Mosiah

[Jracforr]

What might be considered an over simplification of a complex problem may
 help to explain the pattern of Nephite Civilization in the  past. A  simplified version of Colonial North America is  “ Copied” to Central America and Mexico, to show what might have transpired in that region . While there are many variables in places of first landing and exploration, the end result over time  may have been similar, as both the Nephites and the English are thought to be of the House of Joseph. Mexico, with the exception of the Yucatán, would be  Central America’s equivalent of Canada, while the American Colonial States, would equate to the following Central American region. 
 New England - Yucatán 

New York - Guatemala 

Pennsylvania - Honduras 

Virginia - Nicaragua 

North Carolina - Costa Rica 

Georgia  - Panama. 
The method of Colonization was different for Nephites and English, as the Nephites  established their first settlements in the Equivalent of Georgia - Panama, while the the English first settled in Virginia - Nicaragua. Without having to go over the detailed pattern of settlement, we can see that over time New York / Guatemala, could have become a major commercial centers for both Civilizations, as happened in the US, while the principal administrative center differ for the Nephites at Panama- Georgia and for the English, at Virginia - Nicaragua. While the English created a major cultural  region in New England - Yucatán, the Book of Mormon seem not to have any such Cultural Center for the Nephites, in the far North of the Land .  Over their Millennial existence in the land, the Nephites did accomplish considerable more than is briefly recorded in the Book of Mormon, as it states, therefore many pieces of the Nephite’s geographic puzzle remain  missing.  The probability exists that the Book of Mormon, is primarily a record of the Southern Nephite States and the record of the Northern States are not included. 
                     Georgia - Land of Nephi 

                     South Carolina - Zarahemla 

                     North Carolina - Bountiful 

                     Virginia - Land Desolation  

The Book of Mormon can be regarded as a “ Time Capsule “ from the Ancient World, to the inhabitants of the American South. All the admonition and warnings, are as relevant to this region today, as when they were previously given. The LDS Church can help these regional states to understand what the future hold, if Pride and Vanity dictates their future choices, 400 years after their ancestor’s arrival.
 

[pogi]

Deja vu! 

[Ahab]

You are just making this stuff up.  Please stop it.

[rodheadlee]

47 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You are just making this stuff up.  Please stop it.

That ain't right. It's interesting.

[Jracforr]

The Hebrew settlers who arrived in the Central American colony of Nephi, did so in approximately 600 BC. The  British Protestants who arrived in the corresponding area of North America, then called the Province of Carolina arrived in 1670, thereby providing corresponding dates, to establish a common Timeline for Ancient Nephites Civilization, and those who are “Likened unto Nephites “in the modern era. 
The year 2020  - 1670  = 350 , therefore we are 350 years away from our common starting, which would be 600 BC - 350 = 250 BC, for the ancient Nephites. 
             The year 250 BC takes us to the era of Mosiah the Elder, who along with his son Benjamin and Grandson Mosiah, were rulers among the Nephites , as noted in Omni I: 12-22.  This era corresponds to our time in America, giving us insights into the past that may help to guide the national decision we make. While the problems of Nephite Civilization were confined to the South, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, the connectivity of our modern era makes ever local problem a national concern, and thus more urgent to be resolved.

[Bob Crockett]

This is way better than the MesoAmerican theory.

[Ahab]

21 minutes ago, Jracforr said:

The Hebrew settlers who arrived in the Central American colony of Nephi, did so in approximately 600 BC. The  British Protestants who arrived in the corresponding area of North America, then called the Province of Carolina arrived in 1670, thereby providing corresponding dates, to establish a common Timeline for Ancient Nephites Civilization, and those who are “Likened unto Nephites “in the modern era. 
The year 2020  - 1670  = 350 , therefore we are 350 years away from our common starting, which would be 600 BC - 350 = 250 BC, for the ancient Nephites. 
             The year 250 BC takes us to the era of Mosiah the Elder, who along with his son Benjamin and Grandson Mosiah, were rulers among the Nephites , as noted in Omni I: 12-22.  This era corresponds to our time in America, giving us insights into the past that may help to guide the national decision we make. While the problems of Nephite Civilization were confined to the South, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, the connectivity of our modern era makes ever local problem a national concern, and thus more urgent to be resolved.

I am having a hard time trying to figure out from your math who to vote for in 2020 as the President of the United States of America.  Who is it to be?  Donald J. Trump or Joe Biden?  I'm thinking it should be Donald again unless someone can manage to change my mind.

[Bob Crockett]

The map is kinda cool but I'd like to see the narrow neck of land and Cumorah plotted on it, among other things.  I'd like to dig for that hidden room of treasure.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

The map is kinda cool but I'd like to see the narrow neck of land and Cumorah plotted on it, among other things.  I'd like to dig for that hidden room of treasure.

As would we all, my brother.  As would we all.   I mean, as long as we could easily get to it with a shovel or excavator.

[Jracforr]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I am having a hard time trying to figure out from your math who to vote for in 2020 as the President of the United States of America.  Who is it to be?  Donald J. Trump or Joe Biden?  I'm thinking it should be Donald again unless someone can manage to change my mind.

If I can find Mosiah  beyond the corrupt party machinery of both Democrats and Republicans I would vote, but I am prepared to sit it out and let the Plague of God humble the survivors as the BOM said it will, sad but true.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

The map is kinda cool but I'd like to see the narrow neck of land and Cumorah plotted on it, among other things.  I'd like to dig for that hidden room of treasure.

He is trying to see a pattern between the progression of the Nephite civilization and the American South, not create a geography for the Book of Mormon.

Personally, I think the patterns and lessons from the Book of Mormon apply to everyone on a personal, community and national scale.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Jracforr said:

The Book of Mormon can be regarded as a “ Time Capsule “ from the Ancient World, to the inhabitants of the American South. All the admonition and warnings, are as relevant to this region today, as when they were previously given. The LDS Church can help these regional states to understand what the future hold, if Pride and Vanity dictates their future choices, 400 years after their ancestor’s arrival.

Likewise, a time capsule for everyone on a personal, community and national scale (liken the scriptures unto ourselves). In many respects geography can have quite an influence on the development of a civilization, which might be comparable between like geographies, all other things considered.

How are you applying the lessons learned to aid the American South (this needn't be accomplished with a direct appeal  to the tie-in with the Book of Mormon)?

[Duncan]

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

He is trying to see a pattern between the progression of the Nephite civilization and the American South, not create a geography for the Book of Mormon.

Personally, I think the patterns and lessons from the Book of Mormon apply to everyone on a personal, community and national scale.

exactley, like if the Book of Mormon was given exclusively to the US-why bother distributing it to everyone everywhere? The other thing too is what version of the US? as you know the US in 1830 isn't like it is today-No Taco Bell🌮, no KFC🍗, In and Out Burger🍔, besides new US States🌎

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

I am having a hard time trying to figure out from your math who to vote for in 2020 as the President of the United States of America.  Who is it to be?  Donald J. Trump or Joe Biden?  I'm thinking it should be Donald again unless someone can manage to change my mind.

Is that the way you read the Book of Mormon?  With partisan political nonsense in mind?

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Jracforr said:

The Hebrew settlers who arrived in the Central American colony of Nephi, did so in approximately 600 BC. The  British Protestants who arrived in the corresponding area of North America, then called the Province of Carolina arrived in 1670, thereby providing corresponding dates, to establish a common Timeline for Ancient Nephites Civilization, and those who are “Likened unto Nephites “in the modern era. 
The year 2020  - 1670  = 350 , therefore we are 350 years away from our common starting, which would be 600 BC - 350 = 250 BC, for the ancient Nephites. 
             The year 250 BC takes us to the era of Mosiah the Elder, who along with his son Benjamin and Grandson Mosiah, were rulers among the Nephites , as noted in Omni I: 12-22.  This era corresponds to our time in America, giving us insights into the past that may help to guide the national decision we make. While the problems of Nephite Civilization were confined to the South, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, the connectivity of our modern era makes ever local problem a national concern, and thus more urgent to be resolved.

 

2 hours ago, Jracforr said:

If I can find Mosiah  beyond the corrupt party machinery of both Democrats and Republicans I would vote, but I am prepared to sit it out and let the Plague of God humble the survivors as the BOM said it will, sad but true.

Why would we not look for immediate parallels inside Estados Unidos de Mexico?  If you assume a Central American colony of Nephi, why would you go so far afield, and then only to the American South?

The United States of Mexico has far more pertinent connections, including massive Gaddianton problems (drug cartels) threatening the stability of the country.

[Jracforr]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Why would we not look for immediate parallels inside Estados Unidos de Mexico?  If you assume a Central American colony of Nephi, why would you go so far afield, and then only to the American South?

The United States of Mexico has far more pertinent connections, including massive Gaddianton problems (drug cartels) threatening the stability of the country.

The Nephite or kindred people might have lived throughout Central America, but the GEOGRAPHIC REFERENCES given in the Book of Mormon, place the events in the SOUTHERN REGION of Central America. Their buried records were taken from these lands to New York , by ancient explorers, just as ancient records from Egypt and Greece are dug up today, and taken by modern explorers, to their own homeland. Moroni did not have to walk thousands of mile  to New York with them, as some doubters  and scoffers imply.

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, Jracforr said:

The Nephite or kindred people might have lived throughout Central America, but the GEOGRAPHIC REFERENCES given in the Book of Mormon, place the events in the SOUTHERN REGION of Central America. .............................

In only one area of the Western Hemisphere do we find a high, literate culture, with massive population, which used cement -- as described in the BofM -- and that is in Mesoamerica.  Moreover, based on the actual distances traveled by the Nephites (as described by the Nephites), the area they inhabited must have been very small, and not throughout an entire region.

In his book Mormon’s Map, John Sorenson lists several crucial and interlocking distance references:

1.  The journeys of Alma the Elder’s people (Mosiah 18:1–7, 31–34; 23:1–3, 25–26; 24:18–25)
2.  Limhi’s explorers’ expedition to the land northward (Mosiah 8:7–9; 21:25–27)
3.  Movements in the Amlicite war (Alma 2)
4.  Alma the Younger’s circuit of cities preaching repentance (Alma 5–15)
5.  The wars in the borders by the east sea and in the southwest quarter (Alma 43–62:42)
6.  The land of Nephi as described in the Zeniffite account and that of the sons of Mosiah II (Mosiah 7–22; Alma 17–26)
7.  The last wars between Nephites and Lamanites (Mormon 2–6)

The Book of Mormon text itself forces the following reasonable conclusions:
1.  a total of about twenty-two or twenty-three days’ foot travel between the city of Nephi and the city of Zarahemla.   250 miles in round numbers, including twists and turns through mountainous country. The beeline distance between the two cities would more likely be on the order of 180 miles. The actual territory inhabited by the Nephites would probably have extended no more than 75 miles upstream from the city of Zarahemla to the local land of Manti, . . . the upper river was 75 miles long, the stretch downstream from the city of Zarahemla might have been, say, 100 miles northward. . .  the straight-line distance from the city of Zarahemla to the boundary between Bountiful and the land Desolation—the northern limit of the land southward—adds up to a total of 160 miles. That means that from the city of Nephi to where the land northward began was roughly 340 miles on a direct line. . . . the land southward stretched only a few hundred miles in length. (Keep in mind that Palestine from Dan to Beersheba was only about 150 miles long.)
2.  from the city of Nephi to the place where Ether left the plates, which was near the hill Ramah/Cumorah. . . . not much more than four hundred airline miles from Nephi.
3.  two days and one night = hill Amnihu to Gideon, no more than twenty miles; Gideon direct to the ford at the river, maybe twelve miles; Zarahemla to Minon, not over thirty-five miles; Zarahemla city to the river ford, less than ten miles, . . . the river bank to the wilderness of Hermounts, not much greater than ten miles.  
4.  Two or three days of travel seem called for to reach Melek, perhaps fifty miles or more. From Melek it then took Alma2 three days’ travel northward to reach Ammonihah (see Alma 8:6), say another fifty-plus miles.5 Traveling from Ammonihah to Sidom (the name suggests that it was at the Sidon River) should have taken roughly the same time and distance as a journey from Zarahemla to Melek . . . from Sidom to Zarahemla, back up the river, would again have roughly reversed the distance from Melek to Ammonihah—three days’ travel
5.  about eighteen miles along an irregular trail. On a beeline, Bountiful to Mulek might then be on the order of twelve miles. . . . Mulek to Gid should be roughly the same distance (perhaps a normal day’s walking for a merchant. . . . Omner thirty miles southward from Bountiful.
6.  total distance the Lamanites traveled southward parallel to the beach could hardly have been more than fifteen miles. . . . Bountiful to Gid/Mulek, twelve miles; Gid/Mulek to Omner, twenty miles; the southward component of the last day’s flight, maximum fifteen miles. . . . the distance to Shilom could hardly have exceeded ten miles and the near border of Shemlon would have been within twenty miles   The Lamanite army pursued the fleeing people of Limhi but lost their track after two days (under fifty miles). After wandering about trying to find their way back to Nephi, those Lamanites stumbled onto the land of Amulon (see Mosiah 22:16; 23:30–31, 35). Still confused about how to reach Nephi, after leaving Amulon they came across the land of Helam, still lost, yet both lands were no more than eighty-five miles direct from Nephi.
7.  the positions of the four lands—Moroni, Nephihah, Aaron, and Ammonihah— . . .  the total width from coast to coast across the land southward comes out to be on the order of two hundred miles.  a range of figures between 60 and 125 miles can be argued as reasonable for the “day and a half’s journey.” (Recall that the narrower one makes the neck, the more difficult it is to explain how Limhi’s explorers failed to realize that they had passed through it.)   the distance to Shilom could hardly have exceeded ten miles and the near border of Shemlon would have been within twenty miles.

Quote

Moroni did not have to walk thousands of mile  to New York with them, .......................

David Ingram (a shipwrecked English sailor) made the trek with several companions and on foot from Tampico, Mexico, to the border of Canada and Maine in 11 months in the mid-sixteenth century (J. L. Sorenson, Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon [FARMS/Deseret, 1985], 45).  Note also the 8-year journey of Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca, a member of the Captain Narvaez Expedition, across southern North America beginning in 1528 (he was a shipwrecked royal treasurer from Seville, Spain; see de Vaca’s own account, Castaways, ed. Enrique Pupo-Walker; trans. F. M. Lopez-Morillas [Berkeley: UC Press, 1993]).  In 1999, British writer Richard Nathan retraced Ingram's journey in reverse, walking from Nova Scotia to Tampico in just 9 months –  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ingram_(explorer) .   Moroni had plenty of time to walk to what would one day become the Manchester area of New York State, and deposit the plates.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[JarMan]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Moroni had plenty of time to walk to what would one day become the Manchester area of New York State, and deposit the plates.

It’s a good thing he didn’t have to lug around some heavy, priceless object in addition to all his other gear. That would have made hunting and foraging, not to mention hiking, pretty tough. A water route seems more practical. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

It’s a good thing he didn’t have to lug around some heavy, priceless object in addition to all his other gear. That would have made hunting and foraging, not to mention hiking, pretty tough. A water route seems more practical. 

Yes.  He no doubt had the Sword of Laban and the Breastplate, in addition to the approx 50 lb Book of Mormon Plates.  Of course, U.S. Army Special Forces and Navy Seals often lug around even heavier loads, so that is not an impossible feat.  In addition, there were plenty of tribal peoples living between Mexico and New York at that time.  As a lone traveler, he would have been welcome in nearly any village along the way.

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Duncan said:

exactley, like if the Book of Mormon was given exclusively to the US-why bother distributing it to everyone everywhere? The other thing too is what version of the US? as you know the US in 1830 isn't like it is today-No Taco Bell🌮, no KFC🍗, In and Out Burger🍔, besides new US States🌎

I don't know they made it back then!

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes.  He no doubt had the Sword of Laban and the Breastplate, in addition to the approx 50 lb Book of Mormon Plates.  Of course, U.S. Army Special Forces and Navy Seals often lug around even heavier loads, so that is not an impossible feat.  In addition, there were plenty of tribal peoples living between Mexico and New York at that time.  As a lone traveler, he would have been welcome in nearly any village along the way.

This is a post @Jracforr made on another thread, which is a fairly clear explanation of what he's trying to do. I can't use the quote function on this device so I will use italics for the quote.

 

Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon is a difficult task, and it is understandable for some people to maintain previously held beliefs, though the Church has not fully endorsed any prior theory. I accept and understand that reluctance, but I believe my theory is best supported by the Geographic evidence in the BOM. What I have discovered in my search, is that the Geographic events in the BOM occurred exclusively in the South and not in the North of Central America, where all the Archeological Treasures are to be found . Book of Mormon Civilization may best be equated to the Southern Confederate Civilization of the US as the evidence shows, the people who created the structures in the North are not accounted for in the existing pages of this book. The people and structures in the North may well be connected to those in the BOM as several bouts of migration suggest, but the proof is not currently available.

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Duncan said:

exactley, like if the Book of Mormon was given exclusively to the US-why bother distributing it to everyone everywhere? The other thing too is what version of the US? as you know the US in 1830 isn't like it is today-No Taco Bell🌮, no KFC🍗, In and Out Burger🍔, besides new US States🌎

Oh I get it now.

I couldn't figure out why he didn't just stop at Walmart and pick up what he needed when he got there, then he wouldn't have to carry it. That's what I do.

I walked to NY once, but I started in Brooklyn and walked across the Brooklyn Bridge.  I guess he couldn't do that either huh?

Edited August 28, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Islander]

On 8/27/2020 at 1:29 PM, Ahab said:

You are just making this stuff up.  Please stop it.

Hahaha! I just couldn't help myself. Priceless.

[CV75]

On 8/27/2020 at 7:31 PM, Duncan said:

exactley, like if the Book of Mormon was given exclusively to the US-why bother distributing it to everyone everywhere? The other thing too is what version of the US? as you know the US in 1830 isn't like it is today-No Taco Bell🌮, no KFC🍗, In and Out Burger🍔, besides new US States🌎

Although we do have a Book of Mormon reference to take-out: "I will make thy food become sweet, that ye cook it not..."

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Although we do have a Book of Mormon reference to take-out: "I will make thy food become sweet, that ye cook it not..."

🤣🤣🤣🤣