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Ancient Divine Assembly/Council/Court Psalms 82


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    I have been having a discussion with a anti LDS on a LDS - Christian, Facebook page. and he is stating that satan and Jesus cannot be brothers due to Jesus creating satan [which from that point of view makes Jesus satan's father from my lights] and he has criticized LDS missionaries regarding Psalms 82 as "gods" which from his lights is "human judges". I will be getting back to him next week concerning this. Any Scholarly non LDS Scholarly link I can share with him regarding Psalms 82 ?. Thank you all in advance. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine/Washing My Garment In His Blood/In His Eternal Debt/Grace/He Died To Make Man Holy, it's not just 6 words to a song, it has Eternal meaning.

Edited by Anakin7
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I would focus on telling him about the grand council meeting we all attended in heaven before we came down here, when our Father proposed his plan to us, and how both Jesus and Satan/Lucifer responded.

Trying to persuade him to believe something in particular would probably not be the best to go about trying to teach him.  Just tell him what you know, as much as he wants to hear what you know, without trying to persuade him.

I've mellowed as I've gotten older and I find this approach works a lot better for me and whoever I am talking to, helping both us to feel more comfortable when talking with each other.

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 Ahab, thanks but that does not work with him. Hard core anti, sees no relationship of Christ Jesus and satan as brothers due to Jesus creating satan. Considers Jesus The "I AM",  "Yahweh", "creator of the Universe" [ Oh thats right we believe that to ! ] . Anyway still looking for Psalms 82 references - Books/Journal/Papers/Articles regarding "gods" reading verses "judges" reading. True Grace To all.

Edited by Anakin7
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1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

    I have been having a discussion with a anti LDS on a LDS - Christian, Facebook page. and he is stating that satan and Jesus cannot be brothers due to Jesus creating satan [which from that point of view makes Jesus satan's father from my lights] and he has criticized LDS missionaries regarding Psalms 82 as "gods" which from his lights is "human judges". I will be getting back to him next week concerning this. Any Scholarly non LDS Scholarly link I can share with him regarding Psalms 82 ?. Thank you all in advance. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine/Washing My Garment In His Blood/In His Eternal Debt/Grace/He Died To Make Man Holy, it's not just 6 words to a song, it has Eternal meaning.

Like biblical Mt afon (Mt Olympus), the cosmic mountain of God is the location of the Divine Council and eschatological Banquet of Salvation[1]   Isaiah 14:12-15,

Quote

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north [afon]:  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

[1] E. T. Mullen, Jr., The Assembly of the Gods, Harvard Semitic Monograph 24 (Scholars Press, 1980), 150-158; R. J. Clifford, The Cosmic Mountain in Canaan and in the OT (1972); cf. LDS Gospel Topics section online at https://www.lds.org/topics/council-in-heaven?lang=eng ; see also Stephen O. Smoot, “The Divine Council in the Hebrew Bible and the Book of Mormon,” Studia Antiqua 12/2 (Fall 2013): 1–18, online at https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1211&context=studiaantiqua .

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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I understand that Daniel C. Peterson has papers on the Divine Council  in regards tp Psalms 82 and John 10:34-35 anyone have a link to his works on this ?. Thank you.

 

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1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

I understand that Daniel C. Peterson has papers on the Divine Council  in regards tp Psalms 82 and John 10:34-35 anyone have a link to his works on this ?. Thank you.

 

Here's the link:

Daniel C. Peterson:  Ye Are Gods:  Psalm 82 and John 10 as Witness to the Divine Nature of Humankind

And this article by Daniel O. McClellan (who visits these boards) is also relevant:   Psalm 82 in Contemporary Latter-day Saint Tradition.

 

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13 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    I have been having a discussion with a anti LDS on a LDS - Christian, Facebook page. and he is stating that satan and Jesus cannot be brothers due to Jesus creating satan [which from that point of view makes Jesus satan's father from my lights] and he has criticized LDS missionaries regarding Psalms 82 as "gods" which from his lights is "human judges". I will be getting back to him next week concerning this. Any Scholarly non LDS Scholarly link I can share with him regarding Psalms 82 ?. Thank you all in advance. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine/Washing My Garment In His Blood/In His Eternal Debt/Grace/He Died To Make Man Holy, it's not just 6 words to a song, it has Eternal meaning.

I have published a paper on Psalm 82 in a leading non-LDS scholarly journal that you're welcome to pass along (you can access it here). In terms of other non-LDS scholarship that points out that it cannot refer to human judges, there are a number of scholarly books and articles I could point you to, but I don't know that you'll have easy access to them. You're welcome to message me and I can provide a few PDFs, but I also don't want to overwhelm you with a bunch of technical publications that your acquaintance isn't going to bother reading. 

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15 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    I have been having a discussion with a anti LDS on a LDS - Christian, Facebook page. and he is stating that satan and Jesus cannot be brothers due to Jesus creating satan [which from that point of view makes Jesus satan's father from my lights] and he has criticized LDS missionaries regarding Psalms 82 as "gods" which from his lights is "human judges". I will be getting back to him next week concerning this. Any Scholarly non LDS Scholarly link I can share with him regarding Psalms 82 ?. Thank you all in advance. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine/Washing My Garment In His Blood/In His Eternal Debt/Grace/He Died To Make Man Holy, it's not just 6 words to a song, it has Eternal meaning.

God is an Exalted Human Judge (Ruler) and His children are made like Him. This is a pretty clear promise in the Old Testament (e.g. "God is our refuge and strength... -- and the rest of Psalm 46" and "The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." -- and the rest of 110), so does it matter if it is so in the next world as well as this one?

Edited by CV75
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13 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

I have published a paper on Psalm 82 in a leading non-LDS scholarly journal that you're welcome to pass along (you can access it here). In terms of other non-LDS scholarship that points out that it cannot refer to human judges, there are a number of scholarly books and articles I could point you to, but I don't know that you'll have easy access to them. You're welcome to message me and I can provide a few PDFs, but I also don't want to overwhelm you with a bunch of technical publications that your acquaintance isn't going to bother reading. 

    Dan it says your inbox is full, cannot pm you.

 

 

Edited by Anakin7
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18 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    Dan it says your inbox is full, cannot pm you.

I tried to message you, but it says you cannot receive messages. Feel free to just email me at dan [dot] mcclellan [at] gmail

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4 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

I tried to message you, but it says you cannot receive messages. Feel free to just email me at dan [dot] mcclellan [at] gmail

Is there a .com at the end ?.

Edited by Anakin7
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Just now, Dan McClellan said:

Yes.

    Okay I just sent you my e-mail address. I have been receiving e-mails so it should work. Thank you. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine/Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood/In His Eternal Debt/Grace/He Died To Make Man Holy - Its not just 6 words to a song, it has eternal meaning.

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On 8/21/2020 at 6:27 PM, Anakin7 said:

    I have been having a discussion with a anti LDS on a LDS - Christian, Facebook page. and he is stating that satan and Jesus cannot be brothers due to Jesus creating satan [which from that point of view makes Jesus satan's father from my lights] and he has criticized LDS missionaries regarding Psalms 82 as "gods" which from his lights is "human judges". I will be getting back to him next week concerning this. Any Scholarly non LDS Scholarly link I can share with him regarding Psalms 82 ?. Thank you all in advance. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine/Washing My Garment In His Blood/In His Eternal Debt/Grace/He Died To Make Man Holy, it's not just 6 words to a song, it has Eternal meaning.

I have pointed numerous persons to the right way on this issue, but due to trinitarian doctrine, they refuse to believe what the scriptures plainly say. They say Psalms 82 is referring to bad judges, because otherwise their theology is wrong. Shoftim is "judges" in Hebrew - not elohim. They think God is confused about the Hebrew language or something. However, Yeshua was not confused, and defended Himself against charges of blasphemy for referring to Himself as the son of God by using this very scripture. He said how is that you say I blaspheme when it is written in your law that ye are elohim, and all of you are children of the Most High. It makes no sense for Him to defend himself thusly if Ps 82 is merely referring to unrighteous judges. In addition this is not the only scripture that refers to others as Elohim. Deut says I am an El of Elohim. Is He saying He is an El of pagan gods? Nope. The truth is that the chosen people were chosen because they were elohim from the preexistence - members of the family of immovable stone - however, I don't think LDS understanding goes that far yet.

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10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I have pointed numerous persons to the right way on this issue, but due to trinitarian doctrine, they refuse to believe what the scriptures plainly say. They say Psalms 82 is referring to bad judges, because otherwise their theology is wrong. Shoftim is "judges" in Hebrew - not elohim. They think God is confused about the Hebrew language or something. However, Yeshua was not confused, and defended Himself against charges of blasphemy for referring to Himself as the son of God by using this very scripture. He said how is that you say I blaspheme when it is written in your law that ye are elohim, and all of you are children of the Most High. It makes no sense for Him to defend himself thusly if Ps 82 is merely referring to unrighteous judges. In addition this is not the only scripture that refers to others as Elohim. Deut says I am an El of Elohim. Is He saying He is an El of pagan gods? Nope. The truth is that the chosen people were chosen because they were elohim from the preexistence - members of the family of immovable stone - however, I don't think LDS understanding goes that far yet.

Thank you.

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On 8/22/2020 at 9:45 AM, Dan McClellan said:

In terms of other non-LDS scholarship that points out that it cannot refer to human judges

1 - God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

To me, it looks like the judges of verse 2 are the gods of verse 6.

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3 hours ago, telnetd said:

1 - God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

To me, it looks like the judges of verse 2 are the gods of verse 6.

It looks to me like both God of verse 1 and the "gods" of verse 6 are judges.  "God... judgeth among the gods", and God asks (of the gods) "how long will ye judge unjustly".   But judging is just something that God does, or something gods do.  It doesn't make them not God or gods.  Nor does it mean that the "gods" are only judges anymore than God is only a judge.

Edited by InCognitus
emphasis added
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On 9/4/2020 at 3:55 PM, InCognitus said:

It looks to me like both God of verse 1 and the "gods" of verse 6 are judges.  "God... judgeth among the gods", and God asks (of the gods) "how long will ye judge unjustly".   But judging is just something that God does, or something gods do.  It doesn't make them not God or gods.  Nor does it mean that the "gods" are only judges anymore than God is only a judge.

I don't  know which God you refer to - is Heavenly Father or Jesus a god?

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On 8/21/2020 at 7:27 PM, Anakin7 said:

    I have been having a discussion with a anti LDS on a LDS - Christian, Facebook page. and he is stating that satan and Jesus cannot be brothers due to Jesus creating satan [which from that point of view makes Jesus satan's father from my lights] and he has criticized LDS missionaries regarding Psalms 82 as "gods" which from his lights is "human judges". I will be getting back to him next week concerning this. Any Scholarly non LDS Scholarly link I can share with him regarding Psalms 82 ?. Thank you all in advance. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine/Washing My Garment In His Blood/In His Eternal Debt/Grace/He Died To Make Man Holy, it's not just 6 words to a song, it has Eternal meaning.

There are instances in the Old Testament when an English translation of the Latin Vulgate speaks of human judges as "gods":

"If the thief be not known, the master of the house shall be brought to the gods, and shall swear that he did not lay his hand upon his neighbour's goods." (Ex. 22:8)

It seems likely that this is in reference to civil magistrates/judges. One could still point out their identification and resemblance to God in being authorized to pass judgment in the temporal realm. The gods/judges will do well to remember that all authority comes from above, from God, and that they are duty bound to administer justice and mercy to the best of their abilities as God would.   

Catholics number most of the Psalms differently than Protestants.  Ps. 83:8 is translated as follows:

"For the lawgiver shall give a blessing, they go from virtue to virtue: the God of gods shall be seen in Sion."

Following is a non-LDS reading that I got from a book, which was speaking to the superiority of the New Covenant as against the old Law, and quoting from the Old Testament to show that something superior had been foretold by the prophets:

"We are not astonished at this new Sion's being loved by the Lord  above all the tabernacles of Jacob (Ps. 86:2), beautiful as those once were (Num. 24:5). Now that the blessing has taken place on earth the place once held by the Law, the servants of God have become sons and daughters. Even while living in the flesh, they bear evidence of their heavenly origin, by going on from virtue to virtue. (Ps. 83:8) Though sojourning in this vale of tears, they are ever on the ascent, approaching gradually to the high summits of holiness; they reflect in their lives the perfection of their heavenly Father, who, surrounded as He thus is in Sion by this noble family, is seen to be, in all truth, the God of gods." (Ps. 83:8)

----The Liturgical Year, by Dom Prosper Gueranger, Vol. 11, Time after Pentecost, Book Two, p. 330, St. Bonaventure Publications, July 2000

My comment: If God's people have been adopted from servants to sons and daughters, O happy are they. If they are members of His family, it is certain that they must bear within them His nature. All praise be to the Father! The Psalm does not speak of the God of servants! No, Haha, to the glory of our good God, He has willed to be Father of a family, the God of gods

Sorry it is a little late Anakin7. I trust you will not think that this makes Catholics believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers. We have a lot of differences between us, and that would certainly be high on the list. But for what it is worth Catholics admit, nay, we proclaim that it is God's will that His children become gods.  

3DOP

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7 hours ago, telnetd said:

I don't  know which God you refer to - is Heavenly Father or Jesus a god?

It's the "God" of Psalm 82 of course!   It's likely talking about Heavenly Father.

A post on capitalization by @3DOP in the Our Identity and Our Destiny thread (here) got me thinking about the literal meaning of the words in this chapter. You might be interested in what I found.  The word translated as "God" or "gods" in the King James Version is the same Hebrew word throughout the entire chapter, and so I wondered how Young's Literal Translation would translate this chapter.  This is what I found (here.)

Quote

[Psa 82:1-8 YLT] 
1 -- A Psalm of Asaph. God [’ĕlōhîm] hath stood in the company of God [’ēl], In the midst God [’ĕlōhîm] doth judge. 
2 Till when do ye judge perversely? And the face of the wicked lift up? Selah. 
3 Judge ye the weak and fatherless, The afflicted and the poor declare righteous. 
4 Let the weak and needy escape, From the hand of the wicked deliver them. 
5 They knew not, nor do they understand, In darkness they walk habitually, Moved are all the foundations of earth. 
6 I -- I have said, 'Gods [’ĕlōhîm] ye [are], And sons of the Most High -- all of you, 
7 But as man ye die, and as one of the heads ye fall, 
8 Rise, O God [’ĕlōhîm] , judge the earth, For Thou hast inheritance among all the nations!

I found it interested that the YLT translates both ’ĕlōhîm and ’ēl with a capital G in this chapter.  

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10 hours ago, telnetd said:

I don't  know which God you refer to - is Heavenly Father or Jesus a god?

"6 I -- I have said, 'Gods [’ĕlōhîm] ye [are], And sons of the Most High -- all of you, "

Scripturally, the Most High El is a reference only to heavenly Father - see Luke - which says Yeshua is the Son of the Most High. I believe orthodoxy has incorrectly followed Jewish interpretation of El Shaddai as the Almighty God being the Father, but that will probably draw lots of debate. If Yeshua is El Shaddai, as I believe, then yes, He is God. See Gen 3:22 which refers to "us" as being Yehovah Elohim. If one accepts Christ as included in the "us" then, scripturally He is Yehovah Elohim with the Father even if He is not El Elyon - the Most High El/Power. 

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18 hours ago, InCognitus said:

It's the "God" of Psalm 82 of course!   It's likely talking about Heavenly Father.

A post on capitalization by 3DOP in the Our Identity and Our Destiny thread (here) got me thinking about the literal meaning of the words in this chapter. You might be interested in what I found.  The word translated as "God" or "gods" in the King James Version is the same Hebrew word throughout the entire chapter, and so I wondered how Young's Literal Translation would translate this chapter.  This is what I found (here.)

What is the setting for Psalm 82?

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25 minutes ago, telnetd said:

What is the setting for Psalm 82?

Not that Wikipedia is the fountain of all knowledge, but the article on the "Divine Council" gives a decent overview of the consensus of opinion for the setting of Psalm 82: 

Quote

The Book of Psalms (Psalm 82:1), states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים Elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ‘ăḏaṯ-’êl); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to Yahweh, while others propose that the God of Israel rules over a divine assembly of other Gods or angels.[9] Some translations of the passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]

The bottom line is that the setting for Psalm 82 is the Divine Council.

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On 9/7/2020 at 3:52 PM, InCognitus said:

Not that Wikipedia is the fountain of all knowledge, but the article on the "Divine Council" gives a decent overview of the consensus of opinion for the setting of Psalm 82: 

The bottom line is that the setting for Psalm 82 is the Divine Council.

Do you have church teachings instead of Wikipedia to support the idea Psalm 82 is that council?

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      Can any of my LDS JEDI KNIGHT MASTERS Brothers/Sisters In Christ Jesus please PM me or post here any links to any/all known scriptural references along with any Early Hebrew/Israelite/Saint/Christian individuals From Early O.T to Early N.T and post New Testament period [Apostalic Fathers/Church Leaders/Teachers through to today Who discussed the Divine Celestrial Heavenly Assembly Council ?. Also Links/References to Non LDS [1st] LDS [2nd] works on this topicwould be of great value. Any published works would be of thankfulness. I am gathering material on this subject for future use. Thank you all in advance. May True Grace be With You all.
      In His Debt/Grace
      Anakin7
      LDS JEDI KNIGHT
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