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Word of God From the Gentiles?


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7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Paul was a Jew by culture and a rabbi by training, but a member of the tribe of Benjamin.  He was not a Gentile.  Jews who are citizens of any polity remain Jews.  Jews living in the USA, for example, are not Gentiles.

Paul was of the Tribe of Benjamin on his fathers side and a Greek on his mother’s side, making him partially of Gentile heritage, as all Greeks were called Gentiles by the Tribe of Judah. His ministry to the Greeks/ Gentiles transferred the Gospel to the Protestant world today, while Peter ministered to the Romans and the Jewish converts commingled among them.  The Protestant Catholic divide, simply repeat the  old divisions of Judah from Israel, with the Gentiles/Greeks being engraftment onto the body of Israel by Paul.

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2 hours ago, Jracforr said:

The statements I make are based on the facts as I understand them, and they represent my personal opinion.

Then please explain how you got there. 

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1 hour ago, Jracforr said:

Paul was of the Tribe of Benjamin on his fathers side and a Greek on his mother’s side...

Another CFR as scripture has him a Hebrew of Hebrew or pure blooded. 
 

https://biblehub.com/nlt/philippians/3.htm

In the future please mark any speculation as in my opinion or imo for short so neither of us have to waste time. 

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1 hour ago, Jracforr said:

Paul was of the Tribe of Benjamin on his fathers side and a Greek on his mother’s side, making him partially of Gentile heritage, as all Greeks were called Gentiles by the Tribe of Judah. His ministry to the Greeks/ Gentiles transferred the Gospel to the Protestant world today, while Peter ministered to the Romans and the Jewish converts commingled among them.  The Protestant Catholic divide, simply repeat the  old divisions of Judah from Israel, with the Gentiles/Greeks being engraftment onto the body of Israel by Paul.

If his mother was non-Jewish, then Paul was non-Jewish by Jewish law.  However, we know that Paul was a Jew, so your claim about his mother is wildly speculative and false.  In his time, the early Christian Church was a Jewish Church, even though he began the process of bringing in Gentiles -- despite the opposition of Jewish Christian leaders.  Protestants and Catholics did not yet exist, so that your comments about them are irrelevant.   You need to read Romans 11 about the future of the Jews as a separate body from the Gentiles.

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On 9/15/2020 at 8:41 AM, Jracforr said:

The statements I make are based on the facts as I understand them, and they represent my personal opinion.

The Tribe of Benjamin was virtually exterminated in a civil war in the early years of Israel’s existence, leaving a few male Benjamite survivors, whom the Tribes of Israel would not allow their daughters to marry.  These survivors were permitted to take Gentile / Greek women from the city of Shiloh as wives. Judges 21.  Thereby making the survivors a hybrid Hebrew/Greek mix, not surprisingly Paul and numerous members of this hybrid tribe, lived among their Greek Matriarchs in Tarsus, and not in Israel. Equally unsurprisingly is the fact that God chose this mixed Benjamite to take the Hebrew Gospel, in which he was so learned, to his Greek/Gentile ancestors.
It is obvious that the thoughtful  deliberate method the LDS Church uses to determine each Missionary’s field of service, is just a extension of God’s method in choosing his Apostle’s field of service.

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17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The only weirdness in Paul’s heritage is how he got Roman citizenship but that does not require having non-Jewish parents.

What is even weirder, is that Paul’s heritage is passed on to the Anglo/Welsh people of Britain, whose pride in their Benjamite heritage is unwittingly celebrated in their Iconic Big Ben Clock and Saint Paul’s Cathedral  in London, weird but true

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40 minutes ago, Jracforr said:

What is even weirder, is that Paul’s heritage is passed on to the Anglo/Welsh people of Britain, whose pride in their Benjamite heritage is unwittingly celebrated in their Iconic Big Ben Clock and Saint Paul’s Cathedral  in London, weird but true

Wow you just speculate about everything, and fail to provide any link to where you come up with this stuff or identify it as your opinion.

We all have the internet.  This is what I have found, which sounds way more passable than your speculation

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While some theorize that the prodigious bell’s nickname derived from another 19th-century English heavyweight known as “Big Ben,” bare-knuckle boxing champion Ben Caunt, the most likely eponym is Sir Benjamin Hall, a Welsh civil engineer who served as a member of the House of Commons for nearly three decades. As First Commissioner of Works, Hall oversaw the latter stages of the rebuilding of the Houses of Parliament following a devastating 1834 fire, and his name is inscribed on the bell hanging in the clock tower.

The fact that Sir Benjamin Hall's name is on the bell seems like pretty solid evidence.

 

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There still seems to be quite a bit of confusion on what exactly is a gentile.  I offer the definition of gentile to show that while members of the Church have changed the meaning, it is not how the rest of the world defines what a gentile is.

 

 
 
 
 
gen·tile
/ˈjentīl/
adjective
  1. 1. 
    not Jewish.
    "Christianity spread from Jewish into Gentile cultures"
     
  2. 2. 
    ANTHROPOLOGY
    relating to or indicating a nation or clan, especially a gens.
noun
  1. a person who is not Jewish.
     
    This is just one of those words that Mormons have morphed into their own meaning.  I am not saying that is wrong, but I think we should be clear that the Mormon definition of Gentile is not the same as the Jewish definition or how the rest of the world defines gentile.
     
    Another definition from Websters
    gen·tile | \ ˈjen-ˌtī(-ə)l  \

    Definition of gentile

     (Entry 1 of 2)

    1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faithespecially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew
    2: HEATHEN, PAGAN
    3often capitalized : a non-Mormon
     
    They include the Mormon usage of the word as the third definition.  Has anyone found a definition that says anyone outside the house of Israel is a gentile outside of Mormon definitions?
     
    Just wondering where some of these new definition of gentile are coming from.
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1 hour ago, california boy said:

There still seems to be quite a bit of confusion on what exactly is a gentile.  I offer the definition of gentile to show that while members of the Church have changed the meaning, it is not how the rest of the world defines what a gentile is.

 

 
 
 Has anyone found a definition that says anyone outside the house of Israel is a gentile outside of Mormon definitions?
  1.  
    Just wondering where some of these new definition of gentile are coming from.

Here you go:

Quote

It appears that every faith has used it that way, including Jews.

An example from the Bible:

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These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.[15]

 

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

Wow you just speculate about everything, and fail to provide any link to where you come up with this stuff or identify it as your opinion.

We all have the internet.  This is what I have found, which sounds way more passable than your speculation

The fact that Sir Benjamin Hall's name is on the bell seems like pretty solid evidence.

 

Take a moment to read what I wrote, and you will see I used that word “ UNWITTINGLY “which means NOT KNOWING ,that their BIG BEN celebrates that part of their heritage which is derived from Benjamin. The source of the name is irrelevant to what I said , however it’s Symbolism is even more remarkable, as you stated, it was derived from a Welsh individual, the very people who added the Hebrew bloodline to the hybrid Greek family.

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5 hours ago, Jracforr said:

Take a moment to read what I wrote, and you will see I used that word “ UNWITTINGLY “which means NOT KNOWING ,that their BIG BEN celebrates that part of their heritage which is derived from Benjamin. The source of the name is irrelevant to what I said , however it’s Symbolism is even more remarkable, as you stated, it was derived from a Welsh individual, the very people who added the Hebrew bloodline to the hybrid Greek family.

Rolls eyes.  I guess we will just have to get used to you posting speculative posts with NO credible sources even when asked for a CFR that support your made up ideas and views for a little while until the web moderators get tired of you not following the rules.  You have yet to post a credible source for your speculative idea that the the Welsh people come from the tribe of Benjamin, let alone to the leap that Big Ben is named after the Tribe of Benjamin.

This board is not some crazy theory site that might exist elsewhere on the internet.  Part of the rules for posting on this site is a call for reference, which you have been told about already and asked to provide by Calm.  There are consequences for not abiding by the rules of this board.  You might read through those rules to see if this is a place you should be.  So far, it is not looking too good for you.

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6 hours ago, pogi said:

Here you go:

It appears that every faith has used it that way, including Jews.

An example from the Bible:

 

Thanks Pogi for the additional information.  It is interesting that dictionaries do not include a more broader view of the term Gentile.

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15 hours ago, Jracforr said:

What is even weirder, is that Paul’s heritage is passed on to the Anglo/Welsh people of Britain, whose pride in their Benjamite heritage is unwittingly celebrated in their Iconic Big Ben Clock and Saint Paul’s Cathedral  in London, weird but true

Weird and an unsubstantiated guess.

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On 9/13/2020 at 3:41 PM, caspianrex said:

Thanks all for the different opinions and clarifications on my question!

Always interesting to learn more about a religious tradition that is different from my own.

THE MINISTRY OF CHRIST THROUGH THE APOSTLE PAUL FULFILLED THE

PROPHECY SPOKEN IN GENESIS 49:10. 

“The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be” 

The destruction of JERUSALEM and the EXILE OF THE JEWS, ended JUDAH’S role as lawgivers at the time of CHRIST.

The Matriarchal heritage of the  Tribe of Benjamin was derived from the captive Gentile Women of SHILOH, while it’s  Patriarchal heritage was Hebrew,[Judges 21:16-20] .This Hybrid Tribe was drafted into the Ministry of Christ, in the person of the Apostle Paul,  who took the Gospel to the Gentiles, therefore his writings in the New Testament, constitute Christ’s message to the Gentiles people whom were gathered by “Shiloh their kinsman”

  

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/12/2020 at 7:18 AM, caspianrex said:

This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

image.png.5bff418a04b0a232d376b0ffbc26a284.png

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

Mr.. Osmond appears to be an ill-informed "cultural" Latterday Saint. The  introduction of the BoM describes what, who and when and where the record was developed. 

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1 hour ago, Islander said:

Mr.. Osmond appears to be an ill-informed "cultural" Latterday Saint. The  introduction of the BoM describes what, who and when and where the record was developed. 

Actually Mr. Osmond basing this on the prophecies:

  1. Jews shall be first and the Gentiles last (the interval between the formation of the House of Israel beginning with Abraham and the time of worldwide missionary effort led by Simon Peter and Paul, etc).  The Gentiles had a thriving church but eventually degenerated into the Great Apostasy.
  2. The Last shall be First and the First shall be Last.  Who was first in the Dispensation of Fullness of Times?  Joseph Smith, even though it has been stated that he is a pure Ephraimite (therefore a Jew), he is symbolically a Gentile whose parents are descended from European stock.  Most people believe that the Lost Ten Tribes are diffused into the nations of Europe (including Russia).  All nations of Europe are considered to be gentile.  We are still waiting for the Jews to be "gathered" into the Fold of Christ. 
Edited by longview
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On 10/9/2020 at 4:52 PM, longview said:

Actually Mr. Osmond basing this on the prophecies:

  1. Jews shall be first and the Gentiles last (the interval between the formation of the House of Israel beginning with Abraham and the time of worldwide missionary effort led by Simon Peter and Paul, etc).  The Gentiles had a thriving church but eventually degenerated into the Great Apostasy.
  2. The Last shall be First and the First shall be Last.  Who was first in the Dispensation of Fullness of Times?  Joseph Smith, even though it has been stated that he is a pure Ephraimite (therefore a Jew), he is symbolically a Gentile whose parents are descended from European stock.  Most people believe that the Lost Ten Tribes are diffused into the nations of Europe (including Russia).  All nations of Europe are considered to be gentile.  We are still waiting for the Jews to be "gathered" into the Fold of Christ. 

You lost me there....

Te BoM was written by Jews, be it exiles to the new land, beginning some 500 years before the coming of Christ. Like I mentioned, the introduction describes ALL those details.

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20 hours ago, Islander said:

You lost me there....

Te BoM was written by Jews, be it exiles to the new land, beginning some 500 years before the coming of Christ. Like I mentioned, the introduction describes ALL those details.

Lehi and his clan left old Jerusalem exactly 600 years before the birth of Christ (1 N 19:8).  You are correct that Lehi and his descendants Jews from the tribe of Manasseh.  Mulekites were also Jews whose leader Mulek was from the tribe of Judah.

What are you confused about?  Are you not familiar with numerous scriptures referring to the first and last?  See 1 N 13:42.

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I was taught that the term Jew only applied to the tribe of Judah and Benjamin. And that name was given them after the split up between Judah and Israel.

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2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I was taught that the term Jew only applied to the tribe of Judah and Benjamin. And that name was given them after the split up between Judah and Israel.

According to Wikipedia the term derives from Yehudi which means from the Kingdom of Judah.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/12/2020 at 4:57 PM, longview said:

Lehi and his clan left old Jerusalem exactly 600 years before the birth of Christ (1 N 19:8).  You are correct that Lehi and his descendants Jews from the tribe of Manasseh.  Mulekites were also Jews whose leader Mulek was from the tribe of Judah.

What are you confused about?  Are you not familiar with numerous scriptures referring to the first and last?  See 1 N 13:42.

No confusion. I was stating the obvious in contrast with the statement made by Mr. Osmond. The BoM was NOT written by gentiles. It may have been translated by one but it originated with Jewish exiles to the Americas some 600 years BC.

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1 minute ago, Islander said:

No confusion. I was stating the obvious in contrast with the statement made by Mr. Osmond. The BoM was NOT written by gentiles. It may have been translated by one but it originated with Jewish exiles to the Americas some 600 years BC.

The first and the last refers to the fact that it does not matter when you come to the Gospel/Church/Salvation; a hundred years ago or a day ago. The Lord will reward according to His grace and mercy regardless of any other concern. That is clear from the parable of the workers in Matt 20 which is in juxtaposition with the encounter with the rich, young ruler in Matt 19. Who gets to receive what reward in the kingdom of God? Only He knows that. It is not dependent on how long you have been part of the Church or how many times you went to the temple or how much tithing you paid. The Lord decides. That was the intent of the teaching.

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On 10/12/2020 at 11:34 PM, rodheadlee said:
On 10/12/2020 at 11:27 PM, rodheadlee said:

I was taught that the term Jew only applied to the tribe of Judah and Benjamin. And that name was given them after the split up between Judah and Israel.

According to Wikipedia the term derives from Yehudi which means from the Kingdom of Judah.

I believe that the term Jew is derived from Hebrew.  Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph all the way through to the time of the Exodus were known as Hebrews.  Therefore the entire House of Israel by blood lineage are Jews.  I don't know about adoptions.

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I'm sorry but you are wrong. :)

If DR Gene Scott were alive he could give all the reasons why, along with chapter and verse.

It is certainly a Hebrew term but it was applied by the country of Israel to the members of the country of Judah. 

Edited by rodheadlee
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