Catholic Publisher Accidentally Uses Angel Moroni on Hymnal Cover

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Due to its height and conductivity, it is not unheard of for an angel Moroni statue to be struck by lightning during a thunderstorm just like a lightning rod.

Some temples like the Bountiful Temple actually have a lightning rod sticking out the top of Moroni's head.

Is the Angel Moroni a lightning rod? Statue does what it's built to do

[rodheadlee]

Maybe it's prophetic and the old and the new will be united in Christ.

Edited August 27, 2020 by rodheadlee

[strappinglad]

Those last tree pics , SMAC , the spires could pass for Presbyterian ...or Orthodox Russian. 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I do get that, but I'm sure that the Catholic group that choose the symbol didn't do it because it was of the angel Moroni.  

I agree that they were likely ignorant of the fact that the painting was of the angel Moroni - just like the doctor I visited who was ignorant about having a wall-sized canvas of a fellow preparing to kill himself by drinking a cup of poison hemlock. 

But being ignorant of the meaning doesn't actually change the meaning, does it?

 

Quote

 

I get why Catholics would want it changed, I would too in their shoes.  I get why they are upset and think it was a bad choice.  I would probably feel the same.  But I still feel that saying that an angel with a horn on a ball "is not compatible with Catholicism in any way" is a bit dramatic.  The angel Moroni isn't compatible with Catholicism, but like I said, I don't think the publishers were all "lets put a picture of Angel Moroni on the cover."  They used it because the picture itself is compatible, even if the meaning behind the picture isn't.  

Meaning is important and it wasn't a good choice to use it, but there are ways that the picture is not "highly inappropriate".

 

The only way the picture isn't highly inappropriate is if you don't understand what the picture means though. 

I guess I kind of think of it like this: Pretend that the publisher, rather than selecting the angel, had instead selected a painting which appeared to be an open bible on an old country table, and the book of scripture happened to have discernible / readable text on the pages which happened to be in a foreign language (say, Spanish). It looks like a nice picture, but if you are able to read Spanish you are able to determine that it isn't a bible after all - in fact, it's actually a copy of the Book of Mormon instead (probably opened up to 1 Nephi 14 to boot).

I would think that having a copy of the Book of Mormon on the cover of a Catholic hymnal would be inappropriate - even if many people might be incapable of recognizing the image as being a copy of the Book of Mormon. 

 

[Amulek]

Incidentally, because of these articles, I went to the artist's website and noticed that most of his works that I found most interesting have all been sold. I wonder if that was the case prior to this controversy or if it has merely served to make more people aware of Jorge Santangelo's art. I suppose that would be a rather pleasant, unexpected result from this controversy.  

 

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Those last tree pics , SMAC , the spires could pass for Presbyterian ...or Orthodox Russian. 

Sorta.  The Church has been pretty open about temple design being heavily influenced by pre-existing archictural and design elements.  For example, Truman Angell, when designing the Salt Lake Temple, traveled extensively in Europe to visit various great buildings, such as St. Paul's Cathedral designed by Sir Christopher Wren.  The Oakland Temple has Asian motifs to reflect that regions influence in the Bay Area.   The Mesa temple, along with the temples in Laie and Cardston, "was built in a neoclassical style suggestive of the Temple in Jerusalem."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

So I don’t have to read every link, please tell me where the “backlash” was coming from? I hope not from us, as I think that (to coin a phrase), “Imitation is the highest form of flattery”, or so I think it goes. I’m delighted that someone outside of our Faith, values something we cherish so much. I wish they would teach from the Book of Mormon, as others Faith’s and Churches have in the past, and still do. 

[longview]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Some temples like the Bountiful Temple actually have a lightning rod sticking out the top of Moroni's head.

Is the Angel Moroni a lightning rod? Statue does what it's built to do

Speaking of lightning rods, a very positive event occurred in the past week that put the RCC in a good light.  One of its members had a highly acclaimed role as a speaker at the RNC convention.  Nick Sandman is a credit to anyone!

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I agree that they were likely ignorant of the fact that the painting was of the angel Moroni - just like the doctor I visited who was ignorant about having a wall-sized canvas of a fellow preparing to kill himself by drinking a cup of poison hemlock. 

But being ignorant of the meaning doesn't actually change the meaning, does it?

 

The only way the picture isn't highly inappropriate is if you don't understand what the picture means though. 

I guess I kind of think of it like this: Pretend that the publisher, rather than selecting the angel, had instead selected a painting which appeared to be an open bible on an old country table, and the book of scripture happened to have discernible / readable text on the pages which happened to be in a foreign language (say, Spanish). It looks like a nice picture, but if you are able to read Spanish you are able to determine that it isn't a bible after all - in fact, it's actually a copy of the Book of Mormon instead (probably opened up to 1 Nephi 14 to boot).

I would think that having a copy of the Book of Mormon on the cover of a Catholic hymnal would be inappropriate - even if many people might be incapable of recognizing the image as being a copy of the Book of Mormon. 

 

From the article it looks like they knew of the Moroni connection. They talked to the artist about it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

Nature started it.  Poor Moroni has had it rough lately.

When are you going to off this giving-Moroni-the-boot nonsense? It’s not clever. And it’s not true. While the temple statue has long been a symbol used in the Church (still is), it was never THE official Church logo. So it was not supplanted by the new logo with the Christus graphic. 

[Scott Lloyd]

56 minutes ago, longview said:

Speaking of lightning rods, a very positive event occurred in the past week that put the RCC in a good light.  One of its members had a highly acclaimed role as a speaker at the RNC convention.  Nick Sandman is a credit to anyone!

Agreed. 
 

Your comment is going to be seen as violating the no-politics rule, but I love it nevertheless. 

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When are you going to off this giving-Moroni-the-boot nonsense? It’s not clever. And it’s not true. While the temple statue has long been a symbol used in the Church (still is), it was never THE official Church logo. So it was not supplanted by the new logo with the Christus graphic. 

Who said anything about a logo?  But since you bring it up, yes, Moroni was officially used as logo by the church for many different things; and yes, those logos of Moroni have been replaced.

 

Replaced with:

In many applications, Moroni officially got. da. boot! 

You seem to be sensitive about that.  Would you like to talk about your feelings?

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Who said anything about a logo?  But since you bring it up, yes, Moroni was officially used as logo by the church for many different things; and yes, those logos of Moroni have been replaced.

 

Replaced with:

 

Moroni officially got the boot! 

You seem to be sensitive about that.  Would you like to talk about your feelings?

What did the angel symbol “get the boot” from? Are you saying ii’s no longer in use? When did that happen? Have they started tearing the statues down from the temples now? There are three in my line of sight from my home — Draper, Jordan River and Oquirrh Mountain — and the statue is still up on all three. Last I heard, it will still grace the Salt Lake Temple once the renovations are complete. 
 

CFR that the angel symbol has been officially retired from use in the Church or that it ever was the exclusive symbol of the Church. 
 

Edited to add: The angel symbol is still in use on the “Saints Channel” app on my iPhone, though the name has been changed from “Mormon Channel.” Guess the folks in charge of “Saints Channel” didn’t get the memo. (Did you even bother to check and see what the current graphic is for “Saints Channel” before selecting “Mormon Channel” as one of your examples?
 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What did the angel symbol “get the boot” from?

Quite a few things.  Do I really need to name them all?  Are you denying that Moroni got-da-boot from many different applications of use?

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR that the angel symbol has been officially retired from use in the Church. 

Here is my CFR:

Edited August 27, 2020 by pogi

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

So I don’t have to read every link, please tell me where the “backlash” was coming from? I hope not from us, as I think that (to coin a phrase), “Imitation is the highest form of flattery”, or so I think it goes. I’m delighted that someone outside of our Faith, values something we cherish so much. I wish they would teach from the Book of Mormon, as others Faith’s and Churches have in the past, and still do. 

When I first discovered the Book of Mormon I was so naive that I thought entire congregations would be converted and baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints as their preachers, priests and members discovered the Book of Mormon.

[3DOP]

20 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Exactly what kind of music do they publish; my curiosity has been piqued?  

Our hymnal has changed a bit since I was a boy. I miss many of the hymns no longer found in our hymnals and many of the ones that are there I would rather that I never heard them again. We each have our preferences. 

Hmmm. Storm Rider...Hi.

Everybody Catholic or not. Hi. Hunch. Hunches. Of course, I think my hunches are probable. Don't mistake any hunch about you, whoever you are, as a dogmatic expression of my convictions about you. All anyone who disagrees with any of 3DOP's hunches needs to do is to tell him that he is out to lunch about his hunch in regards to yourself. 3DOP will then acknowledge that you are right about you, and he was wrong about you. 

-----------------

To Storm Rider's question: 

I have been away from a Mass that would use their stuff for years now. I found, from a Catholic perspective that the music supplied in the 90's by Oregon Catholic Publishing was shallow, sappy, and human-centered, like the Novus Ordo Mass. But it goes with the Novus Ordo. It is in my opinion, only appropriate for a watered down Catholic liturgy that is similarly shallow, sappy, and human centered. I mean no disrespect in saying that I have a hunch that LDS would be more at home with what I consider shallow, sappy, and human-centered music, than the four Catholics who participate here (I include Spammer who is Orthodox).

I do not intend to speak for my fellow LDS or Catholics here. But I also have a hunch that LDS would also be "more at home" with the Novus Ordo Mass than the liturgies that I suspect the four of us Catholics here (Spammer is Orthodox I know, but that is Catholic for sake of this discussion) would prefer. The Novus Ordo is a break with a liturgical tradition that had very warily allowed developmental changes for over 2,000 years. This would be because Catholics have always held that the various rites of the Church have direct links to how the Apostles taught their disciples how to pray the sacred liturgy. Naturally there is great veneration and regard for the ancient liturgies. The Novus Ordo on the other hand was designed by one main author and several Protestant consultants who offered input and were ultimately satisfied with the results. This is not controversial. The Novus Ordo is a made up liturgy designed to appeal more to non-Catholics. It is also the reason why Benedict XVI, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger referred to the New Mass as a "banal, on-the-spot product". Note that this was from a man who was and remains convinced that the Novus Ordo is good and necessary. He probably sees ecumenical value to it, but he is also honest enough to point out that this kind of liturgy is unique in that it is a product that was manufactured for a purpose. That purpose resulted in a strategy to tone down the "high church" Gregorian chant, pipe organs, signs of the cross, mea culpas, genuflections, and incense, etc., while de-emphasizing Catholic truths that are particularly unpopular with non-Catholics. Supposedly, this would draw Protestants. The fruit of the strategy is not good. Pray and sing like a Protestant long enough, and you start believing like a Protestant.  The Novus Ordo can't make Protestants want to be Catholic because it is inauthentic Catholicism. Ironically, the Novus Ordo doesn't make Catholics want to be Catholic either. Catholics are leaving the Church and if non-Catholics feel more at home when they visit, they don't stay.  

THIS is why I think it would be natural if LDS liked OCP Music and the Novus Ordo more than my Catholic fellows here or I would. Both are made not for us as Catholics, but for you as non-Catholics. That is the basis of my hunch/hunches.

Thanks for your consideration,

Rory 

Edited August 27, 2020 by 3DOP

[Scott Lloyd]

57 minutes ago, pogi said:

Quite a few things.  Do I really need to name them all?  Are you denying that Moroni got-da-boot from many different applications of use?

Here is my CFR:

 

You tell me. How many instances does it take to rationalize the misleading implication that the Church is no longer using the angel Moroni as a symbol for anything or that it was replaced as the official logo of the Church when that was not what it was. 

And yes, straw man might be an apt characterization for the by now ad nauseum assertion that the angel symbol “got the boot.”

Edited August 27, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, straw man might be an apt characterization for the by now ad nauseum assertion that the angel symbol “got the boot.”

"Ad nauseum"?  I have no idea what you are talking about. I am just getting started. 

I love having a trigger for you!  It is so amusing. 

It's no straw man.  You are just misinterpreting it to mean...from every application. 

Trigger warning!

Moroni. Got. Da. Boooooot!

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You tell me. How many instances does it take to rationalize the misleading implication that the Church is no longer using the angel Moroni as a symbol for anything or that it was replaced as the official logo of the Church when that was not what it was. 

And yes, straw man might be an apt characterization for the by now ad nauseum assertion that the angel symbol “got the boot.”

PLUS we would have given Moroni 2 boots IF we ever gave him one and the fact that he is still depicted in his bare feet shows that he doesn't have any boots at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (for emphasis) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ahab]

17 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Hmmm. Storm Rider...Hi.

Everybody Catholic or not. Hi. Hunch. Hunches. Of course, I think my hunches are probable. Don't mistake any hunch about you, whoever you are, as a dogmatic expression of my convictions about you. All anyone who disagrees with any of 3DOP's hunches needs to do is to tell him that he is out to lunch about his hunch in regards to yourself. 3DOP will then acknowledge that you are right about you, and he was wrong about you. 

-----------------

To Storm Rider's question: 

I have been away from a Mass that would use their stuff for years now. I found, from a Catholic perspective that the music supplied in the 90's by Oregon Catholic Publishing was shallow, sappy, and human-centered, like the Novus Ordo Mass. But it goes with the Novus Ordo. It is in my opinion, only appropriate for a watered down Catholic liturgy that is similarly shallow, sappy, and human centered. I mean no disrespect in saying that I have a hunch that LDS would be more at home with what I consider shallow, sappy, and human-centered music, than the four Catholics who participate here (I include Spammer who is Orthodox).

I do not intend to speak for my fellow LDS or Catholics here. But I also have a hunch that LDS would also be "more at home" with the Novus Ordo Mass than the liturgies that I suspect the four of us Catholics here (Spammer is Orthodox I know, but that is Catholic for sake of this discussion) would prefer. The Novus Ordo is a break with a liturgical tradition that had very warily allowed developmental changes for over 2,000 years. This would be because Catholics have always held that the various rites of the Church have direct links to how the Apostles taught their disciples how to pray the sacred liturgy. Naturally there is great veneration and regard for the ancient liturgies. The Novus Ordo on the other hand was designed by one main author and several Protestant consultants who offered input and were ultimately satisfied with the results. This is not controversial. The Novus Ordo is a made up liturgy designed to appeal more to non-Catholics. It is also the reason why Benedict XVI, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger referred to the New Mass as a "banal, on-the-spot product". Note that this was from a man who was and remains convinced that the Novus Ordo is good and necessary. He probably sees ecumenical value to it, but he is also honest enough to point out that this kind of liturgy is unique in that it is a product that was manufactured for a purpose. That purpose resulted in a strategy to tone down the "high church" Gregorian chant, pipe organs, signs of the cross, mea culpas, genuflections, and incense, etc., while de-emphasizing Catholic truths that are particularly unpopular with non-Catholics. Supposedly, this would draw Protestants. The fruit of the strategy is not good. Pray and sing like a Protestant long enough, and you start believing like a Protestant.  The Novus Ordo can't make Protestants want to be Catholic because it is inauthentic Catholicism. Ironically, the Novus Ordo doesn't make Catholics want to be Catholic either. Catholics are leaving the Church and if non-Catholics feel more at home when they visit, they don't stay.  

THIS is why I think it would be natural if LDS liked OCP Music and the Novus Ordo more than my Catholic fellows here or I would. Both are made not for us as Catholics, but for you as non-Catholics. That is the basis of my hunch/hunches.

Thanks for your consideration,

Rory 

This is still one of my favorite hymns.

 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

When I first discovered the Book of Mormon I was so naive that I thought entire congregations would be converted and baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints as their preachers, priests and members discovered the Book of Mormon.

I think it is a tool, one by which God calls his people together, to become Zion. At least that is what it is for me, and what I have found to be true. 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

From the article it looks like they knew of the Moroni connection. They talked to the artist about it. 

This was something that wasn't entirely clear from the article. Initially, the publisher claimed that the angel was never represented as being any particular angel, but then someone found a Facebook post of the author's where he allegedly identifies the angel (or, perhaps it was a series of angel portraits) as being based on Moroni. I'm not on Facebook, so I wasn't able to follow the link to try and figure out the timeline. The person who discovered the Facebook post seemed to believe that both the publisher and the artist may have been lying, but I'm not sure what that opinion is being based upon.

Either way, this whole kerfuffle has produced at least one real positive for me personally: I've discovered another artist who I enjoy, and I learned that he has an exhibition showing here locally in Dallas through the end of the year, which I now plan on taking time to go see.

This is like the Friday-est Thursday ever!  

 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

So I don’t have to read every link, please tell me where the “backlash” was coming from?

Practicing Catholics. 

 

Quote

I hope not from us, as I think that (to coin a phrase), “Imitation is the highest form of flattery”, or so I think it goes.

To my knowledge, no Latter-day Saints have a problem with it whatsoever - apparently not even the one who actually created the painting to begin with. 

 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What did the angel symbol “get the boot” from?

Quite a few things. 

In the Gospel Library app, an icon of the angel Moroni used to appear in the upper-left corner of the app whenever it was 'loading' something. 

After the change, I noticed that it would still pop up briefly from time to time for only a moment before being hidden. In other words, rather than actually getting rid of it or changing it, the developers decided to just 'hide' it instead. But, if you have got an older phone or a bad data connection you can still get him to pop up briefly - kind of like whack-a-mole. I can't bring myself to email in a bug report for that though - they are obviously aware of it, and I kind of like that it's still there, kind of like an Easter egg.  

 

[strappinglad]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

was built in a neoclassical style suggestive of the Temple in Jerusalem."

It is my understanding that the person who designed the furnishings and fixtures for the Cardston temple had studied with Frank Lloyd Wright. I have a book on the works of FLW and there are many similarities .