Communion in the Lds Church

[poptart]

Since there's a baptism thread, here's one on the Lord's Supper.  Do you guys do anything like transubstantiation or the glorified body/blood of Christ like the Lutherans?  Is it just ceremony?

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

Since there's a baptism thread, here's one on the Lord's Supper.  Do you guys do anything like transubstantiation or the glorified body/blood of Christ like the Lutherans?  Is it just ceremony?

A ceremony that is sanctified by the Spirit, but no physical change to anything.  It is a spiritual event.

[Kenngo1969]

Nope, we do not believe in transubstantiation. 

[poptart]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A ceremony that is sanctified by the Spirit, but no physical change to anything.  It is a spiritual event.

 

8 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Nope, we do not believe in transubstantiation. 

So just the ceremony?

[smac97]

16 hours ago, poptart said:

 

So just the ceremony?

The sanctified, ratified-by-the-Spirit ceremony, yes.

Edited August 19, 2020 by smac97

[Islander]

58 minutes ago, poptart said:

Since there's a baptism thread, here's one on the Lord's Supper.  Do you guys do anything like transubstantiation or the glorified body/blood of Christ like the Lutherans?  Is it just ceremony?

Transubstantiation is a 12th century construct. The Lord said "do this in remembrance of me". It was a symbolic act. There is absolutely no evidence that the early Church gave a literal interpretation to the words of Christ. 

We do not believe in transubstantiation. The Sacrament has, however, a strong and deeply meaningful spiritual significance for us. 

See here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/sacrament?lang=eng

Edited August 19, 2020 by Islander

[pogi]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

 

So just the ceremony?

It is more than an ordinary ceremony or act of symbolic contemplation.  If we let it, it is a sanctifying ordinance of the priesthood, ratified by the Spirit through covenant making/keeping with our Father.

Edited August 19, 2020 by pogi

[2BizE]

For Mormons, the sacrament is purely spiritual and symbolic.  It reminds us of Christ’s atonement and resurrection and our commitment to keep him in our remembrance.

[poptart]

14 hours ago, Islander said:

Transubstantiation is a 12th century construct. The Lord said "do this in remembrance of me". It was a symbolic act. There is absolutely no evidence that the early Church gave a literal interpretation to the words of Christ. 

We do not believe in transubstantiation. The Sacrament has, however, a strong and deeply meaningful spiritual significance for us. 

See here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/sacrament?lang=eng

The baptised Catholic in me disagrees, the Baptised Lutheran see's similarities in that link, thanks.

This was always the take I had as a kid, made more sense.  Even though I'm a cultural Christian at best, this was what made the most sense. That and hey, I like the vestments and bling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist_in_Lutheranism

13 hours ago, pogi said:

It is more than an ordinary ceremony or act of symbolic contemplation.  If we let it, it is a sanctifying ordinance of the priesthood, ratified by the Spirit through covenant making/keeping with our Father.

So it's an oath of sorts?

12 hours ago, 2BizE said:

For Mormons, the sacrament is purely spiritual and symbolic.  It reminds us of Christ’s atonement and resurrection and our commitment to keep him in our remembrance.

There we go, that's the point blank answer I was looking for.  BTW, committment?  So it's like a mini Confirmation?

Edited August 19, 2020 by poptart

[pogi]

51 minutes ago, poptart said:

So it's an oath of sorts?

Yes, it is a 2-way promise where we promise something to God, and he makes a promise in return.  It is a binding covenant via the priesthood.  It is a renewal of baptismal covenants (promises/oaths).   By keeping our covenants, we are spiritually sanctified (cleansed) and are promised the companionship of the Holy Spirit.  So, it is not merely a symbolic ceremony.

Edited August 19, 2020 by pogi

[JamesBYoung]

Sacrament is an ordinance (ceremony) commanded by the Lord.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

The baptised Catholic in me disagrees, the Baptised Lutheran see's similarities in that link, thanks.

This was always the take I had as a kid, made more sense.  Even though I'm a cultural Christian at best, this was what made the most sense. That and hey, I like the vestments and bling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist_in_Lutheranism

So it's an oath of sorts?

There we go, that's the point blank answer I was looking for.  BTW, committment?  So it's like a mini Confirmation?

It's a RENEWAL of baptismal covenants, a mini baptism 

[poptart]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It's a RENEWAL of baptismal covenants, a mini baptism 

Reason why I said confirmation, when you get dunked/splashed as an infant your parents/sponsor take on the promises for you, during confirmation you pretty much own those vows/promises and are let into the fold.  Kind of the same thing isn't it?  Know you guys don't do infant baptisms.

53 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, it is a 2-way promise where we promise something to God, and he makes a promise in return.  It is a binding covenant via the priesthood.  It is a renewal of baptismal covenants (promises/oaths).   By keeping our covenants, we are spiritually sanctified (cleansed) and are promised the companionship of the Holy Spirit.  So, it is not merely a symbolic ceremony.

So it's like additional grace?

47 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

Sacrament is an ordinance (ceremony) commanded by the Lord.

Same as communion then, I think.

[Tacenda]

I've heard it said that the weekly LDS Sacrament is like a renewal or an occasion to be forgiven for past sins. 

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, poptart said:

So it's like additional grace?

I don't know if it is "additional" as much as it is a renewal of grace and promises.  Think of it like the repentance/forgiveness - 1 time is not enough.  If I could only repent during one ceremony in my life, I'd be hosed. 

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It's a RENEWAL of baptismal covenants, a mini baptism 

A top-up or refresher kind of thing, like when our cup or fuel tank is getting or feels a bit low.   Instead of thinking of it as making a new covenant every week or every time we take it, I think of the covenant I have already made to follow him as his disciple, remembering him and my covenant to follow him, doing his will, so that I may always have his Spirit with me.  I remember him in the flesh, both mortal flesh and the flesh of his resurrected body, which is represented by the bread or crackers or whatever we eat to remember his flesh and body, and then I remember and think of his blood, which coursed through his mortal body while he was mortal, which is represented by the wine or water or whatever we drink to remember and represent the blood in his mortal body which stopped coursing through it when he died a mortal death.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Quote

For Mormons, the sacrament is purely spiritual and symbolic.  It reminds us of Christ’s atonement and resurrection and our commitment to keep him in our remembrance.

There we go, that's the point blank answer I was looking for.  BTW, committment?  So it's like a mini Confirmation?

It's a renewal of the covenants we make at baptism, so yes.  

From The Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Quote

In Latter-day Saint usage, Sacrament designates that ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ as a means by which worthy Saints may renew their covenants with their Redeemer and with God the Father (cf. Mosiah 18:8-10; JC, pp. 596-97; AF, p. 175). 
...
The Sacrament in LDS belief does not serve primarily as a means of securing remission of sins. It does, however, focus attention on the sacrifice for sin wrought by the Savior and on the need for all those who have been baptized to maintain their lives constantly in harmony with his teachings and commandments. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[JAHS]

17 hours ago, poptart said:

Since there's a baptism thread, here's one on the Lord's Supper.  Do you guys do anything like transubstantiation or the glorified body/blood of Christ like the Lutherans?  Is it just ceremony?

It's more than "just ceremony"; it is a priesthood ordinance and can only be administrated by priesthood holders. 
When the Sacrament ordinance starts the Chapel is considered an ordinance room. The Sacrament prayer is directed to God the Father.
The bread represents the body of His son Christ and the water the blood of His son that was shed.
We promise to remember what Jesus did for us and take upon us His name (meaning we stand as representatives of Him on earth),
and that we will keep his commandments. When we do this God promises us that His spirit will be with us. 

[poptart]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't know if it is "additional" as much as it is a renewal of grace and promises.  Think of it like the repentance/forgiveness - 1 time is not enough.  If I could only repent during one ceremony in my life, I'd be hosed. 

With Lutherans the idea of original sin is it's always there, Jesus did enough.  The Lords supper is just a supreme help, one that everyone partakes in and washes away as well as bestows a ton of grace.  Lutheranism sought to keep Catholic elements in a reformed state so a lot of that lingers.  With Catholicism Baptism washes everything away so it's on you if you mess it up, hence confession and the Eucharist.  Confession + Eucharist = you are now in a state where if you died, you're good provided you didn't mess up so bad you get to got purgatory for a while. 
Still prefer the Lutheran take on it, it's easier, more humane and geez who can remember every little thing you've done.  No offense to the Catholics here, this is me I'm just the speshul poster, no offense intended.  Just going off what i've experienced. 

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

A top-up or refresher kind of thing, like when our cup or fuel tank is getting or feels a bit low.   Instead of thinking of it as making a new covenant every week or every time we take it, I think of the covenant I have already made to follow him as his disciple, remembering him and my covenant to follow him, doing his will, so that I may always have his Spirit with me.  I remember him in the flesh, both mortal flesh and the flesh of his resurrected body, which is represented by the bread or crackers or whatever we eat to remember his flesh and body, and then I remember and think of his blood, which coursed through his mortal body while he was mortal, which is represented by the wine or water or whatever we drink to remember and represent the blood in his mortal body which stopped coursing through it when he died a mortal death.

Priest I knew said one of the best things I've ever heard when it comes to confession and the Eucharist and your own personal feelings regarding what you did/didn't do.  "My son, God doesn't care what you feel when it comes to sin, you broke his laws and committed sins that his son had to die for.  You broke the rules and you know it, confess it and knock it off".  I'm sure Jesus would care but I very much like that take on things, quit feeling so entitled.  We all know deep down when we do something wrong, quit blaming everyone else and using your feelings as an excuse.  Not trying to belittle what you said, just tossing my opinion out there.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

It's more than "just ceremony"; it is a priesthood ordinance and can only be administrated by priesthood holders. 
When the Sacrament ordinance starts the Chapel is considered an ordinance room. The Sacrament prayer is directed to God the Father.
The bread represents the body of His son Christ and the water the blood of His son that was shed.
We promise to remember what Jesus did for us and take upon us His name (meaning we stand as representatives of Him on earth),
and that we will keep his commandments. When we do this God promises us that His spirit will be with us. 

I'd like to hear some more about that sometime.  His Spirit with us. Knowing what we now know about how the Spirit of a resurrected person is forever within his resurrected body which is never to be divided again, as in death, although as our Father in heaven is able to create children who also have his spirit in them, as reproductions of him.

[The Nehor]

While we do not accept transubstantiation or consubstantiation the ordinance itself does have power and does create real change. I like the quasi-pagan flavor of the whole thing. Drags us back to blood and flesh. Every Sunday I eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but still living God to find eternal life.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, poptart said:

"My son, God doesn't care what you feel when it comes to sin, you broke his laws and committed sins that his son had to die for.  You broke the rules and you know it, confess it and knock it off".  I'm sure Jesus would care but I very much like that take on things, quit feeling so entitled.  We all know deep down when we do something wrong, quit blaming everyone else and using your feelings as an excuse.  Not trying to belittle what you said, just tossing my opinion out there.

Using our feelings of guilt can actually be more of a help than a harm.  We're supposed to want to be as good as Jesus was, as our ultimate goal, but we're going to mess that up if we do what we want if what we want is not what he wants for us.  So if or when that happens it's time to get back on the right road again and stop playing around on the side roads.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

While we do not accept transubstantiation or consubstantiation the ordinance itself does have power and does create real change. I like the quasi-pagan flavor of the whole thing. Drags us back to blood and flesh. Every Sunday I eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but still living God to find eternal life.

I don't think we're supposed to enjoy it though.  That's why we eat bread (or crackers) and drink water, instead of caviar and champagne.

[poptart]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

While we do not accept transubstantiation or consubstantiation the ordinance itself does have power and does create real change. I like the quasi-pagan flavor of the whole thing. Drags us back to blood and flesh. Every Sunday I eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but still living God to find eternal life.

That's the draw for me, there's a Julius Evola book on the Holy Grail that's on the list.  There's a ton of things in the Eucharist that's lost on the uninitiated, I think anyway.  How much of the old lore was lost over time that survives in some weird form in churches and hermetic orgs like the Rosacrucians. 

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Using our feelings of guilt can actually be more of a help than a harm.  We're supposed to want to be as good as Jesus was, as our ultimate goal, but we're going to mess that up if we do what we want if what we want is not what he wants for us.  So if or when that happens it's time to get back on the right road again and stop playing around on the side roads.

Guess that's me, i've always been more about rules and order, feelings are subjective and can be manipulated.  I'm all for using my gut to feel out a lie but even then it comes back to absolutes, at least what they are for me.  While I can be grey I am still very much black and white in a lot of things.  Maintain what I consider to be truth for me, keep what I consider vile outside of me like a country does with it's boarders yet be open for trade and exchange of ideas.

[poptart]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I don't think we're supposed to enjoy it though.  That's why we eat bread (or crackers) and drink water, instead of caviar and champagne.

Depending on the parish the wine is sometimes good, some places use fortified wine (port).  The host?  Yeah those things suck.  In lots of Catholic Parishes you just get the host, idea is there's as much grace in one element as the other, it's held in such high regard that they don't want to risk spilling any of it.  Even the host, they're so afraid of even a bit of the host being dropped they put the thing in your mouth. 

Part of me thinks they don't want to share the port.....