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Word of God From the Gentiles?


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This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

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Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

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18 minutes ago, caspianrex said:

This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

image.png.5bff418a04b0a232d376b0ffbc26a284.png

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

From the title page, the Book of Mormon is a record kept by a family of the House of Israel "Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile..." There are several passages that describe this is greater detail: 1 Nephi 13, 2 Nephi 30:3, 3 Nephi 21:5-6. The House of Israel, once scattered and lost, became part of of the gentile nations, and this is the context in which the Book of Mormon came forth from the gentiles many centuries after the original records and abridgment were engraved by identifiable members of the House of Israel.

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A Gentile is anyone who is not from the tribe of Judah. So basically the entire world are gentiles unless the person is a Jew (from the tribe of Judah}

Ephraim and Manasseh are the sons of Joseph and part of the 12 tribes the Old Testament talks about.  They. are all Israelites since they are all descent of Jacob/Israel. They are separate tribes from the tribe of Judah.

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

A Gentile is anyone who is not from the tribe of Judah. So basically the entire world are gentiles unless the person is a Jew (from the tribe of Judah}

Ephraim and Manasseh are the sons of Joseph and part of the 12 tribes the Old Testament talks about.  They. are all Israelites since they are all descent of Jacob/Israel. They are separate tribes from the tribe of Judah.

This has confused a number of my Jewish friends as they considered a Jew was from any of the tribes and not just Judah.  

 

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9 hours ago, caspianrex said:

This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

image.png.5bff418a04b0a232d376b0ffbc26a284.png

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

It is not my understanding. Both books come from the House of Israel or from the Jewish people. I don't think I have ever heard this line of thinking - that the Jews are solely those from the House of Judah. I am surprised to see others repeat it here.

 

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As we can see, the terms Jew and gentile (and even Gentile capitalized) can mean different things in different contexts, each valid in its own right. This is why specific questions need to be addressed from the corresponding and proper context.

Edited by CV75
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9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As we can see, the terms Jew and gentile (and even Gentile capitalized) can mean different things in different contexts, each valid in its own right. This is why specific questions need to be addressed from the corresponding and proper context.

I disagree.  The entire world refers to gentiles as simply being non Jews.  It is only the Mormon church that has decided a gentile can refer to everyone that is a non Mormon.  Those are the only terms used in for the word gentile.  The quote by Alan Osmond is correct.  There are not a lot of different contexts for this word.

 

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Giving this a bit more thought:

The Jews produced the original writings of the Old and New Testaments. What happened after that is a rich story.

Lehi and his descendants did not consider themselves Jews. They were from the tribe of Joseph. The Book of Mormon is explicit in that Lehi was of Manasseh, and it is said that Joseph Smith taught that Ishmael was of Ephraim. The Mulekites had lost their identity as Jews, and joined in with the Nephites, but in any case, did not contribute to the writings of the Book of Mormon. Neither did either of these family groups consider themselves gentiles, but of the House of Israel.

Joseph Smith eventually realized he was an Ephraimite descendant living in a gentile nation (hence the Restored Gospel and Book of Mormon coming through the gentiles). After that, and now that the keys and covenants of the gathering of Israel were restored, the House of Israel is again being established. There are specific prophecies concerning the tribes of Judah and Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh, the former in restoring and exercising the keys – at least in the beginning centuries in preparation for the Lord’s Second Coming -- and the latter in building the New Jerusalem in America).

The Twitter post might come across as a bit fuzzy on the timing of when the latter-day scattered and lost Josephites realized they were not gentiles after all, just living in a gentile nation as gentiles would prior to their reorganization into and identification with the House of Israel. There seems to have been a suspicion all along that some of the settlers of the American colonies were descendants of at least this one lost tribe.

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32 minutes ago, california boy said:

I disagree.  The entire world refers to gentiles as simply being non Jews.  It is only the Mormon church that has decided a gentile can refer to everyone that is a non Mormon.  Those are the only terms used in for the word gentile.  The quote by Alan Osmond is correct.  There are not a lot of different contexts for this word.

 

The descendants of Joseph in the Book of Mormon identified as being of the House of Israel, but not as Jews, and certainly not as gentiles.

To disabuse anyone of any casual, colloquial interpretation of what "the Mormon church ...has decided," here is what the Church publishes for the various meanings of "gentile" as used in scripture:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/gentile?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/gentiles?lang=eng

It is appropriate for questions about the Book of Mormon scripture to be answered in the context of the Book of Mormon.

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13 hours ago, caspianrex said:

This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

image.png.5bff418a04b0a232d376b0ffbc26a284.png

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

I think Alan means well but is confusing terms.  We do not teach that the BoM is from the mouth or lineage of gentiles (Joseph of the Bible was no gentile).  We teach that it was brought forth in the last days by gentiles.  That is very different.  
What he is referring to is the stick of Judah (Bible) and the stick of Joseph (BoM) passage.

He is also wrong to imply that “the American Indian” (implying all of them) are descendants of Lehi.

Edited by pogi
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Gentile is a bad term to use. Lehi and his party considered themselves Israelites but also had a disconnect from the “Jews”. Gentile does not mean just the tribe of Judah or the Levites and Benjamites and the mixture of the rest who were of the Jewish faith would be Gentiles.

Our faith has used the term in so many ways that it gets very confusing. Nephi talks of the Gentiles as accepting the gospel so it is clear he thought of the invading Europeans in his vision as Gentiles even though many of them (including myself) are descended from the Twelve Tribes. In the early days Church members referred to non-members as gentiles. It was rarely a slur. It was mostly just a descriptor. Presumably Jews would not have been included in that but there were few to none around so it was not really relevant.

In any case Nephi definitely did not think of his people as gentiles. Alan Osmond’s take is wrong except For Jewish usage and using it is more confusing than enlightening. If he asked my opinion I would suggest not using that term again.

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"..the promises of the Lord are great unto the Gentiles..." (1 Nephi 10:9). There there are many passages in the Book of Mormon concerning the blessing of the Gentiles. God also "remembereth the heathen" (2 Nephi 26:33).

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Thanks all for the different opinions and clarifications on my question!

Always interesting to learn more about a religious tradition that is different from my own.

Edited by caspianrex
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https://www.jewishutah.com/templates/articlecco_cdo/aid/2925273/jewish/Tight-knit-Group-of-Jews-Live-in-Utah-Home-to-This-Years-Olympics.htm

NEW YORK (Jan. 2002)

"Utah is probably the only place where a Jewish political candidate has ever been criticized for being a gentile.

On the campaign trail in 1916, Simon Bamberger, who was elected the state’s first and only Jewish governor, had to argue his way into a meeting hall by saying, “As a Jew I’ve been called many a bad name, but this is the first time in my life that I’ve been called a damned gentile.”

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 9/12/2020 at 7:18 AM, caspianrex said:

........................................

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

 

On 9/12/2020 at 7:45 AM, CV75 said:

From the title page, the Book of Mormon is a record kept by a family of the House of Israel "Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile..." There are several passages that describe this is greater detail: 1 Nephi 13, 2 Nephi 30:3, 3 Nephi 21:5-6. The House of Israel, once scattered and lost, became part of of the gentile nations, and this is the context in which the Book of Mormon came forth from the gentiles many centuries after the original records and abridgment were engraved by identifiable members of the House of Israel.

I am a bit surprised at this misunderstanding.  Members of the House of Israel don't just magically become Gentiles.  Except for the book of Ether, the entire Book of Mormon is a production by Israelites (tribes of Manasseh and Judah).  Members of the LDS Church are also considered to be Israelites, although that is likely meant to be by adoption.

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On 9/12/2020 at 7:18 AM, caspianrex said:

This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

image.png.5bff418a04b0a232d376b0ffbc26a284.png

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

I too disagree with the way Alan presents this, however, The Book of Mormon itself describes itself as coming forth from the Gentiles; it just wasn't written by them. It was translated and preserved by them. So it is not inaccurate to say that the Book of Mormon has come forth from the Gentiles.  It is part of the stick of Joseph, as is also I believe the D & C since that came directly through Joseph Smith who was a Gentilized Ephraimite. 

The way it is phrased also makes it sound like he is saying the American Indian is Manasseh, so that too needs to be rephrased. I believe he is talking about Mormon or Moroni - it is not clear. But yes, the Gentiles are bringing forth the gospel through Manasseh and Ephraim, so he is essentially correct. Maybe he could say it better. To me it is confusing, so I understand your being confused.

Edited by RevTestament
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On 9/12/2020 at 9:18 AM, caspianrex said:

This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

image.png.5bff418a04b0a232d376b0ffbc26a284.png

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

The Hebrew people from which Abraham and his wife are derived is a hybrid mix, of Celtic and Gentile/Aryan blood. The Israeli Tribes derived from Leah primarily represent the Celtic component of the family, while those descended from Rachel’s son Joseph are more of Gentile / Aryan stock, similar to the Classical Greeks who were commonly referred to as Gentiles. The Book of Mormon maybe referred to as coming from the Gentile, because of it’s association with the  Israeli descendants of Joseph.

Edited by Jracforr
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On 9/12/2020 at 6:18 AM, caspianrex said:

This just showed up in my Twitter news feed, and as I am not a Latter-day Saint, I found it confusing.

Perhaps someone can inform me, is Mr. Osmond representing the Book of Mormon accurately?

His tweet was in response to one of his Twitter followers asking what the difference was between the Bible and the BoM.

image.png.5bff418a04b0a232d376b0ffbc26a284.png

Surely, Lehi and his descendants would have considered themselves Jews, wouldn't they?

I'm wondering if this is a fairly common position in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Please don't take this as criticism of the Church in general. I am asking a sincere question.)

Notice that Alan said the Book of Mormon is the word of God from the gentiles while saying the Bible is the word of God from the mouth of the Jews. 

 think Alan was talking about how the Book of Mormon was brought into the modern world from the gentiles who wrote for a prophet of God as he translated the original writings.

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2 hours ago, Jracforr said:

The Hebrew people from which Abraham and his wife are derived is a hybrid mix, of Celtic and Gentile/Aryan blood. The Israeli Tribes derived from Leah primarily represent the Celtic component of the family, while those descended from Rachel’s son Joseph are more of Gentile / Aryan stock....

And you are getting this info from where exactly?

Call for references (means you are required to state your source and if possible, provide a link for it).

Edited by Calm
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16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

I am a bit surprised at this misunderstanding.  Members of the House of Israel don't just magically become Gentiles.  Except for the book of Ether, the entire Book of Mormon is a production by Israelites (tribes of Manasseh and Judah).  Members of the LDS Church are also considered to be Israelites, although that is likely meant to be by adoption.

Also,when you are somewhat familiar with family history it is easy to see that virtually every person on Earth could be a member of the House of Israel by birth.

Incredibly, all people descended from European stock are descendants of Charlemagne who lives in the 4th century a d.

If I have my information right there is a gap of about 2200 years between Jacob who became Israel and Charlemagne.

There were 12 sons of Jacob or Israel.

Charlemagne was one person.

The 12 sons of Israel were reproducing for around 2200 years before Charlemagne was born, and yet every modern European is a descendant of only one person,  Charlemagne.

Yes it's highly speculative but I would wager that most of the world's population by this point could be direct descendant from some of the sons of Israel or all of them even.

Our line of descent in patriarchal blessings, in my belief, are given by revelation solely as a spiritual reminder of our roots and indicating what could be a literal line.  And yet I have a personal testimony that they are real prognostications of what we can achieve in our lives. I have seen them work out virtually miraculously too many times to believe otherwise.

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

I am a bit surprised at this misunderstanding.  Members of the House of Israel don't just magically become Gentiles.  Except for the book of Ether, the entire Book of Mormon is a production by Israelites (tribes of Manasseh and Judah).  Members of the LDS Church are also considered to be Israelites, although that is likely meant to be by adoption.

Briefly:

The Book of Ether was written by Jaredites but was discovered and kept by King Benjamin and abridged by Moroni (and either of them could have translated it), rendering its production as part of the Book or Mormon under members of the House of Israel.

Please remind me which parts of the Book of Mormon was written by members of Judah. The five books of Moses aren't in there, at least the current, unsealed publication we use.

Remnant members of the House of Israel were scattered among the gentile nations (1 Nephi 22: 3-6) and as far as many of them are concerned, they did not know they were of the House of Israel until the Restoration (including Joseph Smith), whether by reading the Book or Mormon early on, or as time went on, by revelations in the D&C, or by Patriarchal Blessings.

Paul was both Jew (of the House of Israel) and a Roman citizen making him as a Gentile (1 Corinthians 9:20-21, Acts 16 and 22). I see Joseph Smith, from whom the Book of Mormon came forth, in the same light. He was a descendant of Joseph (per the Book of Mormon) but also born into a gentile nation. I do not know at what point he realized he was of the House of Israel, one by lineage and two by receiving the restored covenants and becoming authoritatively circumcised of heart.

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7 hours ago, CV75 said:

........The Book of Ether was written by Jaredites but was discovered and kept by King Benjamin and abridged by Moroni (and either of them could have translated it), rendering its production as part of the Book or Mormon under members of the House of Israel.

I was referring to the heritage of the Jaredites, which was fully non-Israelite.  Their record, the book of Ether, is an entirely Gentile record.

Quote

Please remind me which parts of the Book of Mormon was written by members of Judah.

The Nephites before the birth of Christ and before His visit in III Nephi, were a combination of the Mulekites (Judah) and the Lehites (Manasseh) -- the people of Zarahemla.  After Christ came to the New World, even the Lamanites were included as Nephites, all of the House of Israel.  One cannot generally distinguish members of the tribe of Judah from the tribe of Manasseh in the BofM.

Quote

Remnant members of the House of Israel were scattered among the gentile nations (1 Nephi 22: 3-6) and as far as many of them are concerned, they did not know they were of the House of Israel until the Restoration (including Joseph Smith), whether by reading the Book or Mormon early on, or as time went on, by revelations in the D&C, or by Patriarchal Blessings.

Those who have assimilated with the Gentiles may indeed not recognize their Jewish or Israelite heritage.  God only knows how that is to be dealt with in the future.

Quote

Paul was both Jew (of the House of Israel) and a Roman citizen making him as a Gentile (1 Corinthians 9:20-21, Acts 16 and 22). I see Joseph Smith, from whom the Book of Mormon came forth, in the same light. He was a descendant of Joseph (per the Book of Mormon) but also born into a gentile nation. I do not know at what point he realized he was of the House of Israel, one by lineage and two by receiving the restored covenants and becoming authoritatively circumcised of heart.

Paul was a Jew by culture and a rabbi by training, but a member of the tribe of Benjamin.  He was not a Gentile.  Jews who are citizens of any polity remain Jews.  Jews living in the USA, for example, are not Gentiles.

The LDS D&C recognizes the descent of members of Jewish priesthood (of the lineage of Aaron), thus obviously rejecting the notion that they are Gentiles.  Indeed, DNA shows that they are a distinct group for over 3 thousand years now.  https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-oldest-organization-of-the-world/answer/Bob-Smith-3106  .

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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16 hours ago, Calm said:

And you are getting this info from where exactly?

Call for references (means you are required to state your source and if possible, provide a link for it).

The statements I make are based on the facts as I understand them, and they represent my personal opinion.

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7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was referring to the heritage of the Jaredites, which was fully non-Israelite.  Their record, the book of Ether, is an entirely Gentile record.

The Nephites before the birth of Christ and before His visit in III Nephi, were a combination of the Mulekites (Judah) and the Lehites (Manasseh) -- the people of Zarahemla.  After Christ came to the New World, even the Lamanites were included as Nephites, all of the House of Israel.  One cannot generally distinguish members of the tribe of Judah from the tribe of Manasseh in the BofM.

Those who have assimilated with the Gentiles may indeed not recognize their Jewish or Israelite heritage.  God only knows how that is to be dealt with in the future.

Paul was a Jew by culture and a rabbi by training, but a member of the tribe of Benjamin.  He was not a Gentile.  Jews who are citizens of any polity remain Jews.  Jews living in the USA, for example, are not Gentiles.

The LDS D&C recognizes the descent of members of Jewish priesthood (of the lineage of Aaron), thus obviously rejecting the notion that they are Gentiles.  Indeed, DNA shows that they are a distinct group for over 3 thousand years now.  https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-oldest-organization-of-the-world/answer/Bob-Smith-3106  .

Yes, it seems clear that non-Israel covenant people can be Gentiles too (the patriarchs before Jacob, and others in established communities such as Zion and Salem).

Yes, they two tribes undoubtedly intermingled to some extent in Zarahemla, and eventually with "others" but I’m not seeing Mulekite records included in the Book of Mormon., and instead various passages emphasize the record / writings as those of the descendants of Joseph.

Yes, Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen, and played both cards as he needed to in his day and circumstances. The Book of Mormon coming forth from the Gentiles has to do with a particular place, time and circumstance also: a Gentile nation in 1830, rendering Joseph Smith (and his contemporaries if they are to be included) – whatever his DNA or later revelations and covenants – the Gentile who brought forth the Book of Mormon (even though he too was a descendant of Joseph and shared his name). The Book of Mormon allows Joseph Smith to play both cards, too!

This takes nothing away from the Aaronic priesthood / bishopric being called a “Jewish priesthood”, though that might be a misnomer (Jewish-as-Judah is a separate tribe); it operated within the nations/governments and under the authority of the kings of ancient Israel and Judah (which of these are Jewish?); it is certainly a priesthood of the House of Israel and is extended to Gentiles who join the House. In any case, the designating Presidency of an Aaronic bishop is not necessarily made up of Jews (D&C 68:20). Is a Jew who does not know he is a Jew still a Jew, or even if he does know, still a Gentile? Yes and no; depends.

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