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The Importance of Faith


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Just now, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't disagree with that.  Struggling, however, is one thing.  Open, active, often-hostile opposition (and this, remember, among the supposedly-faithful opposition :huh::unsure::unknw:) is quite another.

That's why I wrote a degree of sympathy. it's not absolute.

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On 9/4/2020 at 1:21 PM, ksfisher said:

I would disagree with this idea.  Trying not to derail to far, but the Lord's pattern in dealing with His children seems to be to teach and provide opportunities for them to learn and grow.  I would expect this pattern to continue into the millennium and the next life as well. 

I think Ken has demonstrated we may not be thinking of "sorting it all out" in the same way.  I don't see it as God solving all the problems and just presenting us with the solutions we then act out under his direction,  but rather providing opportunities that will resolve the confusion and ignorance that created the problems, which will then allow us to understand our past experiences into the context of eternity, which then provides us with more informed choices on how we wish to progress from there...thus our problems are no longer problems because God has taught us how to process them and helped us to do so.  

God is a God of order, but the mortal world and mortal men are not orderly in many many ways, at least in terms of man's perception because we have only half or less of the pieces to the jigsaw puzzle.  He can 'sort it out' because he can see the puzzle lid with the complete picture on it and so when we end up with a massive handful of pieces, he knows what we need to learn in order to start forming the picture, but he doesn't put the puzzle together for us because that is what we need to do.

Or another analogy I like better because it is more free form, our lives with its infinite number of threads interacting together ends up in an impenetrable tangle because not only are we trying to weave our tapestry while heavily veiled, but because as mortals we aren't even aware of most of the threads and think we are pulling on one when we are pulling on hundreds.  And this is of course a 'vicious cycle' as more and more threads get added as we live our mortal lives till to human perception, the ball is a mass of confusion though some areas the threads have been teased out and identified for proper placement...And to our eyes the threads are all some muddy brown, impossible to tease out the ones we need.  God however is capable of viewing the tangle as individual threads and his fingers are so sensitive he can work on one at a time.  So next life comes and he helps us untangle our threads, guiding our hands when needed, but mostly teaches us to distinguish colors and types and how to untie knots and keeps the threads in order, preparing them for use.  At that point when our threads are ready, we can continue to weave our own tapestry, he doesn't do that for us.  He teaches us how to sort and how to weave and then let's us weave our own weft threads into the tapestry while his warp threads hold the tapestry firm and stable.

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On 9/4/2020 at 2:07 PM, InCognitus said:

Now you're thinking.  As it says in  Luke 6:44:  "For every tree is known by his own fruit."  When you squeeze fruit you get juice.  When you squeeze pits you get just the pits.  That sizes it up quite well.

Hi InCogniuts.  What does this mean in light of our conversation?  I'm not following you here.  Are you saying some people who profess to believe are just pits, while others are fruit?  Are there "many" pits and how does any particular believer know he/she is not a pit?  

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On 9/4/2020 at 11:38 AM, Navidad said:

I know this is off subject a bit! I see in your profile you are a Mr. Pibb fan. I thought I should inform you that almost fifty years ago when I was a graduate student in the Baylor University School of Religion we all got together and awarded Mr. Pibb an honorary doctorate. You see, the school of religion was a haven for Dr. Pepper drinkers - mostly thoroughly addicted! Those who dared drink Mr. Pibb in Texas were struggling with their self-esteem as was Mr. Pibb. So we had a ceremony with some professors to alleviate these issues and granted Mr. Pibb an honorary doctor honoris causa! From that day on, drinkers of Dr. Pibb felt much better! Now you know the rest of the story!

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Baylor University School of Religion being located where Dr. Pepper was founded had something to do with how Dr. Pibb drinkers felt about drinking their counterfeit drink in that area.  Baylor is just a few blocks from the original Dr. Pepper factory, which is now a museum, and Dr. Pepper is considered pretty much as a sacred beverage in and around that area.  But sure go ahead and try to help the counterfeit drinkers to feel better about not drinking actual Dr. Pepper.  It's the real thing to those who like that kind of thing around there.  Your actions would pretty much equate to trying to help Pepsi drinkers feel better about drinking Pepsi where Coca-Cola was founded.  You rebel, you.  A scab in the heart of Texas, where I grew up drinking Dr. Pepper and carried empty bottles to the local store to maintain our family supply there.

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1 minute ago, Ahab said:

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Baylor University School of Religion being located where Dr. Pepper was founded had something to do with how Dr. Pibb drinkers felt about drinking their counterfeit drink in that area.  Baylor is just a few blocks from the original Dr. Pepper factory, which is now a museum, and Dr. Pepper is considered pretty much as a sacred beverage in and around that area.  But sure go ahead and try to help the counterfeit drinkers to feel better about not drinking actual Dr. Pepper.  It's the real thing to those who like that kind of thing around there.  Your actions would pretty much equate to trying to help Pepsi drinkers feel better about drinking Pepsi where Coca-Cola was founded.  You rebel, you.  A scab in the heart of Texas, where I grew up drinking Dr. Pepper and carried empty bottles to the local store to maintain our family supply there.

I went to that factory while visiting Waco, it was a fun day, so interesting! Diet Dr. Pepper lover here!

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1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I went to that factory while visiting Waco, it was a fun day, so interesting! Diet Dr. Pepper lover here!

Yeah I drink the diet version now too, preferably the diet strawberry version or the diet vanilla version if I am somewhere they don't have the diet strawberry version.  But my Mom still drinks the full strength non-diet version as she always has.

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yeah I drink the diet version now too, preferably the diet strawberry version or the diet vanilla version if I am somewhere they don't have the diet strawberry version.  But my Mom still drinks the full strength non-diet version as she always has.

They have a new version of Diet Dr. Pepper with Cream Soda! Yum Yum. I worked in a Southern Baptist church just outside of Waco as a Music and Youth Pastor. In that small town everyone drank RC Cola! That is another Texas staple!

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11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

They have a new version of Diet Dr. Pepper with Cream Soda! Yum Yum. I worked in a Southern Baptist church just outside of Waco as a Music and Youth Pastor. In that small town everyone drank RC Cola! That is another Texas staple!

Yeah I like the cream soda version too, which is what I was thinking when I said vanilla. But I also like the cherry vanilla version, too. And I also drank RC when they still made it.  And Big Red, a cherry bubble gum soda, also founded in Waco.  And most flavors of Crush sodas, another favorite in Waco.

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40 minutes ago, Navidad said:

They have a new version of Diet Dr. Pepper with Cream Soda! Yum Yum. I worked in a Southern Baptist church just outside of Waco as a Music and Youth Pastor. In that small town everyone drank RC Cola! That is another Texas staple!

 

30 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yeah I like the cream soda version too, which is what I was thinking when I said vanilla. But I also like the cherry vanilla version, too. And I also drank RC when they still made it.  And Big Red, a cherry bubble gum soda, also founded in Waco.  And most flavors of Crush sodas, another favorite in Waco.

You lucky Americans. Drinking diet DP for me is like being at Grandma's house thirty years ago, but I have never seen the extra flavours in Europe!

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1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

You lucky Americans. Drinking diet DP for me is like being at Grandma's house thirty years ago, but I have never seen the extra flavours in Europe!

i felt that way years ago when I went back to visit my Mom in Waco.  They had many more versions of Dr. Pepper there than we had then in the Pacific Northwest U.S.  Fortunately for me over the years we've added to our repertoire here and now have most of the versions.  Maybe someday Europe will have more of the versions than they have now.  And maybe you could just be a heretic until then and drink a counterfeit version of Dr. Pepper.

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15 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Hi InCogniuts.  What does this mean in light of our conversation?  I'm not following you here.  Are you saying some people who profess to believe are just pits, while others are fruit?  Are there "many" pits and how does any particular believer know he/she is not a pit?  

How does a person know?  The same way God knows:  By their fruit.  I not sure that a self-assessments would be accurate, because prideful people might make the mistake of thinking they have fruit when they don't, and humble people might be too hard on themselves and have more fruit than they realize.

There are several parables in scripture that use fruit as evidence of the application of the gospel in the person's life, and one of my favorites is the parable of the sower (or different kinds of soil) in Matthew 13:3-6 and 18-23.  That parable provides reasons as to why some individuals don't produce fruit (that would be the "pits" with no fruit from my comment).  As for the number of people in each category, that's hard to define.  But if we were to take that parable literally, there are four types of individuals described there, and only three receive the seed, and only one of those produces any kind of fruit.  So doing the math on that, 33.33% of individuals who receive the word and accept it produce fruit, and of that 33.33%, some produce 30 fold, some 60, and some 100 fold.  But that's probably stretching the parable beyond its intended meaning.

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7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

How does a person know?  The same way God knows:  By their fruit.  I not sure that a self-assessments would be accurate, because prideful people might make the mistake of thinking they have fruit when they don't, and humble people might be too hard on themselves and have more fruit than they realize.

There are several parables in scripture that use fruit as evidence of the application of the gospel in the person's life, and one of my favorites is the parable of the sower (or different kinds of soil) in Matthew 13:3-6 and 18-23.  That parable provides reasons as to why some individuals don't produce fruit (that would be the "pits" with no fruit from my comment).  As for the number of people in each category, that's hard to define.  But if we were to take that parable literally, there are four types of individuals described there, and only three receive the seed, and only one of those produces any kind of fruit.  So doing the math on that, 33.33% of individuals who receive the word and accept it produce fruit, and of that 33.33%, some produce 30 fold, some 60, and some 100 fold.  But that's probably stretching the parable beyond its intended meaning.

Interesting it works out to a similar sounding figure as the one third of the hosts of heaven, no?  If we're using the seed in the missionary sense of planting a seed for people to accept the gospel, it seems most people on earth never even have a seed tossed at them.  If we're suggesting one third of those who have a seed tossed at them produce no fruit, and no non believers produce God's fruits, then it appears we're talking a very tiny potentially exalted population relative to the whole.  Many are called and few chosen--type of stuff.  It seems based on this, before it all started, God knew most people sent to earth really aren't going to find exaltation at all.  It makes you wonder why so many chose to come. 

perhaps that's why so many said, essentially, "well it appears we'll end up being amongst those who were better off if we were never born anyways.  Might as well hook up here with the devil from the start.  Apparently most of them staying on Jesus' side will be joining us or making their way half way to us in that Telestial land anywho.  See ya all, dear bros and sisters.  This whole plan sounds more miserable then it's worth.  Maybe we'll try and make a heaven out of our hell, as it appears God ain't interested is most of us anywho."

God chimes in, "Indeed.  I'm only interested in a very few noble and great ones.  I mean if they go with you fools, they'll be worse off then they most likely are going to be...except for some very choice ones whom I know all about.  They'll end up with you.  But my goodness....I ain't exalting most of these losers.  I might give them some seemingly nice place to stay but essentially I never knew them and won't attempt to get to know them going forward anyway.  It might seem like a trick when I tell some of these chumps I never knew them, while I make them think i'm hearing their prayers and all that...but you know.  It'll be nice when they live eternally pointlessly in some heavenish place.  You degenerates are simply going to suffer because you're bodies are just spirit and that's gonna suck. hahaha."  

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4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Interesting it works out to a similar sounding figure as the one third of the hosts of heaven, no?

I equate it more to the statistics in a given ward for activity and temple recommend holders (although that in and of itself doesn't mean those same people are the ones that the Lord will see as having fruit.  But it does indicate which people at least are trying to take the faith seriously).  

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

If we're using the seed in the missionary sense of planting a seed for people to accept the gospel, it seems most people on earth never even have a seed tossed at them.  If we're suggesting one third of those who have a seed tossed at them produce no fruit, and no non believers produce God's fruits, then it appears we're talking a very tiny potentially exalted population relative to the whole.  Many are called and few chosen--type of stuff. 

Everyone will have an equal opportunity to receive the seed.  A relatively few will have the opportunity to receive it in this life (as you say), but all others will have the opportunity to receive it in the spirit world, between death and the resurrection.

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It seems based on this, before it all started, God knew most people sent to earth really aren't going to find exaltation at all.  It makes you wonder why so many chose to come. 

Everyone will "find" it, since all will have the opportunity.  But not all will choose to receive it in a way that results in exaltation.  It's a personal choice.  As for why so many choose to come here, it was an opportunity that all of us wanted even with the potential risk.

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

perhaps that's why so many said, essentially, "well it appears we'll end up being amongst those who were better off if we were never born anyways.  Might as well hook up here with the devil from the start.  Apparently most of them staying on Jesus' side will be joining us or making their way half way to us in that Telestial land anywho.  See ya all, dear bros and sisters.  This whole plan sounds more miserable then it's worth.  Maybe we'll try and make a heaven out of our hell, as it appears God ain't interested is most of us anywho."

The "you're doomed to fail so you might as well give up now" kind of thinking is one of the ways that people are led astray.  But that just sounds like a ploy from the opposing team at a football game, doesn't it?  And straying off the path causes us to lose hope, and that just feeds the same kind of attitude.  But there is always hope for those who want to return.  

The plan isn't miserable, it provides a lot more freedom and opportunities in the long term.

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

God chimes in, "Indeed.  I'm only interested in a very few noble and great ones.  I mean if they go with you fools, they'll be worse off then they most likely are going to be...except for some very choice ones whom I know all about.  They'll end up with you.  But my goodness....I ain't exalting most of these losers.  I might give them some seemingly nice place to stay but essentially I never knew them and won't attempt to get to know them going forward anyway.  It might seem like a trick when I tell some of these chumps I never knew them, while I make them think i'm hearing their prayers and all that...but you know.  It'll be nice when they live eternally pointlessly in some heavenish place.  You degenerates are simply going to suffer because you're bodies are just spirit and that's gonna suck. hahaha."  

God knows us all very well, and he wants us all to have the same opportunities that he has.  And he likely knows us well enough to know who will choose to follow the path to exaltation and those who won't.  But he has to give all those who wanted the opportunity to have a go at it.  Which would you prefer, a dictator God who dished out eternal assignments based on his foreknowledge, and we either rejoice or moan over his decisions and lack of "fair" judgement (in our view)?  Or a God who gives us all a chance to prove to ourselves by our own experiences where we will be the most comfortable spending eternity?  

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On 9/9/2020 at 12:14 PM, InCognitus said:

I equate it more to the statistics in a given ward for activity and temple recommend holders (although that in and of itself doesn't mean those same people are the ones that the Lord will see as having fruit.  But it does indicate which people at least are trying to take the faith seriously).  

I think wards are far more, overall, less active than that.  It's probably closer to the opposite of your proposal--1/3rd are active, holding recommends and stuff like that.  most are not.  

On 9/9/2020 at 12:14 PM, InCognitus said:

Everyone will have an equal opportunity to receive the seed.  A relatively few will have the opportunity to receive it in this life (as you say), but all others will have the opportunity to receive it in the spirit world, between death and the resurrection.

So you assume.  But then again, scripture teaches contradictory notions on this:

Quote

Behold, these are they who died awithout blaw;

73 And also they who are the aspirits of men kept in bprison, whom the Son visited, and cpreached the dgospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who areceived not the btestimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are ahonorable men of the earth, who were bblinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the apresence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are abodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

People who die without law will not have a chance at exaltation according to this.  

On 9/9/2020 at 12:14 PM, InCognitus said:

Everyone will "find" it, since all will have the opportunity.  But not all will choose to receive it in a way that results in exaltation.  It's a personal choice.  As for why so many choose to come here, it was an opportunity that all of us wanted even with the potential risk.

I'm aware of the efforts to explain away the issue.  But, unfortunately, that simply isn't consistent with scripture, which isn't consistent itself.  "Many" are those whom God never knows or attempts to get to know.  

On 9/9/2020 at 12:14 PM, InCognitus said:

The "you're doomed to fail so you might as well give up now" kind of thinking is one of the ways that people are led astray.  But that just sounds like a ploy from the opposing team at a football game, doesn't it?  And straying off the path causes us to lose hope, and that just feeds the same kind of attitude.  But there is always hope for those who want to return.  

Again, there is more hope for those whom God never gets to know to just simply make for themselves a tiny heaven.  He's already determined to not know them and will be happy, apparently, to have them suffer.   

On 9/9/2020 at 12:14 PM, InCognitus said:

The plan isn't miserable, it provides a lot more freedom and opportunities in the long term.

Not so.  The opposite, in fact.  Its simply this.  God set the demands.  If you don't live up those, then you will be burned (metaphorically) and ignored by Him, as He's determined to not know those who end up on his left hand.  But as it were, many of those who assumed they lived up to his demands are told coldly, "I never knew you, depart...let me spew you out of my mouth"...and the like.  There's no freedom to have to do that which is demanded else you burn.  There's no hope when many to most of those around us are ignored by God.  So, I would say, if Mormonism is true and I were a believer who eventually God exalts, I'd be more miserable than any.  Because I simply could not stand to be exalted above others who simply were ignored and treated with disdain because, often as it worked out, they simply didn't have opportunity.  And even if they did fail to assent to silly demands, I'd feel eternal torture for them.  I'd rather give up my place for them. But since that wouldn't be possible I'd rather join them and let the self-righteous exalted reign with conceit in their thrones.  Seriously...sounds miserable.  I've not been one to find myself happily above another.  

On 9/9/2020 at 12:14 PM, InCognitus said:

God knows us all very well, and he wants us all to have the same opportunities that he has.  And he likely knows us well enough to know who will choose to follow the path to exaltation and those who won't.  But he has to give all those who wanted the opportunity to have a go at it.  Which would you prefer, a dictator God who dished out eternal assignments based on his foreknowledge, and we either rejoice or moan over his decisions and lack of "fair" judgement (in our view)?  Or a God who gives us all a chance to prove to ourselves by our own experiences where we will be the most comfortable spending eternity?  

Yes, prove whether we will do the silly little things he wants for the sake of we just doing them...but again, if we do that, he'll report that he never knew us anyway.  Might as well stay true to ourselves.  

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