Book of Mormon Lands in America

[Robert F. Smith]

54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my.  You are being childish, and have no credibility whatsoever. 

You are speaking to Robert about Jack Welch?

Oy Vey!

Yep, "Burnside" (aka Mac) is back in the form of his sockpuppet "RLDS Fraud Map," and spreading his slime as usual.  Last time, one of the Mods warned him: “You need to use more civility in your posting if you wish to post on this board.”

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yep, "Burnside" (aka Mac) is back in the form of his sockpuppet "RLDS Fraud Map," and spreading his slime as usual.  Last time, one of the Mods warned him: “You need to use more civility in your posting if you wish to post on this board.”

《Facepalm》

I should have seen that instantly!

[Jracforr]

On 8/26/2020 at 11:42 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Doesn’t really matter which location seems likeliest to you or me, as that they are offered with a modicum of factual basis.  Maps are helpful..........

Three witnesses establish the heartland of Book of Mormon Civilization, and they are all geographic witnesses.

A. Narrow passage of land at border of Bountiful and Desolation ,Alma 63:5, 52:9, Mormon 3:5. 
This is located at the narrow passage on the Western side of Lake Nicaragua and the Pacific Ocean. 
B. Narrow neck of land at the border of Bountiful and Desolation, which takes a day and a half to cross, Alma 22:32. This is located at the Eastern side of Lake Nicaragua and the Caribbean Sea 

C. Narrow neck of land at border of Zarahemla and Bountiful, which takes a day to cross, is located where the Panama Canal now exist. These three references,are as factual and explicit, as can be gleaned from the Book of Mormon. 
While these “three witnesses” define the Nephite Hartlands, it does not confine Nephite activity exclusively to this region, as numerous waves of migration to the North are noted in the BOM.

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Jracforr said:

C. Narrow neck of land at border of Zarahemla and Bountiful, which takes a day to cross, is located where the Panama Canal now exist. 

Only if you're Superman.  Forty miles of malarial jungle with no paths.  Can't be done.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Jracforr said:

Three witnesses establish the heartland of Book of Mormon Civilization, and they are all geographic witnesses.

A. Narrow passage of land at border of Bountiful and Desolation ,Alma 63:5, 52:9, Mormon 3:5. 
This is located at the narrow passage on the Western side of Lake Nicaragua and the Pacific Ocean. 
B. Narrow neck of land at the border of Bountiful and Desolation, which takes a day and a half to cross, Alma 22:32. This is located at the Eastern side of Lake Nicaragua and the Caribbean Sea 

C. Narrow neck of land at border of Zarahemla and Bountiful, which takes a day to cross, is located where the Panama Canal now exist. These three references,are as factual and explicit, as can be gleaned from the Book of Mormon. 
While these “three witnesses” define the Nephite Hartlands, it does not confine Nephite activity exclusively to this region, as numerous waves of migration to the North are noted in the BOM.......................

You provide only one distance reference in your citations.  You'll find many more listed in John L. Sorenson, Mormon's Map, and all of them make your suggestions impossible.  Any applicable geography must cohere with the actual distances and directions mentioned in the BofM.

[Jracforr]

10 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Only if you're Superman.  Forty miles of malarial jungle with no paths.  Can't be done.

A marathon of just over 20 miles is completed in a few hours and you don’t think 40 or 50 miles can be covered in a day .

[Jracforr]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You provide only one distance reference in your citations.  You'll find many more listed in John L. Sorenson, Mormon's Map, and all of them make your suggestions impossible.  Any applicable geography must cohere with the actual distances and directions mentioned in the BofM.

The two distance references given, of lands taking a day, and a day and a half to cross in the Book of Mormon, along with the three geographic features, are the only concrete evidences given to determine the boundaries of the Nephite heartland. All other “evidences” are largely based on speculation and conjecture, which may or may not be accurate. While these speculative evidences can be informative, they are only needed to establish internal features and not land boundaries.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Jracforr said:

The two distance references given, of lands taking a day, and a day and a half to cross in the Book of Mormon, along with the three geographic features, are the only concrete evidences given to determine the boundaries of the Nephite heartland. All other “evidences” are largely based on speculation and conjecture, which may or may not be accurate. While these speculative evidences can be informative, they are only needed to establish internal features and not land boundaries.

The BofM text itself contradicts you.  There is nothing speculative in the number of days it takes to go from X to Y.  When NASA engineers calculate the number of days or hours it takes to get an Apollo capsule to the Moon and back, it is not speculative.  When a bus, train, or plane leaves Los Angeles to go to New York City, there is nothing conjectural about how much time it will take in each case, and the schedules are published and available.  Such figures do set the boundaries of a region or country, and such boundaries must cohere with the distance/time figures.  It is not optional.

The interlocking distance/time references in the BofM include the following crucial citations:

1.  The journeys of Alma the Younger’s people (Mosiah 18:1–7, 31–34; 23:1–3, 25–26; 24:18–25)
2.  Limhi’s explorers’ expedition to the land northward (Mosiah 8:7–9; 21:25–27)
3.  Movements in the Amlicite war (Alma 2)
4.  Alma the Younger’s circuit of cities preaching repentance (Alma 5–15)
5.  The wars in the borders by the east sea and in the southwest quarter (Alma 43–62:42)
6.  The land of Nephi as described in the Zeniffite account and that of the sons of Mosiah II (Mosiah 7–22; Alma 17–26)
7.  The last wars between Nephites and Lamanites (Mormon 2–6)

Ignoring them, as you do, shows disrespect for the text itself.  Once you examine them carefully, you will see that the BofM lands are no larger in extent than the ancient Israelite patrimony (Palestine).  Unless you understand that at the outset, your mistakes will be legion.

[Jracforr]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The BofM text itself contradicts you.  There is nothing speculative in the number of days it takes to go from X to Y.  When NASA engineers calculate the number of days or hours it takes to get an Apollo capsule to the Moon and back, it is not speculative.  When a bus, train, or plane leaves Los Angeles to go to New York City, there is nothing conjectural about how much time it will take in each case, and the schedules are published and available.  Such figures do set the boundaries of a region or country, and such boundaries must cohere with the distance/time figures.  

WHEN THE LOCATION OF TWO OBJECTS ARE KNOWN, speculation and conjecture are not needed to calculate time and distance, however when they are not known or geographically identified, ascertaining time and distance for travel is only arrived at by speculation and conjecture as is the case here. While I do not wish to question the accuracy of the internal outlay of the land , identified in that manner ,  I will adhere to the three Geographic Features given, and the two distances, travelled in a day, and a day and a half, for my points of references, in determining the boundaries of the land. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Jracforr

[Bob Crockett]

4 hours ago, Jracforr said:

A marathon of just over 20 miles is completed in a few hours and you don’t think 40 or 50 miles can be covered in a day .

Nope.  Not where there is no path, lots of swamps and rivers.  The pioneers often took one full day to cross one river. 

[Jracforr]

If the Nephites said it took a day to cross the land, it was not in the state of ruin, and covered by Jungle as much of Central America now is . Your Book of Mormon makes that quite clear.

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, Jracforr said:

WHEN THE LOCATION OF TWO OBJECTS ARE KNOWN, speculation and conjecture are not needed to calculate time and distance, however when they are not known or geographically identified, ascertaining time and distance for travel is only arrived at by speculation and conjecture as is the case here. While I do not which to question the accuracy of the internal outlay of the land , identified in that manner ,  I will adhere to the three Geographic Features given, and the two distances, travelled in a day, and a day and a half, for my points of references, in determining the boundaries of the land. 

You clearly have not bothered to read the BofM text.  Otherwise you would not speak so cavalierly about loci.  We do not need to know where any particular locus is in order to tell that the time given to trek from point A to point B is powerfully delimiting.

Mosiah 7:4-5, "they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander. And when they had wandered forty days they came to a hill, which is north of the land of Shilom"

Mosiah 9:4,6, "after many days’ wandering in the wilderness we pitched our tents in the place where our brethren were slain, which was near to the land of our fathers. And it came to pass that I went again with four of my men into the city, in unto the king, that I might know of the disposition of the king, and that I might know if I might go in with my people and possess the land in peace. And I went in unto the king, and he covenanted with me that I might possess the land of Lehi-Nephi, and the land of Shilom."

Mosiah 18:4-7, "a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts. Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king. And it came to pass that as many as believed him went thither to hear his words. And it came to pass after many days there were a goodly number gathered together at the place of Mormon, to hear the words of Alma."

 

Mosiah 20:1-5, "a place in Shemlon where the daughters of the Lamanites did gather themselves together to sing, and to dance, and to make themselves merry. And it came to pass that there was one day a small number of them gathered together to sing and to dance. And now the priests of king Noah, being ashamed to return to the city of Nephi, yea, and also fearing that the people would slay them, therefore they durst not return to their wives and their children. And having tarried in the wilderness, and having discovered the daughters of the Lamanites, they laid and watched them; And when there were but few of them gathered together to dance, they came forth out of their secret places and took them and carried them into the wilderness; yea, twenty and four of the daughters of the Lamanites they carried into the wilderness."

Mosiah 22:13,16, "And after being many days in the wilderness they arrived in the land of Zarahemla, and joined Mosiah’s people, and became his subjects.......[Lamanites] had pursued them two days, they could no longer follow their tracks; therefore they were lost in the wilderness."

Mosiah 23:3 "eight days’ journey into the wilderness."  24:20,25, "Alma and his people departed into the wilderness; and when they had traveled all day they pitched their tents in a valley, and they called the valley Alma, because he led their way in the wilderness....After they had been in the wilderness twelve days they arrived in the land of Zarahemla; and king Mosiah did also receive them with joy."

Alma 2:17,19-20,23-26, "And they began to slay the Amlicites upon the hill east of Sidon.....the Nephites did pursue the Amlicites all that day,....when Alma could pursue the Amlicites no longer he caused that his people should pitch their tents in the valley of Gideon, the valley being called after that Gideon who was slain by the hand of Nehor [Alma 6:7],....on the morrow they returned into the camp of the Nephites in great haste, being greatly astonished, and struck with much fear, saying: Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them; And they are upon our brethren in that land; and they are fleeing before them with their flocks, and their wives, and their children, towards our city; and except we make haste they obtain possession of our city, and our fathers, and our wives, and our children be slain. And it came to pass that the people of Nephi took their tents, and departed out of the valley of Gideon towards their city, which was the city of Zarahemla."

Alma 8:1-8, "Alma returned from the land of Gideon, after having taught the people of Gideon many things ............, yea, he returned to his own house at Zarahemla to rest himself from the labors which he had performed. And thus ended the ninth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.  And it came to pass in the commencement of the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, that Alma departed from thence and took his journey over into the land of Melek, on the west of the river Sidon, on the west by the borders of the wilderness. And he began to teach the people in the land of Melek ..........And it came to pass that the people came to him throughout all the borders of the land which was by the wilderness side........So that when he had finished his work at Melek he departed thence, and traveled three days’ journey on the north of the land of Melek; and he came to a city which was called Ammonihah. ...... And it came to pass that when Alma had come to the city of Ammonihah he began to preach the word of God unto them."

These are merely a few samples.  But notice how the distances and loci are tightly tied together, just as they are in the Bible account of the Land of Israel.  Your attempt to escape from the implications is astonishing and unproductive.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Bob Crockett]

5 hours ago, Jracforr said:

If the Nephites said it took a day to cross the land, it was not in the state of ruin, and covered by Jungle as much of Central America now is . Your Book of Mormon makes that quite clear.

Not only is it covered by jungle, but by impenetrable swamps, rivers and deadly malaria.   The French lost 20,000 workers trying to dig a canal there. 

[RevTestament]

13 hours ago, Jracforr said:

The two distance references given, of lands taking a day, and a day and a half to cross in the Book of Mormon, along with the three geographic features, are the only concrete evidences given to determine the boundaries of the Nephite heartland. All other “evidences” are largely based on speculation and conjecture, which may or may not be accurate. While these speculative evidences can be informative, they are only needed to establish internal features and not land boundaries.

 

9 hours ago, Jracforr said:

If the Nephites said it took a day to cross the land, it was not in the state of ruin, and covered by Jungle as much of Central America now is . Your Book of Mormon makes that quite clear.

Bob is quite right. It cannot be done unless, one says one of the lakes is one of the seas of the text - that is certainly possible, but then it becomes impossible to really follow the east-west orientation described in the text. It ends up being a north and south orientation. To my knowledge no one has ever crossed the entire isthmus in a day and half on foot. Even a marathoner - rather than the typical Nephite. It is a mountainous terrain covered by jungle. The Book of Mormon also says there was a "line" that they presumably followed. Nothing like that in Panama. Even to this day I challenge you to do it in a day and half - good luck. So to say that is the place ignores the text. I believe the line was a ridge, that they could walk along. That actually makes sense, and follows the text. You seem to ignore that while arguing for the absurd fringe.

[mrmarklin]

You all realize, of course, that in the BoM when wilderness is mentioned, it does not refer to jungle.  Right?

Another reason not to buy into the Mesoamerican theme. 

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

You all realize, of course, that in the BoM when wilderness is mentioned, it does not refer to jungle.  Right?

Another reason not to buy into the Mesoamerican theme. 

Can you give us a good reason to "buy into" your definition of "wilderness"?

From the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

Quote

WILDERNESS, noun [from wild.]

1. A desert; a tract of land or region uncultivated and uninhabited by human beings, whether a forest or a wide barren plain. In the United States, it is applied only to a forest. In Scripture, it is applied frequently to the deserts of Arabia. The Israelites wandered int he wilderness forty years.

2. The ocean.

The watry wilderness yields no supply.

3. A state of disorder. [Not in use.]

4. A wood in a garden, resembling a forest.

According to the United States definition, it has to refer to a forest.  Next, look up the word "jungle".

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Can you give us a good reason to "buy into" your definition of "wilderness"?

From the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

According to the United States definition, it has to refer to a forest.  Next, look up the word "jungle".

In the OT, wilderness usually refers to mostly uninhabited desert terrain rather than jungle - just sayin.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

You all realize, of course, that in the BoM when wilderness is mentioned, it does not refer to jungle.  Right?

Another reason not to buy into the Mesoamerican theme. 

Why does the second follow from the first?  Could not jungle be one type of wilderness?  Given the limited vocabulary of the Book of Mormon, words may have larger ranges they cover. 
 

Here is a list of the words used in the Book of Mormon. What word used works better for “jungle” than “wilderness” in your opinion?

https://gospelcougar.blogspot.com/2007/12/word-frequency-in-book-of-mormon.html?m=1

Edited September 7, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

In the OT, wilderness usually refers to mostly uninhabited desert terrain rather than jungle - just sayin.

Is there any jungle in the areas of the OT to refer to and if so, how is it referred to?

[Jracforr]

At this rate, we all have to agree to disagree, each one leaving the discussion with the opinion he brought forward initially.

[mrmarklin]

One example is that the Spanish translation of the BoM translates wilderness as desert. Like the OT. This translation is Scripture. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

One example is that the Spanish translation of the BoM translates wilderness as desert. Like the OT. This translation is Scripture. 

You believe all translations of scripture produce literal, precise truth?

[mrmarklin]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

You believe all translations of scripture produce literal, precise truth?

I was just sayin’.      🙂

Edited September 7, 2020 by mrmarklin

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

One example is that the Spanish translation of the BoM translates wilderness as desert. Like the OT. This translation is Scripture. 

I have heard of and seen too many errors in Book of Mormon and D&C translations to believe they are infallible.