Hoffer, Exclusivity and a Luther Quote Worthy of Ahab!

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

I can see where you feel we are exclusive and I think I agree.

However, that would mean every Christian church (and many non Christian churches) are also exclusive.  I'm ok with that, but you seem to think we are the only, or one of the few that are exclusive.  

 

Thanks for your reply. I am just not certain how you arrive at the conclusion that "every Christian church is also exclusive? I don't understand that. If LDS Christians are taught in their institute, seminary, or somewhere else that other Christian churches believe they individually have the only way to salvation or eternal life, then that is incorrect. I began preaching in churches when I was 17 years old. I have preached in churches representing scores of non-LDS Christian denominations. I know of no denomination or group that restricts the means of salvation, sanctification, or exaltation to themselves.

Certainly, folks enjoy, are comfortable in and may even feel their collective expression of Christianity is the "best" one. I would never deny that. But "best" is a long hike from "only." I have been the invited speaker at Catholic marriage retreats. I have never heard a Catholic say to me that only those who somewhere at some time accept Catholicism as the true Church of Christ will be afforded all the blessings of heaven. From my knowledge of Mexican religious history, Catholics certainly believed that at one time. But not in my lifetime or experience. I enjoyed visiting for a while at an Arabic speaking Orthodox church in San Diego. The old priest there enjoyed telling me they were the original, the most authentic representation of the Christian church on earth. But he never suggested that as a Mennonite believer I had no opportunity for eternal blessings without becoming Orthodox. He really didn't seem, however to appreciate the Greek Orthodox folks down the road. Ha! I always thought that had something to do with some kind of an Orthodox family feud.

I even pastored for years in a church that was completely non-denominational. We had no affiliation to any larger Christian organization. I really enjoyed that place. It it helps too, no one that I can remember has ever asked me to what denomination I belonged before I was asked to speak in their church, regardless of what denomination it was. No one has ever asked me if or where I was baptized or ordained. To get a discount in tuition at a Baptist seminary, I once had to provide my ordination certificate. I guess that was a kind of exclusivity, but certainly not one with eternal consequences. I once spoke in a rather liberal Presbyterian church in Kalamazoo, Michigan. That was the only church I have ever spoken in where they allowed the folks to smoke in the sanctuary during the Sunday service. That set me back a bit! Again, I go on too long. Thanks so much and blessings on you. You have always been very kind and patient with me. I appreciate that more than you know.

[Navidad]

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think he's just bothered because he thinks you don't understand what he thinks he has already explained clearly enough so that what he has said should be clearly understood.  For example, my understanding of what he means when he says our faith or religion is NOT exclusive is that our faith and religion includes the idea that everyone can be and WILL BE taught our precepts clearly enough so that everyone WILL UNDERSTAND what God will require of them to qualify for EVERY blessing God is able to bestow upon his children.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS CHILDREN WILL EVENTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS REQUIRED AND HOW THEY CAN QUALIFY.  So there will be no exclusive offers since EVERYONE will be able to qualify if they want to.  Which means the only ones who will NOT get ALL of the prizes and/or rewards that are available will be those who weren't willing to qualify for them.  

Thanks Ahab. I appreciate your kindness. I am intrigued by your use of the term "qualify." You use it a number of times. That is hard for me to understand. I have had to "qualify" in my life several times to belong to certain professional organizations. I once was asked during an interview with a school board, "Why I thought I was qualified to be the deputy superintendent of one of America's largest school districts." I replied that I had coached middle school baseball and that after surviving that, I was qualified for anything life could throw at me!  I got the job!

On the other hand, my understanding of the gospel is that none of us ever qualify, merit, or are worthy of the gift of eternal life with all its concomitant blessings. It is God's gift to us. I think I know that is a form of heresy or blasphemy in the LDS world where so very much is dependent on being worthy, being faithful, keeping your covenants, etc. So yes, I am confused, even more so now that three years ago! I don't think that is the way it is supposed to work! My wife will bear testimony of the same confusion. There is great breadth to LDS orthopraxy. I am not 100% sure there even is such a thing as LDS orthodoxy. Oh well. Thanks again for being kind and patient with me. I appreciate it so much. Oh, and I was complimenting you by including you in the title of this thread. I thought Luther's quote was quite eloquent!

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your reply. I am just not certain how you arrive at the conclusion that "every Christian church is also exclusive? I don't understand that. If LDS Christians are taught in their institute, seminary, or somewhere else that other Christian churches believe they individually have the only way to salvation or eternal life, then that is incorrect. I began preaching in churches when I was 17 years old. I have preached in churches representing scores of non-LDS Christian denominations. I know of no denomination or group that restricts the means of salvation, sanctification, or exaltation to themselves.

Certainly, folks enjoy, are comfortable in and may even feel their collective expression of Christianity is the "best" one. I would never deny that. But "best" is a long hike from "only." I have been the invited speaker at Catholic marriage retreats. I have never heard a Catholic say to me that only those who somewhere at some time accept Catholicism as the true Church of Christ will be afforded all the blessings of heaven. From my knowledge of Mexican religious history, Catholics certainly believed that at one time. But not in my lifetime or experience. I enjoyed visiting for a while at an Arabic speaking Orthodox church in San Diego. The old priest there enjoyed telling me they were the original, the most authentic representation of the Christian church on earth. But he never suggested that as a Mennonite believer I had no opportunity for eternal blessings without becoming Orthodox. He really didn't seem, however to appreciate the Greek Orthodox folks down the road. Ha! I always thought that had something to do with some kind of an Orthodox family feud.

I even pastored for years in a church that was completely non-denominational. We had no affiliation to any larger Christian organization. I really enjoyed that place. It it helps too, no one that I can remember has ever asked me to what denomination I belonged before I was asked to speak in their church, regardless of what denomination it was. No one has ever asked me if or where I was baptized or ordained. To get a discount in tuition at a Baptist seminary, I once had to provide my ordination certificate. I guess that was a kind of exclusivity, but certainly not one with eternal consequences. I once spoke in a rather liberal Presbyterian church in Kalamazoo, Michigan. That was the only church I have ever spoken in where they allowed the folks to smoke in the sanctuary during the Sunday service. That set me back a bit! Again, I go on too long. Thanks so much and blessings on you. You have always been very kind and patient with me. I appreciate that more than you know.

I think I have a fairly good grasp now on what you mean by saying you think we are exclusive.  And perhaps also what some other people mean when they say that.  I think you are referring to our priesthood authority, which we claim and testify is given to us by God and his authorized representatives. Let me try now to get at the heart of what we are talking about when we say that.  That only our priesthood authority is valid because it is the same as God's priesthood authority.  And at the heart of that idea is the idea that only God's priesthood authority is valid. Are you getting a better idea of what we mean now?  Men may claim to have God's priesthood authority, and testify that they have it, but when they really don't have it then they really don't have it even if they claim and testify that they do. Because only true priesthood authority from God is valid.  And we know of many people in many other churches who claim and testify that they have true priesthood authority from God, when in truth we know they really don't have it.  And the way we know they don't have it is by knowing how all of this works.  We know how to get it, and how it is got, so we can spot the fakers even if they sincerely believe they really have it.  I hope you now understand what we mean when we say what we say, but if it isn't as clear as a bell to you yet, as of this moment, just let us know and we'll do what we can to make all of this crystal clear for you.

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your reply. I am just not certain how you arrive at the conclusion that "every Christian church is also exclusive? I don't understand that. If LDS Christians are taught in their institute, seminary, or somewhere else that other Christian churches believe they individually have the only way to salvation or eternal life, then that is incorrect. I began preaching in churches when I was 17 years old. I have preached in churches representing scores of non-LDS Christian denominations. I know of no denomination or group that restricts the means of salvation, sanctification, or exaltation to themselves.

Certainly, folks enjoy, are comfortable in and may even feel their collective expression of Christianity is the "best" one. I would never deny that. But "best" is a long hike from "only." I have been the invited speaker at Catholic marriage retreats. I have never heard a Catholic say to me that only those who somewhere at some time accept Catholicism as the true Church of Christ will be afforded all the blessings of heaven. From my knowledge of Mexican religious history, Catholics certainly believed that at one time. But not in my lifetime or experience. I enjoyed visiting for a while at an Arabic speaking Orthodox church in San Diego. The old priest there enjoyed telling me they were the original, the most authentic representation of the Christian church on earth. But he never suggested that as a Mennonite believer I had no opportunity for eternal blessings without becoming Orthodox. He really didn't seem, however to appreciate the Greek Orthodox folks down the road. Ha! I always thought that had something to do with some kind of an Orthodox family feud.

I even pastored for years in a church that was completely non-denominational. We had no affiliation to any larger Christian organization. I really enjoyed that place. It it helps too, no one that I can remember has ever asked me to what denomination I belonged before I was asked to speak in their church, regardless of what denomination it was. No one has ever asked me if or where I was baptized or ordained. To get a discount in tuition at a Baptist seminary, I once had to provide my ordination certificate. I guess that was a kind of exclusivity, but certainly not one with eternal consequences. I once spoke in a rather liberal Presbyterian church in Kalamazoo, Michigan. That was the only church I have ever spoken in where they allowed the folks to smoke in the sanctuary during the Sunday service. That set me back a bit! Again, I go on too long. Thanks so much and blessings on you. You have always been very kind and patient with me. I appreciate that more than you know.

Most Christian churches believe that you cannot get to God except through Christ.  That would make them exclusive in the way you describe things with Walmart etc.  

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks Ahab. I appreciate your kindness. I am intrigued by your use of the term "qualify." You use it a number of times. That is hard for me to understand. I have had to "qualify" in my life several times to belong to certain professional organizations. I once was asked during an interview with a school board, "Why I thought I was qualified to be the deputy superintendent of one of America's largest school districts." I replied that I had coached middle school baseball and that after surviving that, I was qualified for anything life could throw at me!  I got the job!

On the other hand, my understanding of the gospel is that none of us ever qualify, merit, or are worthy of the gift of eternal life with all its concomitant blessings. It is God's gift to us. I think I know that is a form of heresy or blasphemy in the LDS world where so very much is dependent on being worthy, being faithful, keeping your covenants, etc. So yes, I am confused, even more so now that three years ago! I don't think that is the way it is supposed to work! My wife will bear testimony of the same confusion. There is great breadth to LDS orthopraxy. I am not 100% sure there even is such a thing as LDS orthodoxy. Oh well. Thanks again for being kind and patient with me. I appreciate it so much. Oh, and I was complimenting you by including you in the title of this thread. I thought Luther's quote was quite eloquent!

By qualify I simply mean doing whatever it takes to receive blessings from God.  Sometimes he gives blessings out willy nilly, not being particular at all about who gets them, like for example how he provides a weather system that at times showers rain upon the just as well as the unjust, but at other times he actually requires people to do something in particular, and he will withhold a particular blessing until someone actually does what he requires before bestowing that blessing.  And anyone can qualify for that blessing as long as they do what he requires before he bestows that blessing. Baptism, or example, by someone who has God's priesthood authority to baptize, is required before God will accept someone as a member of his Church, and only those who are properly baptized qualify for that blessing... a blessing that has many perks simply by virtue of being a member of his Church.  For more details, visit with a member near your location. 

[Navidad]

20 minutes ago, Rain said:

Most Christian churches believe that you cannot get to God except through Christ.  That would make them exclusive in the way you describe things with Walmart etc.  

There are at least four different perspectives within non-LDS Christianity as to who can or will "get to God" as you say. You made a very important distinction. You said "through Christ." I think you are right that the vast majority of Christian churches believe that one cannot get to God except through Christ. We do believe that Christ is the final judge or arbiter of eternal life in heaven. We also believe that He, for the most part makes that decision based on an individual person's faith. Throughout Christ's earthly ministry he confirmed that someone's "faith had made them whole." That faith varies greatly due to the light someone has received and responded to in their individual life. Therefore the decision about entry into eternal life with Christ and Heavenly Father is up to Christ in his responsibility to balance mercy and justice. So yes no one can get to God except through Christ. But many if not most of us as non-LDS Christians also believe there is a wideness in God's mercy. I remember singing a hymn by that name. Here are some of the words:

There's a wideness in God's mercy
like the wideness of the sea;
there's a kindness in his justice,
which is more than liberty.
There is welcome for the sinner,
and more graces for the good;
there is mercy with the Savior;
there is healing in his blood.

There is no place where earth's sorrows
are more felt than in heaven;
there is no place where earth's failings
have such kind judgment given.
There is plentiful redemption
in the blood that has been shed;
there is joy for all the members
in the sorrows of the Head.

For the love of God is broader
than the measure of man's mind;
and the heart of the Eternal
is most wonderfully kind.
If our love were but more faithful,
we should take him at his word;
and our life would be thanksgiving
for the goodness of the Lord.

So yes, we teach that one comes to God through Christ as you say. Christ will make that decision. For all those who have never heard, for all those who have lived without a message of the gospel, for those who have apparently accepted (to the human mind) the gospel, only Christ knows for sure, to all those who lived before Christ, he will determine their eternal destiny based on their faith and light. Logic dictates that in our human minds we come to the conclusion that not all who knock on the gate will be granted access. But how many and who is way over our pay grade. I have also always been taught that there will be no denominations in heaven - no divided tribes of Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptists, or Mormons, etc. In heaven for the first time the church will gather as one - the community of Christ in its unified sense, regardless of affiliation in this life. I think there will be a host of folks who experienced a widely divergent lifestyle that includes many of varying or no particular faith group. Of course we can't be much more specific about anything that is beyond the veil. We see through a glass darkly, therefore we must acknowledge that our vision is limited. I think the glass is less dark for the faithful LDS church member who believes he or she has been given more light than the rest of us. I think there may be both blessings and dangers in that. Take care and again , thanks for your kindness.

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

I said this in my last post, but perhaps it bears repeating. Probably not, but here goes. I am not asking about salvation, I think I understand that part. You are close to being universalists when it comes to salvation. All of my questions are about eternal life with the Father and Son - the exaltation part. I don't know if exaltation is a part of the plan of salvation; or is the something beyond salvation. So I ask about stuff related to exaltation. And I separately ask about the only true and living part of the curriculum vitae of the LDS church. Those are my two areas of interest. I haven't asked about salvation in a long time.

IT INCLUDES EXALTATION.

"The immortality AND ETERNAL LIFE OF MAN"

The Plan of Salvation is the WHOLE THING. That is why most LDS people confuse one with the other or use the terms interchangeably and end up confusing you.

The mere fact that you are confused proves the point.

To us it's all one thing.

The plate of spaghetti includes the meatballs too. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

IT INCLUDES EXALTATION.

"The immortality AND ETERNAL LIFE OF MAN"

The Plan of Salvation is the WHOLE THING

More words, please.  Or must I be the only one to try to go into more details on topics like this?  Good grief.

[Ahab]

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

I said this in my last post, but perhaps it bears repeating. Probably not, but here goes. I am not asking about salvation, I think I understand that part. You are close to being universalists when it comes to salvation. All of my questions are about eternal life with the Father and Son - the exaltation part. I don't know if exaltation is a part of the plan of salvation; or is the something beyond salvation. So I ask about stuff related to exaltation. And I separately ask about the only true and living part of the curriculum vitae of the LDS church. Those are my two areas of interest. I haven't asked about salvation in a long time.

When thinking of this topic I think it helps to go back to Adam and Eve.  They fell, so we are all fallen now when we are born on this planet as their descendants.  So the "fall" is what we are talking about being saved from.  So now let's take a look at how far we will advance ahead of where we are now once we have been saved from the effects of the fall.  Will we then be as perfect as our Father in heaven, once we have been saved from that fall? No, we will still have a long way to go then if we have been saved only from the effects of the fall.  We will still have a lot more to learn to become as perfect as our Father in heaven, even if we can begin to learn now about some of the things that will involve while we are still here on this planet. How to create a planet, for example. Do you know how to do that right now, or do you think being saved from the fall will fill you with that measure of knowledge?  Or what about space travel?  How will you get around up there in yonder heavens?  And how will you get to a good space where you can create a good planet?  And what about children up there?  How will you get some of those to put on a planet you might learn how to create in the heaven?  Study up, bro.  Learn what you can while you are here but expect to keep learning even after you have overcome the effects of the fall.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Mark: I would appreciate it if you would care to - If you would respond to my response that the system says was posted 17 hours ago. It is now 11:03am on the tenth mountain time. My post begins with "OK, I apologize, I guess." The last paragraph is what is especially important for me, and is the gist of my confusion and concern.  Perhaps we can "get somewhere" then. Please , please, please accept that I am trying my very best to understand. It is incredibly hard.

People have different levels of understanding and we really do not have any doctrinal code. The entire Faith was based on the idea of personal revelation after reading the scriptures. We have no magisterium.

I would love to respond but have no idea of what post you are talking about.

You could cut and paste it to a new post please.

Or

Go to the post

On the top right you will see an icon like this:  <  but with three circles added at the ends of the lines.

Click that.

That will give you a link to that individual post to cut and paste.

But the easiest way is just to make a new post pasting within that post the content from the old post.

Remember we do not have any written Doctrine or magisterium to Define doctrine.

Joseph opposed doctrinal codes and did not want his people to be constrained by written Doctrine.

Every person has his own Doctrine as he interprets the scriptures for himself.

Our leaders even are not doctrinal experts because we have no Doctrine.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

26 minutes ago, Ahab said:

More words, please.  Or must I be the only one to try to go into more details on topics like this?  Good grief.

What you have never understood is that you are not the definer of Doctrine.

You are one person with your own interpretations of scripture.

Sorry but I think we understand each other that we can speak to each other frankly

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

IT INCLUDES EXALTATION.

"The immortality AND ETERNAL LIFE OF MAN"

The Plan of Salvation is the WHOLE THING. That is why most LDS people confuse one with the other or use the terms interchangeably and end up confusing you.

The mere fact that you are confused proves the point.

To us it's all one thing.

The plate of spaghetti includes the meatballs too. 

 

 

Just in case Mark's comment above isn't clear, (I haven't read all the posts), "eternal life" means "exaltation" in Mormonspeak.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/eternal-life?lang=eng

Quote

Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives. The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence and to continue as families (see Doctrine and Covenants 131:1–4).

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Mark: I would appreciate it if you would care to - If you would respond to my response that the system says was posted 17 hours ago. It is now 11:03am on the tenth mountain time. My post begins with "OK, I apologize, I guess." The last paragraph is what is especially important for me, and is the gist of my confusion and concern.  Perhaps we can "get somewhere" then. Please , please, please accept that I am trying my very best to understand. It is incredibly hard.

I read every post here - several times over. One of you says "of course we are exclusive," one of you says, " to say we are exclusive is absurd." Some say all the blessings of eternity are or will be available to me. When I listen in the ward it is very clear to me that all the blessings of eternity are not going to even be a reality for most members of the Church (LDS church).  Just this morning, I received a WhatsApp message from a dear LDS friend who I respect so much who assured me that he doesn't believe that the LDS way is the only way to eternal blessings. He clearly believes the LDS church is not the only conduit to eternal blessings and glory. He makes it very clear that it is the way he has chosen. It is the only way he has ever known since being a child. But it is not the only (exclusive) way.

It seems that all of you are implying that a non-LDS member Christian who dies will after death receive the opportunity from an LDS missionary to accept the LDS way, ordinances, etc. because the LDS way, ordinances, etc. are collectively the one and only conduit, process, manner, method that God Himself has set up for His plan for eternal blessings for all humanity. It (the LDS faith or message, or pipeline) is the only conduit for eternal blessings, in this life or the next. It is God's way God has chosen and ordained - it is God's only way. God has ordained, not me and lot of other folks in the world to share His gospel, but He has only ordained members of the LDS Church to be the vehicle, conduit, method of all the blessings He has for us in eternity. Is that correct, or am I missing something? If I am correct, then the LDS Church is indeed God's exclusive manner to provide salvation and exaltation to the world of lost sinners. My friend's post, however kind, then is wrong! Right? For three years now I have been trying to grasp that so I can come to peace about it. If I don't think I understand it correctly, I cannot come to peace. How could I? Does that not make sense? Who speaks the doctrine of the LDS church accurately when so many fine members have so many differing perspectives on what the Church teaches?

I don't want to read or hear anyone else's view but your (the collective forum) own, as diverse members of the church. Oh, my goodness it is hard! I hope you can understand that and at least respect in some small degree my perseverance in trying to understand. It is so discouraging when you and others make fun of me. I simply guess I am an easy target. So be it I guess. I am not the enemy. I am really trying and will continue to try whether or not you all reject me, or not.

We are not making fun of you. You are our sweet younger brother at the dining room table who does not quite understand how things work yet.

Read this. This is the official Church standpoint on Doctrine.

What is says in plain English is that we ain't got none.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

On the top right you will see an icon like this:  <  but with three circles added at the ends of the lines.

Click that.

That will give you a link to that individual post to cut and paste.

But the easiest way is just to make a new post pasting within that post the content from the old post.

Remember we do not have any written Doctrine or magisterium to Define doctrine.

 

He means this one:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73161-hoffer-exclusivity-and-a-luther-quote-worthy-of-ahab/?do=findComment&comment=1209991583

 

[mfbukowski]

Just now, Calm said:

He means this one:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73161-hoffer-exclusivity-and-a-luther-quote-worthy-of-ahab/?do=findComment&comment=1209991583

 

Thanks

No time now have to get to work. I'll be back later thanks Calm.

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What you have never understood is that you are not the definer of Doctrine.

I know that and I have never thought of myself as "the" definer of doctrine.  I am simply someone who has shared and will continue to share what God has taught me, personally... about doctrine, or things he has taught his prophets and other people, about all kinds of things.

Quote

You are one person with your own interpretations of scripture.

My very own and nobody else's?  No, not really.  I think it's interesting that what I think is also what many other people think, and that all thoughts fall into 1 of 2 camps... either true or not true.  And we each get to choose what we think and who to learn from!

Quote

Sorry but I think we understand each other that we can speak to each other frankly

Sure, feel free to share whatever you think with me and I will give your thoughts some thought.  Just don't expect me to automatically assume that whatever you think is what God has inspired you to think and I think we will get along fine.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Ahab

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

You said "through Christ." I think you are right that the vast majority of Christian churches believe that one cannot get to God except through Christ. We do believe that Christ is the final judge or arbiter of eternal life in heaven. We also believe that He, for the most part makes that decision based on an individual person's faith. Throughout Christ's earthly ministry he confirmed that someone's "faith had made them whole." That faith varies greatly due to the light someone has received and responded to in their individual life. Therefore the decision about entry into eternal life with Christ and Heavenly Father is up to Christ in his responsibility to balance mercy and justice. So yes no one can get to God except through Christ. But many if not most of us as non-LDS Christians also believe there is a wideness in God's mercy.

I'm not entirely clear how this differs from what we believe.  In fact, the underlined part sound distinctly Latter-day Saint (the light of Christ).  Those who receive and respond to that light are exalted.  Those who don't are not.  No difference whatsoever.  We also believe it is Christ's responsibility to balance mercy and justice (he does so perfectly).

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

So yes, we teach that one comes to God through Christ as you say. Christ will make that decision. For all those who have never heard, for all those who have lived without a message of the gospel, for those who have apparently accepted (to the human mind) the gospel, only Christ knows for sure, to all those who lived before Christ, he will determine their eternal destiny based on their faith and light. Logic dictates that in our human minds we come to the conclusion that not all who knock on the gate will be granted access. But how many and who is way over our pay grade. I have also always been taught that there will be no denominations in heaven - no divided tribes of Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptists, or Mormons, etc. In heaven for the first time the church will gather as one - the community of Christ in its unified sense, regardless of affiliation in this life. I think there will be a host of folks who experienced a widely divergent lifestyle that includes many of varying or no particular faith group. Of course we can't be much more specific about anything that is beyond the veil. We see through a glass darkly, therefore we must acknowledge that our vision is limited. I think the glass is less dark for the faithful LDS church member who believes he or she has been given more light than the rest of us. I think there may be both blessings and dangers in that. Take care and again , thanks for your kindness.

This also aligns perfectly with Latter-day Saint belief.  No denominations.  No Mormons, Baptists, etc.  All will be united as members of the Church of the Firstborn.  All will have come from divergent backgrounds  and lifestyles.   There is literally nothing here that differs from what we teach and believe. 

[Ahab]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm not entirely clear how this differs from what we believe.  In fact, the underlined part sound distinctly Latter-day Saint (the light of Christ).  Those who receive and respond to that light are exalted.  Those who don't are not.  No difference whatsoever.  We also believe it is Christ's responsibility to balance mercy and justice (he does so perfectly).

This also aligns perfectly with Latter-day Saint belief.  No denominations.  No Mormons, Baptists, etc.  All will be united as members of the Church of the Firstborn.  All will have come from divergent backgrounds  and lifestyles.   There is literally nothing here that differs from what we teach and believe. 

Wonderful!  I like it when I can see that we agree on something.

[Navidad]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

He means this one:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73161-hoffer-exclusivity-and-a-luther-quote-worthy-of-ahab/?do=findComment&comment=1209991583

 

Thanks so much Calm - that is the one. Now I know some more of the magic of the forum! best, Phil

[Meadowchik]

If you are pondering universality and exclusivity of LDS beliefs, I invite you to consider a funeral at an LDS chapel.

How are the deceased of different beliefs, LDS and non-LDS, treated?

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If you are pondering universality and exclusivity of LDS beliefs, I invite you to consider a funeral at an LDS chapel.

How are the deceased of different beliefs, LDS and non-LDS, treated?

Embalmed and buried 6 feet under the ground, usually, unless someone has specifically asked that the body be cremated, or unless the body can't be found to do something with it.  Did you have something else in mind?

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If you are pondering universality and exclusivity of LDS beliefs, I invite you to consider a funeral at an LDS chapel.

How are the deceased of different beliefs, LDS and non-LDS, treated?

I have attended both.  I can say that the difference was mostly cultural.  The LDS funerals were much more uplifting and pleasant.  I attended a Catholic funeral in the Philippines - talk about weeping and wailing!  It seems that the louder you mourn, the more you love the person who is deceased.  It is just a cultural thing, but I found it very unpleasant and overly dramatic for my cultural sensibilities.  The event lasts 3 days.   I have also attended a funeral for someone who would be considered inactive and potentially apostate in an LDS chapel.  It was equally uplifting, hopeful, and pleasant.   What are you getting at exactly?

Edited September 10, 2020 by pogi

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks so much Calm - that is the one. Now I know some more of the magic of the forum! best, Phil

Yeah that text that says Quote at the bottom left corner of a post is a mystery, isn't it.  It doesn't have a description near it that says what clicking on it will do.  It just sits there, saying Quote.  I had to actually click on it before I found out what it is for.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

We are not making fun of you. You are our sweet younger brother at the dining room table who does not quite understand how things work yet.

No, no, no.  He is really old.  I think I remember him saying he is like 80 years old, in Earth years. So it's actually more correct to imagine him as a really really old guy sitting at a table, rather than as a younger brother.  He's probably one of the oldest people who posts here.

I mean really, really old.

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Read this. This is the official Church standpoint on Doctrine.

What is says in plain English is that we ain't got none.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

Nice.  Yes, they do a pretty good job of describing what doctrine is and how we should approach understanding our doctrine.

[mfbukowski]

On 9/9/2020 at 8:26 AM, Kevin Christensen said:

I read The True Believer back when I lived in California, around thirty years ago.  Very much worth reading.  

However, the formal truth claims of the LDS faith represent something quite different.  That is not to say that some LDS operate that way (consider the infamous 1945 Home Teaching Message), but the distinction between formal truth claims, and the proclivities of some overzealous and under informed members is extremely important.

Take for instance, President Smith's response to the 1945 Home Teaching Message.

https://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/dialogue-thinking.php

I've countless times pointed out that the formal statement of the "authority of my servants" in D&C 1 does not include the phrase "the one and only truth"  but expressly declares LDS fallibility and that revelation and truth and virtue is non-exclusive.  

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/sophic-box-and-mantic-vista-a-review-of-deconstructing-mormonism/

As far as individual tendencies and personal development goes, I think it important to consider the Myers-Briggs types, and the different attitudes about traditional authority and office in ESTJ and INTJ and INTP types.  (I am INFP).  And I think it is important to consider the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth, and the difference between a person at Position 2 and at Position 9.  I made the case in Sophic Box and Mantic Vista that Joseph Smith, by precept and example, tries to lead us to Position 9.

Everyone has to start somewhere.  But starting points do not have to become ending points.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

This is it

Thanks. Hear ye, hear ye! This post has The Bukowski Magesterium nihil obstat and Imprimatur.

Please all, especially @Navidad read it carefully.

Thus saith the Bukowski.