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Is the battle between ' Good ' and 'Evil ' and eternal one, that is , never-ending, has always existed, will always exist ? Or is it created as needed for  each creation? We are told Satan will eventually be bound but is that permanent or temporary ? Then again we are told that " there needs be opposition in all things " /

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36 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Is the battle between ' Good ' and 'Evil ' and eternal one, that is , never-ending, has always existed, will always exist ? Or is it created as needed for  each creation? We are told Satan will eventually be bound but is that permanent or temporary ? Then again we are told that " there needs be opposition in all things " /

One cannot define "good" without the concept/word/idea of "not good" or what is called "evil".

It's a language and logic thing.  We get to define which is which.

Don't let a simple semantic problem get all confused by reifying them as entities 

Same as justice and mercy, and lots of others

Edited by mfbukowski
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I don't really use the word/idea of evil in my worldview.  I often say: WE are the gods and we are the devils. There are no others.

As eternal beings taking an eternal journey (through time, space, and and and) we will continue to wrestle with those themes we find compelling and that, ultimately, lead us to complete love and freedom. So as long as WE ARE, then our questions and answers, lived out in real time, will continue to BE. The 'crucifixion' is an eternal principle (crucifixion = entry into mortal worlds/bodies).

Thankfully, the resurrection is also an eternal principle. The ground of eternity is freedom and love, and we are going nowhere from it, and it is not going anywhere from us. It's always there and we can always access it, if we will (and understand how). We may always return to that ground--you don't have to wait for some afterlife.

Eternity has been so long (and has no time, anyway) that there isn't a God that would have forgotten to defeat an evil kingpin, or had trouble doing so, by now. Thinking so says that we think the evil kingpin essentially has the same level of power as the Good (God, Father, Mother) and that it's a close battle. In my opinion, it's ludicrous to think so (applying that to myself and not to anyone else who finds that paradigm appropriate for their worldview).

The question is not what is ultimately in the universe, but the question is who we each are. The universe is the question and we give the answer. Unfortunately, we do have beings in time, at least, who give the answer (perhaps from fear, pain, ignorance, hubris, etc) that THEY are the evil kingpin or one of his minions, as that matches their (current) desires. The universe allows that answer, because we each must choose freely the nature of our agency. We will receive the fruit of our own answer. A higher God could/would no more take away from you the evil you want and are fond of, than he could or would take away the love and freedom (etc peace, integrity, etc) that is your birthright and destiny.

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2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Is the battle between ' Good ' and 'Evil ' and eternal one, that is , never-ending, has always existed, will always exist ? Or is it created as needed for  each creation? We are told Satan will eventually be bound but is that permanent or temporary ? Then again we are told that " there needs be opposition in all things " /

I would say that the battle between good and evil is almost entirely a Personal one And not eternal. Once the war is won/lost in ourselves, that is when the “war” ends. Once we have conquered the enemy within us, we can then work on the Kay’s part of Luke 22:32 and strengthen our brethren in their own battles With evil.

Edited by Fether
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2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Is the battle between ' Good ' and 'Evil ' and eternal one, that is , never-ending, has always existed, will always exist ? Or is it created as needed for  each creation? We are told Satan will eventually be bound but is that permanent or temporary ? Then again we are told that " there needs be opposition in all things " /

There must always be opposition.  Otherwise God could not exist as God (2 Ne 2:11,13).  There must always be a Satan, which is merely a title, not a name.

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22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There must always be opposition.  Otherwise God could not exist as God (2 Ne 2:11,13).  There must always be a Satan, which is merely a title, not a name.

Does there have to be a disembodied tempter to do evil? I would argue no.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There must always be opposition.  Otherwise God could not exist as God (2 Ne 2:11,13).  There must always be a Satan, which is merely a title, not a name.

There will be a time when Satan will be thrown  down to eternal punishment and bound forever to raise no more (Rev. 20:10). But before that, there was a time where Satan did not exist. The essence of God and His attributes are not altered by the presence or absence of evil. In our human experience it is true that there is opposition in all things,  as Satan tries to constantly influence  human events in opposition to God's plan for us.

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Does anyone here really believe they are tempted to do evil by Satan or one of him minions?  What is that like and can you share how you know it was not just your own desire to do something you probably shouldn't do.  Was it a one time thing or is it constant?

 

I personally have never felt that kind of experience.  Sure there have been countless times when had a choice to make, but never felt a demonic influence in making that choice.  

 

 

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Good and evil are eternal principles but they may not be made evident at certain times. Just like polygamy is an eternal principle but we are not commanded to live it right now.
Satan will be bound during the Millennium, but He and his angels will still exist and evil will still exist, but we will not experience it during the Millennium.
However, during this time, people will still have their agency and may choose to do wrong things on their own.

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Does anyone here really believe they are tempted to do evil by Satan or one of him minions?  What is that like and can you share how you know it was not just your own desire to do something you probably shouldn't do.  Was it a one time thing or is it constant?

 

I personally have never felt that kind of experience.  Sure there have been countless times when had a choice to make, but never felt a demonic influence in making that choice.  

If it is true that the light of Christ/Holy Ghost/angels and devils have been enticing us both ways since at least the age of 8 it follows that it is so normal we probably rarely notice it. Some have weakened the tempters to the point that they rarely hear them and some have ignored the voices of good so long that they are almost silent.

Basically I am saying we need a control group but I doubt we will have one before the Millenium.

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6 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Is the battle between ' Good ' and 'Evil ' and eternal one, that is , never-ending, has always existed, will always exist ? Or is it created as needed for  each creation? We are told Satan will eventually be bound but is that permanent or temporary ? Then again we are told that " there needs be opposition in all things " /

I think it is an eternal battle, not matter how "un-evil" or "un-good" the evil and good are, respectively (or the good and evil evil are, respectively, for that matter).

Does God battle evil in His own kingdom? Inasmuch as there are intelligences that do not want to progress according to plan, yes.

Would God cease to be God without this battle? Yes, because all intelligences progressing abnegates the true nature and character of agency (and its development) that are necessary for that plan.

Would God cease to be God under an alternative plan that abnegates the true nature and character of agency? Of course!

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

Does anyone here really believe they are tempted to do evil by Satan or one of him minions?  What is that like and can you share how you know it was not just your own desire to do something you probably shouldn't do.  Was it a one time thing or is it constant?

 

I personally have never felt that kind of experience.  Sure there have been countless times when had a choice to make, but never felt a demonic influence in making that choice.  

I don't really think of it precisely in that way. For instance, I don't think that each wrong choice, poor choice, or sin is the direct result of some demon tempting us. They may reveal our own passions to us and tempt us with how to feed those passions, but after that it is all by our choice. 

However, I believe strongly that evil exists in certain types of beings. Their efforts are directed to the downfall of God's children. I have experienced a specific type of presence that I interpreted as pure evil during my lifetime. I was not looking for it and the very few times I encountered such a thing was interacting with others. 

I think it is pure folly to think that evil does not exist and that it is a figment of human imagination. Satan, Lucifer, or evil exists outside of ourselves as entities. 

As God continues his creative work, which never ends, there will always be the existence of evil. Lucifer, the fallen angel will be chained, but he only fulfills this role in our universe.

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3 hours ago, Islander said:

................... there was a time where Satan did not exist. The essence of God and His attributes are not altered by the presence or absence of evil. In our human experience it is true that there is opposition in all things,  as Satan tries to constantly influence  human events in opposition to God's plan for us.

Wrong.  Evil has always existed and always will, otherwise God could not be God (2 Ne 2:13).

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

Does anyone here really believe they are tempted to do evil by Satan or one of him minions?  What is that like and can you share how you know it was not just your own desire to do something you probably shouldn't do.  Was it a one time thing or is it constant?

I personally have never felt that kind of experience.  Sure there have been countless times when had a choice to make, but never felt a demonic influence in making that choice. 

Evil exists apart from Satan, and any person can choose evil or good.  Everyone has free agency.

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Does there have to be a disembodied tempter to do evil? I would argue no.

Correct.  Satan has a spirit body and is fully capable of evil, as we all are.  On our own.  Satan is merely one of us, if primus inter pares.

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10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Wrong.  Evil has always existed and always will, otherwise God could not be God (2 Ne 2:13).

In an earlier post Mark Bukowski said:

Quote

Don't let a simple semantic problem get all confused by reifying them as entities 

I do not see evil (nor good, justice, and mercy) as entities but rather as concepts. My understanding is that evil does not exist but is an attribute of types of thoughts and actions. The ability to think and do evil had always existed, as in moral agency. Again, this is my understanding.

Glenn

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23 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

In an earlier post Mark Bukowski said:

I do not see evil (nor good, justice, and mercy) as entities but rather as concepts. My understanding is that evil does not exist but is an attribute of types of thoughts and actions. The ability to think and do evil had always existed, as in moral agency. Again, this is my understanding.

Glenn

Lehi's Law of Opposition makes it clear that evil exists.  Whether one wishes to define it as an entity or concept, or a social construction, takes us into some very abstruse areas of inquiry.

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3 hours ago, california boy said:

Does anyone here really believe they are tempted to do evil by Satan or one of him minions?  What is that like and can you share how you know it was not just your own desire to do something you probably shouldn't do.  Was it a one time thing or is it constant?

Not constant, no. But, when you say "your own desire" that is usually working towards evil, since evil is a selfish thing. That is what evil spirits work to manipulate - your selfish "me" feelings. So to you it seems to be your choice, but you are unaware that evil spirits are influencing you to make it. So, examples are people who "choose" to start watching pornography or worse. As they choose to meet their selfish desires, they become more and more subject to the power of Satan. Some people call it an addiction since they have lost their own power of choice. Have I felt evil influence? Yes, definitely. I chose to love. I chose to follow my Savior, and it passed, but I believe Satan still tried to work through others to influence my decisions.

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I personally have never felt that kind of experience.  Sure there have been countless times when had a choice to make, but never felt a demonic influence in making that choice.  

If you have made selfish choices, then I believe you were influenced, but just believe it to be your own choice, since God does not condone such activities. 

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8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Is the battle between ' Good ' and 'Evil ' and eternal one, that is , never-ending, has always existed, will always exist ? Or is it created as needed for  each creation?

I shouldn't assume that you have been through the endowment. Listen to what is said. Satan is Yeshua's "elder brother" in the sense that he was once chosen - before Yeshua ever was. The difference being that Satan fell. He made a bad choice - a selfish one. Presumably evil will always exist, because it is doubtful Satan will ever be saved. If it weren't Satan, presumably it would be his No 2. Just like there is always a school bully to replace one that leaves, there will always be a Satan.

Quote

We are told Satan will eventually be bound but is that permanent or temporary ? Then again we are told that " there needs be opposition in all things " /

Satan is not bound by God since He has to give us our agency. No, men eventually learn how he works, and all will bow the knee before God, and for awhile at least, they will choose to follow God, and thus, Satan will have no power. But, we are told after this last millennium is finished, Satan will be loosed again. So God is not taking away the opposition. For awhile at least, men learn not to succumb to it. There will still be temptation, but men will not heed it, thus, binding Satan.

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58 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Not constant, no. But, when you say "your own desire" that is usually working towards evil, since evil is a selfish thing. That is what evil spirits work to manipulate - your selfish "me" feelings. So to you it seems to be your choice, but you are unaware that evil spirits are influencing you to make it. So, examples are people who "choose" to start watching pornography or worse. As they choose to meet their selfish desires, they become more and more subject to the power of Satan. Some people call it an addiction since they have lost their own power of choice. Have I felt evil influence? Yes, definitely. I chose to love. I chose to follow my Savior, and it passed, but I believe Satan still tried to work through others to influence my decisions.

If you have made selfish choices, then I believe you were influenced, but just believe it to be your own choice, since God does not condone such activities. 

I'm so glad I don't believe in this. 

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36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so glad I don't believe in this. 

It doesn't really matter whether you do or don't. It just is. I would say it is kinda like Star Wars: the Return of the Jedi when young Luke is tested by facing his fears ie the Dark Side. Those who realize the truth will be tested, while others go on oblivious to "the force." I used to not really believe in Satan. However, such belief is not scriptural. If you believe in Yeshua and His scriptures, there is a Satan.

Edited by RevTestament
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Satan does not wish that we believe in him at all. Atheists, by denying God, also deny the opposite, Satan. This gives Satan great power, with terrible results. Witness the effects of communism, and national socialism. Even by atheistic standards it’s fairly evil. 

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6 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Satan does not wish that we believe in him at all. Atheists, by denying God, also deny the opposite, Satan. This gives Satan great power, with terrible results. Witness the effects of communism, and national socialism. Even by atheistic standards it’s fairly evil. 

Yep, I was going to say that in not believing in Satan, you are helping him, but it just sounds... rude. Well, the fact is that if you believe in Satan, it strongly supports Christ's case - and you are right. Satan does not want that.

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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Evil exists apart from Satan, and any person can choose evil or good.  Everyone has free agency.

Now it does. God is NOT the author of evil. He allows evil to occur, at times which suits His purposes, but He is incapable of doing evil. Satan is the father of evil from the beginning. Now evil is part of the natural man and present within humanity. 

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35 minutes ago, Islander said:

Now it does. God is NOT the author of evil. He allows evil to occur, at times which suits His purposes, but He is incapable of doing evil. Satan is the father of evil from the beginning. Now evil is part of the natural man and present within humanity. 

It is correct to say that God is not the author of evil, but only because He is incapable of authoring evil.  He has no such power.  Likewise, a natural God in a natural universe cannot quash evil.  When one-third of His children rebelled, He could not stop their free choice.  He could only mourn.

In technical terms, God the Father is only one in an infinity of Gods who have no beginning and will have no end.  He is not the only Necessary Being, and Creation was organized by Him from preexisting materials.  He does good.  Some other Necessary Beings (us, for example) can do evil or good, as we choose.  He can cajole us not to do evil, and present a Plan of Salvation to us which will attenuate the evil we do.  But good and evil are permanent fixtures of our existence, ad infinitum.

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