Book of Mormon Lands in America

[Jracforr]

What might be considered an over simplification of a complex problem may
 help to explain the pattern of Nephite Civilization in the  past. A  simplified version of Colonial North America is  “ Copied” to Central America and Mexico, to show what might have transpired in that region . While there are many variables in places of first landing and exploration, the end result over time  may have been similar, as both the Nephites and the English are thought to be of the House of Joseph. Mexico, with the exception of the Yucatán, would be  Central America’s equivalent of Canada, while the American Colonial States, would equate to the following Central American region. 
 New England - Yucatán 

New York - Guatemala 

Pennsylvania - Honduras 

Virginia - Nicaragua 

North Carolina - Costa Rica 

Georgia  - Panama. 
The method of Colonization was different for Nephites and English, as the Nephites  established their first settlements in the Equivalent of Georgia - Panama, while the the English first settled in Virginia - Nicaragua. Without having to go over the detailed pattern of settlement, we can see that over time New York / Guatemala, could have become a major commercial centers for both Civilizations, as happened in the US, while the principal administrative center differ for the Nephites at Panama- Georgia and for the English, at Virginia - Nicaragua. While the English created a major cultural  region in New England - Yucatán, the Book of Mormon seem not to have any such Cultural Center for the Nephites, in the far North of the Land .  Over their Millennial existence in the land, the Nephites did accomplish considerable more than is briefly recorded in the Book of Mormon, as it states, therefore many pieces of the Nephite’s geographic puzzle remain  missing.  The probability exists that the Book of Mormon, is primarily a record of the Southern Nephite States and the record of the Northern States are not included. 
                     Georgia - Land of Nephi 

                     South Carolina - Zarahemla 

                     North Carolina - Bountiful 

                     Virginia - Land Desolation  

The Book of Mormon can be regarded as a “ Time Capsule “ from the Ancient World, to the inhabitants of the American South. All the admonition and warnings, are as relevant to this region today, as when they were previously given. The LDS Church can help these regional states to understand what the future hold, if Pride and Vanity dictates their future choices, 400 years after their ancestor’s arrival.
 

[Robert F. Smith]

Very strange.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Jracforr said:

What might be considered an over simplification of a complex problem may
 help to explain the pattern of Nephite Civilization in the  past. A  simplified version of Colonial North America is  “ Copied” to Central America and Mexico, to show what might have transpired in that region . While there are many variables in places of first landing and exploration, the end result over time  may have been similar, as both the Nephites and the English are thought to be of the House of Joseph. Mexico, with the exception of the Yucatán, would be  Central America’s equivalent of Canada, while the American Colonial States, would equate to the following Central American region. 
 New England - Yucatán 

New York - Guatemala 

Pennsylvania - Honduras 

Virginia - Nicaragua 

North Carolina - Costa Rica 

Georgia  - Panama. 
The method of Colonization was different for Nephites and English, as the Nephites  established their first settlements in the Equivalent of Georgia - Panama, while the the English first settled in Virginia - Nicaragua. Without having to go over the detailed pattern of settlement, we can see that over time New York / Guatemala, could have become a major commercial centers for both Civilizations, as happened in the US, while the principal administrative center differ for the Nephites at Panama- Georgia and for the English, at Virginia - Nicaragua. While the English created a major cultural  region in New England - Yucatán, the Book of Mormon seem not to have any such Cultural Center for the Nephites, in the far North of the Land .  Over their Millennial existence in the land, the Nephites did accomplish considerable more than is briefly recorded in the Book of Mormon, as it states, therefore many pieces of the Nephite’s geographic puzzle remain  missing.  The probability exists that the Book of Mormon, is primarily a record of the Southern Nephite States and the record of the Northern States are not included. 
                     Georgia - Land of Nephi 

                     South Carolina - Zarahemla 

                     North Carolina - Bountiful 

                     Virginia - Land Desolation  

The Book of Mormon can be regarded as a “ Time Capsule “ from the Ancient World, to the inhabitants of the American South. All the admonition and warnings, are as relevant to this region today, as when they were previously given. The LDS Church can help these regional states to understand what the future hold, if Pride and Vanity dictates their future choices, 400 years after their ancestor’s arrival.
 

As I told you before there are people here who have studied BOM geography for their entire lives- there are competing schools of BOM geography of which you do not seem to be aware.

I would suggest you search BOM geography on this board and read up on it.

It is as if you arrive here completely naive of all these matters- which is fine!  We all get to start somewhere, but it is necessary in any field to know what came before your ideas came to you.

Best wishes, but do some studying before you post if you want to have any credibility here.

Please take this as "tough love".   Someone has to say it!

[strappinglad]

Re : the title of this thread. Everyone knows where the BoM landed, the question has always been," where did it take off from?" 

[mrmarklin]

In my mind the case for a US based Nephite civilization is very weak, because When Europeans arrived the natives were illiterate savages with no writing abilities and divided into a bunch of warring tribes. 
 

South or Central America make a better case, as there were fairly cultured and high civilizations with methods to record things When the Europeans arrived. Presumably, these could be descended from the even higher Nephites. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As I told you before there are people here who have studied BOM geography for their entire lives- there are competing schools of BOM geography of which you do not seem to be aware.

I would suggest you search BOM geography on this board and read up on it.

It is as if you arrive here completely naive of all these matters- which is fine!  We all get to start somewhere, but it is necessary in any field to know what came before your ideas came to you.

Best wishes, but do some studying before you post if you want to have any credibility here.

Please take this as "tough love".   Someone has to say it!

Well, there are people that do not believe Joseph Smith lived polygamy either, in fact it's our British poster, or the one with a British flag as their avatar. And some will not believe that the BoM lands were anywhere but the New York area. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Well, there are people that do not believe Joseph Smith lived polygamy either, in fact it's our British poster, or the one with a British flag as their avatar. And some will not believe that the BoM lands were anywhere but the New York area. 

That's fine but they have scholarly research to back it up, not just a map with names pasted to it.  

They have published in journals and have had peer review to do so.  They have researched languages and cultures of the people looking for "fits".

I don't see that here.

If our friend has that data, let him publish it in a peer-reviewed journal, and THEN he will have something.  Let him get a Phd in the field - perhaps he has one, but as Bob S. alluded, his position seems out of "left field"

When I joined the church I myself was very naive about these issues like BOM geography. 

 

[mfbukowski]

I think that this stuff is all mixed in here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism#:~:text=biblical%20patriarch%2C%20Jacob.-,Britain%20and%20the%20United%20States%20are%20the%20inheritors%20of%20Jacob's,the%20United%20States%20of%20America.

Quote

 

British Israelism (also called Anglo-Israelism) is a pseudoarchaeological belief that the people of the British Isles are "genetically, racially, and linguistically the direct descendants" of the Ten Lost Tribes of ancient Israel.[1] With roots in the 16th century, British Israelism was inspired by several 19th century English writings such as John Wilson's 1840 Our Israelitish Origin.[2] Numerous British Israelite organisations were set up throughout the British Empire as well as in America from the 1870s onwards; a number of these organisations are independently active as of the early 21st century. In America, the idea gave rise to the Christian Identity movement.

The central tenets of British Israelism have been refuted by evidence from modern archaeological,[3] ethnological,[4] genetic,[citation needed] and linguistic research.[5][6]:33–34

 

Quote

Britain and the United States are the inheritors of Jacob's birthright. A commonly found British-Israel doctrine is that the Tribe of Ephraim and the Tribe of Manasseh can be identified as modern day Britain and the United States of America.

And then there is the Stone of Scone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone

Edited August 26, 2020 by mfbukowski

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And then there is the Stone of Scone

I could go for a scone right about now.

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, there are people that do not believe Joseph Smith lived polygamy either, in fact it's our British poster, or the one with a British flag as their avatar. And some will not believe that the BoM lands were anywhere but the New York area. 

Such lapses of awareness are truly unfortunate. 

 

7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

In my mind the case for a US based Nephite civilization is very weak, because When Europeans arrived the natives were illiterate savages with no writing abilities and divided into a bunch of warring tribes. 
 

South or Central America make a better case, as there were fairly cultured and high civilizations with methods to record things When the Europeans arrived. Presumably, these could be descended from the even higher Nephites. 

I don't read Jracforr as proposing a North American geography. He says in his OP that he views Costa Rica, Panama, and Nicaragua as locations where the Book of Mormon took place. Rather, he's saying that the Nephite settlement followed similar patterns as the European settlement of North America and represents a model for such.

However, @Jracforr, I have to push back on a couple of points. It's true that the land northward gets relatively short shrift in the Book of Mormon. However, I would argue that that is because it was never the heartland of Nephite civilization like Zarahemla was. We only see signs of real Nephite migration to the land northward in Alma, 500 years after the Lehite landing and 100 years into the unified Nephite-Mulekite state. Zarahemla remained the center of gravity until the Nephites lost it only a few decades before their final destruction. The line from Bountiful to Zarahemla was the Nephite heartland, as illustrated by the fact that the Nephites hunkered down to defend that land during the Gadianton siege in 3 Nephi. We only really get the names of cities in the land northward as they are in the process of being destroyed by the Lamanites. I would argue that Zarahemla and Bountiful and Ammonihah and such are more analogous to New York and Philadelphia and Boston than they are to Atlanta and Richmond and Raleigh. The land northward was the less-relevant part of the country, not the land southward. 

[Jracforr]

“. I would argue that Zarahemla and Bountiful and Ammonihah and such are more analogous to New York and Philadelphia and Boston than they are to Atlanta and Richmond and Raleigh. The land northward was the less-relevant part of the country, not the land southward. “ 

The land Northward was occupied by Ephraimites, a people likened unto the Yankee Americans, while the South was dominated by Nephites from the tribe of Manasseh. It is important that the Geographic distinction be maintained despite the analogy, so that the important lessons to be learned from the Book of Mormon, is more clearly understood. The BOM is Southern Scriptures while the Doctrine and Covenants is Northern Scriptures.

[Jracforr]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As I told you before there are people here who have studied BOM geography for their entire lives- there are competing schools of BOM geography of which you do not seem to be aware.

I would suggest you search BOM geography on this board and read up on it.

It is as if you arrive here completely naive of all these matters- which is fine!  We all get to start somewhere, but it is necessary in any field to know what came before your ideas came to you.

Best wishes, but do some studying before you post if you want to have any credibility here.

Please take this as "tough love".   Someone has to say it!

Thanks for your advice / warning, I am fully aware of the many theories surrounding the Book of Mormon Geography, and the likely resistance that would arise from any contrary view. However this is a discussion board, so I will do what I have to do and let the consequence follow.

[CV75]

"I'm gonna take the midnight train to Zarahemla..." -- The Gladis-Antonite and the Pips

"Rainy Night in Zarahemla" -- Brooktonbentum

"The Night the Lights Went Out in Zarahemla (In the Year 34, 34)" -- Phykki Liahonrance

Edited August 26, 2020 by CV75

[Bob Crockett]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

They have published in journals and have had peer review to do so. 

. . . 

 

CFR

[Ahab]

This stuff must be over my head because it doesn't fit under my head.  But I do have some good feelings about "Guatemala"

[Freedom]

12 hours ago, Jracforr said:

“. I would argue that Zarahemla and Bountiful and Ammonihah and such are more analogous to New York and Philadelphia and Boston than they are to Atlanta and Richmond and Raleigh. The land northward was the less-relevant part of the country, not the land southward. “ 

The land Northward was occupied by Ephraimites, a people likened unto the Yankee Americans, while the South was dominated by Nephites from the tribe of Manasseh. It is important that the Geographic distinction be maintained despite the analogy, so that the important lessons to be learned from the Book of Mormon, is more clearly understood. The BOM is Southern Scriptures while the Doctrine and Covenants is Northern Scriptures.

You would have to provide some scriptural and anthropological support for this claim. What exactly is 'southern scripture'? Is there a set criteria?

[mrmarklin]

On 8/25/2020 at 3:33 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Very strange.

Actually, his postulation is as good as any. Until the inn is discovered with the sign that states “Nephi slept here”, we simply don’t know where BoM lands are. 
I like South America As the location. 
 

But considering where the plates were found, it’s a tough one.  
 

[Robert F. Smith]

21 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Actually, his postulation is as good as any.

What I find very strange is that his postulation is incoherent.  I cannot make head or tail of it.  I don't mind odd postulates so much as I object to incoherent ones.  Perhaps he could do a better job of formulating his claim, whatever it is.

21 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Until the inn is discovered with the sign that states “Nephi slept here”, we simply don’t know where BoM lands are. 

Archeologists are not so much concerned with a sign saying "Jesus was born here," or the like, as they are in reconstructing an overall geographic correlation.  After that, even if there are assertions that Jesus was born in Nazareth, or Jesus was born in Bethlehem, or Jesus was born in the Land of Jerusalem, at least we have some idea what the content of the claim is.

21 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I like South America As the location.
But considering where the plates were found, it’s a tough one.

Doesn't really matter which location seems likeliest to you or me, as that they are offered with a modicum of factual basis.  Maps are helpful, and one can find a number of them offered at https://bookofmormon.online/map/malay

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What I find very strange is that his postulation is incoherent.  I cannot make head or tail of it.  I don't mind odd postulates so much as I object to incoherent ones.  Perhaps he could do a better job of formulating his claim, whatever it is.

Archeologists are not so much concerned with a sign saying "Jesus was born here," or the like, as they are in reconstructing an overall geographic correlation.  After that, even if there are assertions that Jesus was born in Nazareth, or Jesus was born in Bethlehem, or Jesus was born in the Land of Jerusalem, at least we have some idea what the content of the claim is.

Doesn't really matter which location seems likeliest to you or me, as that they are offered with a modicum of factual basis.  Maps are helpful, and one can find a number of them offered at https://bookofmormon.online/map/malay

I think he is saying the pattern of civilization is the same for North America and mesoamerica and or Central America .

[Robert F. Smith]

38 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I think he is saying the pattern of civilization is the same for North America and mesoamerica and or Central America .

Maybe so, but that is not clear from his brief and disorganized comments.  Perhaps he could map it out for us.  Perhaps you could.

[Jracforr]

10 hours ago, Freedom said:

You would have to provide some scriptural and anthropological support for this claim. What exactly is 'southern scripture'? Is there a set criteria?

The term “Southern Scriptures “  is actually in reference to the Geographic Location where the admonitions and warnings of the Scripture is given.  The content of the Book of Mormon was addressed to the Southern Tribes  in Central America, identifying specific locations of the wars they fought, the places of refuge they sought, the region they were finally exterminated in , the nature of their Tribal dispute and the different ethnicities among whom they live. 
Transposing the Geographic divisions of Central America onto that of North America, places the drama of the Book of Mormon, onto the Southern States of the US, a region with mix ethnicities, a history of slavery, and divisions based on color and race. The Book of Mormon is therefore ideally suited to be termed “ Southern Scriptures “, and used to warn and admonish, this society which replicates both geographically and socially,  the conditions recorded in it’s ancient pages.

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, Jracforr said:

Transposing the Geographic divisions of Central America onto that of North America, places the drama of the Book of Mormon, onto the Southern States of the US, a region with mix ethnicities,

There is also a northern and southern Europe.  A northern and southern Africa, etc.  I don't see a correlation.

[Jracforr]

I realize I have created more questions than answers for some viewers, I will in the future provide two maps, one each of North and Central America, and cross reference them to the Book of Mormon Lands.  Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that the events in the Book of Mormon occurred in North America, the comparison is for geographic references only, because the LDS are “ likened unto Nephites.“

[Jracforr]

13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

There is also a northern and southern Europe.  A northern and southern Africa, etc.  I don't see a correlation.

Yes there would be correlation with both Europe and Africa if you so choose, placing the Book of Mormon events in Italy, if compared with Europe and South Africa if you choose to relate it to Africa, in fact the Protestants in South Africa could be considered modern Nephites, strange but true. 
The point of all this, is that the World’s Physical and Human Geography is determined by law,  therefore when and where we rise and fall is predetermined, hence the admonition , Do unto others as you would have done unto you .........

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, RLDS Fraud Map said:

You’re very strange.

How’s that RLDS Fraud of a Two-Cumorah Mesoamerica Geography Theory for The Book of Mormon, working out for you?

https://nebula.wsimg.com/0cfb97baa9e96834e62ec953d58c5ff4?AccessKeyId=AA525AED21BB7CA23BE6&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

https://nebula.wsimg.com/31dc2f3e16429c4d7ec764c7d0fa1e31?AccessKeyId=AA525AED21BB7CA23BE6&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

RLDS Shirley Heater, the Queztal Codex author, is also mentioned as a contributor at Kirk Magelby’s BMAF, the legal entity for BookofMormonCentral run by him and Jack Welch.

https://www.bomf.org/quetzal-codex.html

http://www.bmaf.org/node/237

You’re in cahoots with a bunch of lying Utah members, promoting this fake RLDS Two-Cumorah crap, while begging for donations with a PayPal button at BookofMormonCentral, and Dr. Daniel Peterson’s Interpreter Foundation and FairMormon.

Hey everybody! Send them money!

Jack Welch wants you to know Oliver Cowdery was a liar!

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/how-are-oliver-cowderys-messenger-and-advocate-letters-to-be-understood-and-used

 

Oh my.  You are being childish, and have no credibility whatsoever. 

You are speaking to Robert about Jack Welch?

Oy Vey!

Edited August 30, 2020 by mfbukowski

[rodheadlee]

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my.  You are being childish, and have no credibility whatsoever. 

You are speaking to Robert about Jack Welch?

Oy Vey

He is a Sock puppet.

Edited August 30, 2020 by rodheadlee