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Arise and Come Forth Unto Me


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I had some questions on this section of the manual.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf
 

310 - ... Everyone had talked of him, sung of him, dreamed of him, and prayed for 
his appearance-but here he actually was. The day of days!

313 - There were about 2,500 people gathered in Bountiful when Jesus Christ appeared 
(see 3 Nephi 17:25). Despite this large number, the Savior invited them each "one by
one" to feel the nail prints in His hands and feet (3 Nephi 11:14–15). What does this 
suggest to you about the importance of having personal experiences that build faith
in Jesus Christ?
 

Do you need to have such a personal experience of Christ (to see and to touch Him) to
build your faith like those lacking faith described in verses 14-15?   When I look at 
this passage, it seems that those touching Jesus at his invitation were really displaying 
a lack of faith (based on what was said on page 310).

I was also surprised by the statement made in 3 Nephi 12:1 – "... therefore blessed are 
ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, *after* that ye have seen me and know 
that I am".

I would say we are more blessed if we believe and are baptized 'before* we see him (as
John 20:29 says).
 

315 - Perhaps you could read some of these verses in a soft, "small voice" (3 Nephi 
11:3). What did the people have to do to understand the voice from heaven?

I looked at these verses. It says they opened their ears the third time and then
they understood.  Why didn't they open their ears the first or second time?

Edited by TheTanakas
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2 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I had some questions on this section of the manual.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf
 

310 - ... Everyone had talked of him, sung of him, dreamed of him, and prayed for 
his appearance-but here he actually was. The day of days!

313 - There were about 2,500 people gathered in Bountiful when Jesus Christ appeared 
(see 3 Nephi 17:25). Despite this large number, the Savior invited them each "one by
one" to feel the nail prints in His hands and feet (3 Nephi 11:14–15). What does this 
suggest to you about the importance of having personal experiences that build faith
in Jesus Christ?
 

Do you need to have such a personal experience of Christ (to see and to touch Him) to
build your faith like those lacking faith described in verses 14-15?   When I look at 
this passage, it seems that those touching Jesus at his invitation were really displaying 
a lack of faith (based on what was said on page 310).

I was also surprised by the statement made in 3 Nephi 12:1 – "... therefore blessed are 
ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, *after* that ye have seen me and know 
that I am".

I would say we are more blessed if we believe and are baptized 'before* we see him (as
John 20:29 says).

 

315 - Perhaps you could read some of these verses in a soft, "small voice" (3 Nephi 
11:3). What did the people have to do to understand the voice from heaven?

I looked at these verses. It says they opened their ears the third time and then
they understood.  Why didn't they open their ears the first or second time?

Did you somehow miss the following verse?

2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins. (3 Nephi 12)

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2 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I had some questions on this section of the manual.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf
 

310 - ... Everyone had talked of him, sung of him, dreamed of him, and prayed for 
his appearance-but here he actually was. The day of days!

313 - There were about 2,500 people gathered in Bountiful when Jesus Christ appeared 
(see 3 Nephi 17:25). Despite this large number, the Savior invited them each "one by
one" to feel the nail prints in His hands and feet (3 Nephi 11:14–15). What does this 
suggest to you about the importance of having personal experiences that build faith
in Jesus Christ?
 

Do you need to have such a personal experience of Christ (to see and to touch Him) to
build your faith like those lacking faith described in verses 14-15?   When I look at 
this passage, it seems that those touching Jesus at his invitation were really displaying 
a lack of faith (based on what was said on page 310).

I was also surprised by the statement made in 3 Nephi 12:1 – "... therefore blessed are 
ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, *after* that ye have seen me and know 
that I am".

I would say we are more blessed if we believe and are baptized 'before* we see him (as
John 20:29 says).
 

315 - Perhaps you could read some of these verses in a soft, "small voice" (3 Nephi 
11:3). What did the people have to do to understand the voice from heaven?

I looked at these verses. It says they opened their ears the third time and then
they understood.  Why didn't they open their ears the first or second time?

The people in verses 14-15 did not lack faith. In heeding His invitations, they exercised faith. When they advanced in their capacity to see, hear and heed, they exercised faith, even if it took three stages or steps.

We do not need to see and touch Him literally to build faith. We live in His wake or track, whether the Creation, His Mission or His Legacy, and thus have many spiritual things to see and touch. He reveals Himself physically to mortals for His own purposes.

In 3 Nephi 12:1 and John 20:29 Jesus is speaking to two different audiences under two different circumstances with to different invitations. While his purposes for His appearing are quite similar, there are also some differences unique to the audiences. That is a much broader discussion.

Why don’t you “hear” or fully “hear” the Lord’s whisperings to you the first and second time, and yet the Lord is patient with you until you do?

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I would also like to point out that in the prior two chapters when The Nephite nation was being destroyed and the world was in darkness, God spoke, he only spoke once and everyone heard (3 Nephi 10:1). 
 

When we are distressed and seeking God, it is easy to hear him. 

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duplicate

Edited by Bernard Gui
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duplicate

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Sorry for the confusion.

How important are eyewitnesses to our testimony?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Getting some weird results when I try to post.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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50 minutes ago, Fether said:


 

When we are distressed and seeking God, it is easy to hear him. 

Sometimes...it depends on what the source of the distress is.  At times it may be so ooverwhelming the suffering is all that is there.

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6 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I had some questions on this section of the manual.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf
 

310 - ... Everyone had talked of him, sung of him, dreamed of him, and prayed for 
his appearance-but here he actually was. The day of days!

313 - There were about 2,500 people gathered in Bountiful when Jesus Christ appeared 
(see 3 Nephi 17:25). Despite this large number, the Savior invited them each "one by
one" to feel the nail prints in His hands and feet (3 Nephi 11:14–15). What does this 
suggest to you about the importance of having personal experiences that build faith
in Jesus Christ?
 

Do you need to have such a personal experience of Christ (to see and to touch Him) to
build your faith like those lacking faith described in verses 14-15?   When I look at 
this passage, it seems that those touching Jesus at his invitation were really displaying 
a lack of faith (based on what was said on page 310).

This is almost the same exact question asked in this thread (The Savior Ministered to His Other Sheep), so you may want to review some of the answers there.  

The people in 3 Nephi 11:14-15, by doing what Jesus asked them to do, were becoming eyewitnesses to the bodily resurrection of Jesus in the Americas.  This is proven by what Jesus says to them in 3 Nephi 12:2, already quoted by teddyaware above, "more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am". 

In the New Testament the twelve apostles and several women were witnesses of the resurrection.  In Luke 24:39, Jesus says, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."  Paul mentions later that Jesus "was seen of above five hundred brethren at once" (1 Cor 15:6).  The same kind of witness foundation had to also be established in the Americas, and that was the purpose of Jesus having them come up and feel the nail prints in his hands and feet.  Merely seeing him wasn't sufficient, they needed to interact with him in order to be able to testify of the physical nature of the resurrection.  Otherwise, how could they say they were seeing a resurrected being rather than a ghost or a spirit?  (The apostles thought they were seeing his spirit when Jesus appeared to them in Luke 24:37, but Jesus proved to them otherwise.)  They wouldn't have any way to say they "knew" of his physical resurrection otherwise.

6 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I was also surprised by the statement made in 3 Nephi 12:1 – "... therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, *after* that ye have seen me and know that I am".

I would say we are more blessed if we believe and are baptized 'before* we see him (as John 20:29 says).

This was already answered nicely by teddyaware (above) by providing the context (the next verse says those who believe in their words are "more blessed").  This was also addressed extensively in the other thread mentioned above.

6 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

315 - Perhaps you could read some of these verses in a soft, "small voice" (3 Nephi 11:3). What did the people have to do to understand the voice from heaven?

I looked at these verses. It says they opened their ears the third time and then they understood.  Why didn't they open their ears the first or second time?

This passage has always reminded me of the story of when the LORD called Samuel, in 1 Samuel 3:1-8.  The LORD called Samuel's name in the night three separate times, and even though Samuel heard his name called he didn't understand that it was the LORD calling him and ran to Eli, and Eli didn't figure it out until the third time that it was the LORD calling Samuel.  

In the context of 3 Nephi 11:3, there was a multitude of people and they were all conversing about Jesus and the things that had happened.  The text says that it was "while they were thus conversing one with another" (verse 3) that the voice spoke to them.  There were a lot of distractions, and so they didn't quite understand what was going on until the third time.  But I really like what it says that was different about the third time they heard the voice:

Quote

5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.
6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them: 
7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

They looked "steadfastly toward heaven", their eyes and ears were turned to act and understand.  I take this as a lesson to us all in today's busy world.  Even if we are busy talking about Jesus and thinking of him, this may even be a distraction to us if we don't take the time to "look steadfastly towards heaven" (in a manner of speaking) to listen to what God may want to tell us. 

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

Sometimes...it depends on what the source of the distress is.  At times it may be so ooverwhelming the suffering is all that is there.

I think of coming upon someone who has been traumatized. They may be incoherent, in pain,  or confused, and it may take several attempts to break through their shock to get their attention.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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23 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I had some questions on this section of the manual.

https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020-large-print-eng.pdf
 

310 - ... Everyone had talked of him, sung of him, dreamed of him, and prayed for 
his appearance-but here he actually was. The day of days!

313 - There were about 2,500 people gathered in Bountiful when Jesus Christ appeared 
(see 3 Nephi 17:25). Despite this large number, the Savior invited them each "one by
one" to feel the nail prints in His hands and feet (3 Nephi 11:14–15). What does this 
suggest to you about the importance of having personal experiences that build faith
in Jesus Christ?
 

Do you need to have such a personal experience of Christ (to see and to touch Him) to
build your faith
like those lacking faith described in verses 14-15?   When I look at 
this passage, it seems that those touching Jesus at his invitation were really displaying 
a lack of faith (based on what was said on page 310).

We can have experiences that build our faith even when we already have some faith to build on.  Faith is about feeling sure or certain of something and we can grow from being kind of sure or pretty sure to totally sure.

 

23 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I was also surprised by the statement made in 3 Nephi 12:1 – "... therefore blessed are 
ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, *after* that ye have seen me and know 
that I am".

I would say we are more blessed if we believe and are baptized 'before* we see him (as
John 20:29 says).

He said that too.

23 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

315 - Perhaps you could read some of these verses in a soft, "small voice" (3 Nephi 
11:3). What did the people have to do to understand the voice from heaven?

I looked at these verses. It says they opened their ears the third time and then
they understood.  Why didn't they open their ears the first or second time?

Imagine yourself seeing him and hearing him.  And then recovering from your astonishment of seeing him and hearing him to the point that you can actually hear what he is saying.

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On 9/20/2020 at 7:13 PM, teddyaware said:

2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am.

Are you more blessed believing the words of a Christian who has never seen Jesus or the words of
a Christian who has seen Jesus?

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1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Are you more blessed believing the words of a Christian who has never seen Jesus or the words of
a Christian who has seen Jesus?

I would say that, in general, one is more blessed if he is able to gain a true, Spirit-born testimony of Christ’s divinity through personal revelation rather than through having to first see him as a resurrected Being who performs mighty miracles, or speak with someone who has seen him as a mighty resurrected Being who performs mighty miracles. Nevertheless, of all the authentic Spirit-born testimonies of Christ that have been or are now being born of him on this earth, all have their ultimate origin in the testimonies of those who indeed have seen him in the flesh or seen him in heavenly visions. 

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On 9/22/2020 at 5:03 PM, teddyaware said:

I would say that, in general, one is more blessed if he is able to gain a true, Spirit-born testimony of Christ’s divinity through personal revelation rather than through having to first see him as a resurrected Being who performs mighty miracles, or speak with someone who has seen him as a mighty resurrected Being who performs mighty miracles. Nevertheless, of all the authentic Spirit-born testimonies of Christ that have been or are now being born of him on this earth, all have their ultimate origin in the testimonies of those who indeed have seen him in the flesh or seen him in heavenly visions. 

Sister Gui and I talked about this last week. What a blessing to be at the temple in Zarahemla and to witness all the glorious things that happened there! I can’t imagine a greater experience. Their testimonies as well as the witnesses in Jerusalem are foundation of our faith. Many fell away who saw the Savior perform miracles on other occasions, but none of these did. While greater faith is required to believe other’s words, even those who receive the spiritual can witness fall away. So we had a hard time understanding why the witnesses were blessed, but those who believe their words are blessed more. What do you think that means?

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On 9/22/2020 at 8:03 PM, teddyaware said:

I would say that, in general, one is more blessed if he is able to gain a true, Spirit-born testimony of Christ’s divinity through personal revelation rather than through having to first see him as a resurrected Being

So why did it say "therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen
me and know that I am"?

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3 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

So why did it say "therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen
me and know that I am"?

Because they were blessed by believing in him and being baptized, even after they had seen him and knew that he was. 

Those who believed in him and were baptized even though they had not seen him were blessed even more though because they believed in him and knew that he was even though they had not seen him.

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On 9/21/2020 at 12:57 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Sorry for the confusion.

How important are eyewitnesses to our testimony?

An interesting question.

Without the witness of an eyewitness, how would we begin to know of ourselves? We see it written in the New Testament that Christ was resurrected and seen by many. If we did not have that witness (which we could either reject or accept) then how would we be able to take the next step, which is to acquire our own witness?  After our own witness is obtained, the eyewitness is no longer so necessary, but without it, well, it's just a legend.  This is where I take issue with Islam. The only witness is Mohammed.  No-one else saw what he saw. The Law of Witnesses requires two or three witnesses, and they must be eyewitnesses, as far as I can tell.  In the end, as far as I am aware, there is no other faith, other than Judaism and Christianity, where multiple eyewitnesses of God are attested. Buddha was alone. Baháʼu'lláh (Bahai') was also alone, as were Zoroaster (Zoroastrianism) and Guru Nanak (Sikhism). Jainism doesn't even have a creator God that could offer a witness -- the Universe has just always been there.

Anyway, eyewitnesses are extremely necessary. But we needn't be personally acquainted with them.

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5 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

So why did it say "therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen
me and know that I am"?

Ahab is correct. Within the context of the portion of the Savior’s words in the Book of Mormon from which you quote we learn that there are two groups of the blessed who come unto him — the blessed who see him in the flesh who are thereafter baptized and converted, and the second group of the more blessed who are baptized even though they have not seen the Savior in the flesh but are converted through the testimony born of Him by his authorized servants.

Edited by teddyaware
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6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sister Gui and I talked about this last week. What a blessing to be at the temple in Zarahemla and to witness all the glorious things that happened there! I can’t imagine a greater experience. Their testimonies as well as the witnesses in Jerusalem are foundation of our faith. Many fell away who saw the Savior perform miracles on other occasions, but none of these did. While greater faith is required to believe other’s words, even those who receive the spiritual can witness fall away. So we had a hard time understanding why the witnesses were blessed, but those who believe their words are blessed more. What do you think that means?

I believe it means that though there can be no doubt that having the resurrected Savior minister to you personally, and then be truly converted unto him through the marvels you witness during that wondrous experience, is one of the greatest blessings one could ever enjoy in while in mortality, nonetheless, being truly converted unto God without first having seen the resurrected Savior in the flesh also comes with It’s own special set of blessings as It requires great faith to truly believe in the Lord without first having him minister to you personally in an openly manifest display of his eternal power and glory. This principle is a corollary to the admonition that one is more blessed if he is able to believe in the reality of Christ without first having to see convincing signs. 

Edited by teddyaware
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18 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I believe it means that though there can be no doubt that having the resurrected Savior minister to you personally, and then be truly converted unto him through the marvels you witness during that wondrous experience, is one of the greatest blessings one could ever enjoy in while in mortality, nonetheless, being truly converted unto God without first having seen the resurrected Savior in the flesh also comes with It’s own special set of blessings as It requires great faith to truly believe in the Lord without first having him minister to you personally in an openly manifest display of his eternal power and glory. This principle is a corollary to the admonition that one is more blessed if he is able to believe in the reality of Christ without first having to see convincing signs. 

I recognize that it takes greater faith to accept someone's word. The Nephites at the temple in Zarahemla had already exhibited more faith than I can imagine. They survived mortal persecution because of their faith, endured catastrophic death and destruction, experienced horrifying days of terrifying darkness, and yet survived to see the resurrected Lord in whom they had trusted without seeing. I don't know what more could be expected as a trial of faith.

So, do you think that those who witnessed the events and testified of them are somehow inferior to those who believe on their words, or are they less blessed here on earth and will receive a lesser award in the next life? Without their testimonies, how would we know of the events that took place? Are they penalized in some way because they were there to see? What kind of blessings are we talking about? More bricks in their mansion in heaven, more good things happening here on earth? Just some questions that come to mind. I have long had a hard time understanding this saying of Jesus. Maybe it's just one of those "difficult sayings."

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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