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'Despite All We Can Do' – 2 Nephi 25:23 in Literary and Rhetorical Context


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On 9/22/2020 at 11:41 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

I still prefer to consider that verse in wider rhetorical context:

II Ne 10:24,

 

REMEMBER THAT[1]

 

AFTER YE ARE RECONCILED UNTO GOD[2]

 

THAT IT IS ONLY IN AND THROUGH THE GRACE OF GOD THAT YE ARE SAVED[3]

 

 

 

II Ne 25:23,

 

AND TO BE RECONCILED TO GOD[4]

 

FOR WE KNOW THAT IT IS BY GRACE THAT WE ARE SAVED[5]

 

AFTER ALL THAT[6] WE CAN DO

 

 

 

Alma 24:11

 

SINCE IT HAS BEEN ALL THAT WE COULD DO

 

AS WE WERE THE MOST LOST OF ALL MANKIND

 

TO REPENT OF ALL OUR SINS

 

AND THE MANY MURDERS WHICH WE HAVE COMMITTED

 

AND TO GET GOD TO TAKE THEM AWAY FROM OUR HEARTS

 

FOR IT WAS ALL WE COULD DO TO REPENT SUFFICIENTLY BEFORE GOD

 

THAT HE WOULD TAKE AWAY OUR STAINS[7]
 

 

Ephesians 6:13 (ISV)

 

take up the whole armor of God

 

so that you may be able to take a stand whenever evil comes.

 

And when you have done everything you could,

 

you will be able to stand firm. [καὶ ἅπαντα κατεργασάμενοι]

 


[1] that P 1830; deleted Pc 1837 thru 1981, RLDS 1908.

 

[2] ǁRom 5:10, "we were reconciled to God."

 

[3] ǁ25:23 ǁ Eph 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" ǁ Acts 15:11, "through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved"

 

[4] ǁII Cor 5:20, "we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" ǁ      Rom 5:10, "we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"

 

[5] ǁ10:24 ǁ Eph 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith"(ǁ   Eph 2:5); cf Rom 4:16.

 

[6] that P 1830; deleted 1837 thru 1981, RLDS 1908.

 

[7] [s]tains O; stain P 1830 thru 1981, RLDS 1908.

 

And,
 

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Alma 24:15 Oh, how merciful is our God! And now behold, since it has been as much as we could do to get our stains taken away from us, and our swords are made bright, let us hide them away that they may be kept bright, as a testimony to our God at the last day, or at the day that we shall be brought to stand before him to be judged, that we have not stained our swords in the blood of our brethren since he imparted his word unto us and has made us clean thereby.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 9/20/2020 at 5:59 PM, Dan McClellan said:

Thanks for the kind words! I agree that the text seems to be addressing that tension, and providing its own framework for resolving it. Hopefully more work will be done in the future on the question. 

I tend to agree with you position on the paper. 

I heard an Israeli visiting scholar argue (years ago at USC) that the so called "tension" in James 2:14-26 arises from a limited insight into the intended audience of the letter. This scholar was not a Christian but rather a Jewish academic that specialized in history of the Old and New Testaments. She argued that in the first century and even today, Jews tended to interpret hardship, disease and suffering with punishment and chastisement from God for which the afflicted needed to repent and atone. Personal interventions by third parties could invite a reprisal from God. In fact, even today, some Christians hold to the same view. Christ, in the other hand, taught that we are to help and support one another in our trials ("...bear each other burdens...") while ignoring the reasons why such trail has come upon the believer. Therefore, she posited, James was confronting the remnant of that belief system within the Jewish converts to Christianity that nevertheless held on to cultural baggage associated with old rabbinical teachings. 

The scriptures make it abundantly clear that we are saved by grace, through faith. Elder Renlund make an exquisite exposition of this precise point in conference this past week. There is absolutely nothing we can do to earn salvation. All we do (works) is driven by faith and love of the Savior. The bible references to grace in salvation are many. Nephi acknowledges that much in several passages 2 Ne 10:24, 25:23, 31:15-21. Elsewhere; Alma 26:16, Mor 10:32-33. 

We are to be driven by love to service and obedience. Any other motive is rejected by God and will be worthless and to no avail, no matter what it is. We are all the recipients of unqualified grace; undeserved favor that is gifted to us. Our response, moved by the Spirit, is to pour our hearts in love and devotion to our neighbors and our God which is the evidence of true faith and salvation (good works) .  

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On 10/9/2020 at 12:42 PM, Islander said:

I tend to agree with you position on the paper. 

I heard an Israeli visiting scholar argue (years ago at USC) that the so called "tension" in James 2:14-26 arises from a limited insight into the intended audience of the letter. This scholar was not a Christian but rather a Jewish academic that specialized in history of the Old and New Testaments. She argued that in the first century and even today, Jews tended to interpret hardship, disease and suffering with punishment and chastisement from God for which the afflicted needed to repent and atone. Personal interventions by third parties could invite a reprisal from God. In fact, even today, some Christians hold to the same view. Christ, in the other hand, taught that we are to help and support one another in our trials ("...bear each other burdens...") while ignoring the reasons why such trail has come upon the believer. Therefore, she posited, James was confronting the remnant of that belief system within the Jewish converts to Christianity that nevertheless held on to cultural baggage associated with old rabbinical teachings. 

The scriptures make it abundantly clear that we are saved by grace, through faith. Elder Renlund make an exquisite exposition of this precise point in conference this past week. There is absolutely nothing we can do to earn salvation. All we do (works) is driven by faith and love of the Savior. The bible references to grace in salvation are many. Nephi acknowledges that much in several passages 2 Ne 10:24, 25:23, 31:15-21. Elsewhere; Alma 26:16, Mor 10:32-33. 

We are to be driven by love to service and obedience. Any other motive is rejected by God and will be worthless and to no avail, no matter what it is. We are all the recipients of unqualified grace; undeserved favor that is gifted to us. Our response, moved by the Spirit, is to pour our hearts in love and devotion to our neighbors and our God which is the evidence of true faith and salvation (good works) .  

Are we talking about salvation (from death, Hell, and the Devil) or exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are we talking about salvation (from death, Hell, and the Devil) or exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom?

I was, rather, addressing the issue of the alleged "tension" between works vs faith in James 2:13-14. Still, salvation is by grace. Beyond that, the Lord will reward whom He will and bring exaltation according to what is in the heart of man and which fruit was made manifest in mortality thru good works. 

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5 hours ago, Islander said:

I was, rather, addressing the issue of the alleged "tension" between works vs faith in James 2:13-14. Still, salvation is by grace. Beyond that, the Lord will reward whom He will and bring exaltation according to what is in the heart of man and which fruit was made manifest in mortality thru good works. 

...and done the works and ordinances He requires for exaltation.

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On 10/3/2020 at 9:04 PM, teddyaware said:

Because of our fallen natures, the best we can hope for in this life is to sincerely strive, with God’s help, to do his will, but always do so the with humble awareness that no matter how earnestly and sincerely we might strive to keep his law our efforts will never enough to satisfy the inflexible and exacting demands of divine justice.

I can understand that, but where did God ever give commandments as try to obey instead of you must obey?

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21 hours ago, theplains said:

I can understand that, but where did God ever give commandments as try to obey instead of you must obey?

First of all, the New Testament is quite literally filled with admonitions for the followers of Christ to conform their lives to the will of God, and that God expects them to do so. Next, the reason why sin is so deadly to the spirit is that God is morally bound to punish sin because he cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. The wages of sin is spiritual death and there are no exceptions to that fixed and inflexible law of divine justice.

The only way anyone can escape God’s retributive justice when they commit sin is for them to exercise faith in Christ as Saviour and Redeemer and sincerely repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If God’s “commandments” were nothing more than earnestly given suggestions, spiritual death and eternal punishment could not be justly meted out if individuals fail to follow to through on carrying out those mere suggestions.

 

Edited by teddyaware
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On 10/12/2020 at 3:28 PM, Bernard Gui said:

...and done the works and ordinances He requires for exaltation.

We should do "works" in love, in faithful obedience and with immense gratitude that the Lord has allowed us to participate and be fellow laborers in the work of salvation. The "work" offered to the Lord is a byproduct, the fruit of abiding and a testimony of our faith. Ordinance for its own sake or as a pretense is worthless before the Lord. Don't forget, many died whom in their time did not know the law and did not participated in the ordinance but had faith that could move mountains. And such faith was imputed to them for righteousness and will be partaker of exaltation. 

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1 hour ago, Islander said:

We should do "works" in love, in faithful obedience and with immense gratitude that the Lord has allowed us to participate and be fellow laborers in the work of salvation. The "work" offered to the Lord is a byproduct, the fruit of abiding and a testimony of our faith. Ordinance for its own sake or as a pretense is worthless before the Lord. Don't forget, many died whom in their time did not know the law and did not participated in the ordinance but had faith that could move mountains. And such faith was imputed to them for righteousness and will be partaker of exaltation. 

Nevertheless, except for exceptions regarding accountability, all must receive the required ordinances. 

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13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nevertheless, except for exceptions regarding accountability, all must receive the required ordinances. 

Nobody that is touched by the Spirit, repents of their sins, embraces the Gospel in faith and desires to give his/her life to Christ and thus become new in the kingdom of God will fail to receive the ordinances. Again, the ordinance will NOT save you. It did not save Israel. The Lord is more interested in what is in your heart that prompts you to "do" what we need to do "to fulfill all righteousness". Jesus had no sin, He did not need baptism but He did it because of His love for the Father, as an example to ALL of us. The thief on the cross next to Jesus received no ordinance prior to his death but was received by Jesus on account of faith. Do not get hung up on the ordinance. There are many thousands that will never see the kingdom of heaven because, although they received the ordinances at some time past, have fallen away and today deny the faith. They are lost, no matter what ordinances they received previously. That was the error of Israel. They believed themselves the chosen people, them of the covenant, the children of Abraham. Christ said unless you repent, believe that I AM and come onto me, in faith, believing that I am the Savior of your soul, you can not be saved in the kingdom of God. Lineage, ritual, liturgy, by themselves, are not the means of salvation.  

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5 hours ago, Islander said:

Nobody that is touched by the Spirit, repents of their sins, embraces the Gospel in faith and desires to give his/her life to Christ and thus become new in the kingdom of God will fail to receive the ordinances. Again, the ordinance will NOT save you. It did not save Israel. The Lord is more interested in what is in your heart that prompts you to "do" what we need to do "to fulfill all righteousness". Jesus had no sin, He did not need baptism but He did it because of His love for the Father, as an example to ALL of us. The thief on the cross next to Jesus received no ordinance prior to his death but was received by Jesus on account of faith. Do not get hung up on the ordinance. There are many thousands that will never see the kingdom of heaven because, although they received the ordinances at some time past, have fallen away and today deny the faith. They are lost, no matter what ordinances they received previously. That was the error of Israel. They believed themselves the chosen people, them of the covenant, the children of Abraham. Christ said unless you repent, believe that I AM and come onto me, in faith, believing that I am the Savior of your soul, you can not be saved in the kingdom of God. Lineage, ritual, liturgy, by themselves, are not the means of salvation.  

I believe that Christ did indeed need the ordinance of baptism just as much as we all do, and this in order to continue to grow spiritually unto eternal perfection. For without his faithful submission to the ordinance of baptism he would have sinned and his spiritual progress would have come to a halt.

It’s no mere happenstance that the Holy Ghost descended upon him at the time of his baptism, for his reception of the fulness of the gift of the Holy Ghost at that time was given in response to his humility in the acknowledgment that without the constant indwelling of his Father‘s knowledge and power, through the gift of the Holy Ghost, he would be dammed and unable to fulfill his mission. This is why Christ told Phillip, “it is not I who have done these things but the Father who dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” 

By his willingness to submit to baptism, Christ was acknowledging that It was the power of the Father that enabled him to remain sinless, and the same divine power that enabled him to grow spiritually until he was fully capacitated and equipped to successfully offer an infinite and eternal sacrifice for sin.

By submitting to baptism, Christ was not merely setting and example or performing an act he actually didn’t need to do, but by obeying the commandment to be baptized he was testifying to all men that without consciously choosing to internalize the redemptive power of God. in God’s own appointed way, that all men, including himself, would be denied the divine knowledge and power needed in order to obtain salvation. Christ needed to be baptized for his own salvation’s sake, for without baptism, both by water and the Spirit, his spiritual progress would have come to an end and all mankind, including himself, would be eternally damned forever. John expresses this principle perfectly...

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Without humbly submitting to baptism Christ would not have remained sinless and would not have received the fulness of the power of God. Christ was sinless by virtue of his Father, not by his own virtue apart from the Father.

Edited by teddyaware
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10 hours ago, Islander said:

Nobody that is touched by the Spirit, repents of their sins, embraces the Gospel in faith and desires to give his/her life to Christ and thus become new in the kingdom of God will fail to receive the ordinances. Again, the ordinance will NOT save you. It did not save Israel. The Lord is more interested in what is in your heart that prompts you to "do" what we need to do "to fulfill all righteousness". Jesus had no sin, He did not need baptism but He did it because of His love for the Father, as an example to ALL of us. The thief on the cross next to Jesus received no ordinance prior to his death but was received by Jesus on account of faith. Do not get hung up on the ordinance. There are many thousands that will never see the kingdom of heaven because, although they received the ordinances at some time past, have fallen away and today deny the faith. They are lost, no matter what ordinances they received previously. That was the error of Israel. They believed themselves the chosen people, them of the covenant, the children of Abraham. Christ said unless you repent, believe that I AM and come onto me, in faith, believing that I am the Savior of your soul, you can not be saved in the kingdom of God. Lineage, ritual, liturgy, by themselves, are not the means of salvation.  

Of course the ordinances by themselves cannot save. No one is making that the issue except you. Nephi explained the fundamental importance of ordinances, but this does not mean he was “hung up” on them.

Nevertheless, the ordinance of baptism is required. We must do it. Also the ordinance of laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost 2  Nephi 31 makes this crystal clear.  Words of the Father...one of the few times in all scripture He is quoted.

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5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

This  is the will of the Father and the Son: Follow the Son, full purpose of heart, no hypocrisy or deception, having real intent, repenting of sins, witnessing to the Father, following the Lord into the water, receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (preceded by an ordinance)....and then enduring in faith to the end.

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14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.
15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

Jesus reiterated and reinforced this doctrine to the Nephites in Zarahemla in 3 Nephi 27:

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14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

D&C 128 extends the necessity of the ordinances of baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost to the dead who have not been baptized. It is that important. Other ordinances such as those of the temple receive the same emphasis for living and dead.

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5 You may think this order of things to be very particular; but let me tell you that it is only to answer the will of God, by conforming to the ordinance and preparation that the Lord ordained and prepared before the foundation of the world, for the salvation of the dead who should die without a knowledge of the gospel.

The physical ordinances are essential but not sufficient. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course the ordinances by themselves cannot save. No one is making that the issue except you. Nephi explained the fundamental importance of ordinances, but this does not mean he was “hung up” on them.

Nevertheless, the ordinance of baptism is required. We must do it. Also the ordinance of laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost 2  Nephi 31 makes this crystal clear.  Words of the Father...one of the few times in all scripture He is quoted.

This  is the will of the Father and the Son: Follow the Son, full purpose of heart, no hypocrisy or deception, having real intent, repenting of sins, witnessing to the Father, following the Lord into the water, receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (preceded by an ordinance)....and then enduring in faith to the end.

Jesus reiterated and reinforced this doctrine to the Nephites in Zarahemla in 3 Nephi 27:

D&C 128 extends the necessity of the ordinances of baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost to the dead who have not been baptized. It is that important. Other ordinances such as those of the temple receive the same emphasis for living and dead.

The physical ordinances are essential but not sufficient. 

Christ DID NOT need baptism. He was sinless and perfect in every way. He is the perfect Lamb, without flaw and without spot. To fulfill all righteousness means to obey. A perfect example for us. Nephi said it, we know we are not saved by the law but we keep it because of commandments. Obedience to the word of God, the principles of God were the operating principle there. ALL the commandments are directed at the human heart; sin being the fruit of the evil desires of our hearts. The ordinance is ALWAYS symbolic, signifying to the heart the course to follow. That is why those that perform it outwardly, without a true change of heart are rejected by the Lord. That was the point I was trying to make.

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On 10/22/2020 at 7:33 PM, Islander said:

Christ DID NOT need baptism. He was sinless and perfect in every way. He is the perfect Lamb, without flaw and without spot. To fulfill all righteousness means to obey. A perfect example for us. Nephi said it, we know we are not saved by the law but we keep it because of commandments. Obedience to the word of God, the principles of God were the operating principle there. ALL the commandments are directed at the human heart; sin being the fruit of the evil desires of our hearts. The ordinance is ALWAYS symbolic, signifying to the heart the course to follow. That is why those that perform it outwardly, without a true change of heart are rejected by the Lord. That was the point I was trying to make.

Here’s how I see it. Even though Jesus was perfectly righteous (holy), He needed to be baptized because the Father commanded that all men must be baptized, and He was perfectly obedient to the Father. If he did not obey the Father in all things (fulfill all righteousness), he could not have been perfect.

On 10/22/2020 at 9:15 AM, Bernard Gui said:

And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness...

 

We who are not righteous need baptism because of we are unclean. We also do it to obey the commandments of the Father and the Son. Whatever is in our heart, we still must be baptized.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 10/15/2020 at 3:27 PM, teddyaware said:

The wages of sin is spiritual death and there are no exceptions to that fixed and inflexible law of divine justice.

Do you believe that about Adam and Eve?

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9 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe that about Adam and Eve?

If you’d ever read the Book of Mormon, you would know Latter-Day Saints believe the transgression Of Adam and Eve caused physical and spiritual death to enter the world, and that only through the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Christ can mankind be redeemed from physical and spiritual death...

6 For as adeath hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful bplan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of cresurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the dfall; and the fall came by reason of etransgression; and because man became fallen they were fcut off from the gpresence of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an ainfinite batonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the cfirst judgment which came upon man must needs have dremained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

8 O the awisdom of God, his bmercy and cgrace! For behold, if the dflesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who efell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the fdevil, to rise no more. 

9 And our spirits must have become alike unto him, and we become devils, bangels to a cdevil, to be dshut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of elies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who fbeguiled our first parents, who gtransformeth himself nigh unto an hangel of light, and istirreth up the children of men unto jsecret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

10 O how great the agoodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our bescape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, cdeath and dhell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. (2 Nephi 9)

 

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On 10/23/2020 at 12:33 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Here’s how I see it. Even though Jesus was perfectly righteous (holy), He needed to be baptized because the Father commanded that all men must be baptized, and He was perfectly obedient to the Father. If he did not obey the Father in all things (fulfill all righteousness), he could not have been perfect.

We who are not righteous need baptism because of we are unclean. We do it to obey the commandments of the Father and the Son. Whatever is in our heart, we still must be baptized.

We are on agreement in that Jesus received baptism in obedience to the Father. We, in the other and, desperately NEED baptism. We come, in repentance, with full awareness of our sin and seeking the washing away, the renewing and the rebirth offered by the covenant. 

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On 10/24/2020 at 7:13 PM, teddyaware said:

If you’d ever read the Book of Mormon, you would know Latter-Day Saints believe the transgression Of Adam and Eve caused physical and spiritual death to enter the world,

Is that a blessing or a punishment?

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3 minutes ago, theplains said:

Is that a blessing or a punishment?

Yes. 

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26 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

" despite " all we can do seems a slippery slope to Calvinism .

It only may seem like a slippery to Calvinism if one doesn’t understand what Nephi is actually teaching.

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1 hour ago, theplains said:

Is that a blessing or a punishment?

It’s both. If one doesn’t come unto Christ in living faith, and through him receive a remission sins and redemption from the fallen state through the Holy Spirit, it’s a punishment; but conversely, if one does come unto Christ in authentic faith and through him receive a remission sins and spiritual rebirth through the companionship of the Holy Ghost, it’s a blessing. 

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