarantine/check travelers and contain this. Italy (by way of Wuhan) seeded NYC and Colorado. The international, rich skier spread it throughout the west. Our governor was slow to shut down ski resorts. Should have shut down sooner. 

But its all Monday morning quarterbacking. It was already here and spreading by mid February but the CDC testing debacle made it difficult to know it. For most who were sick early, they thought it was just the flu.