Covid II: Medical Info and Implications

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Had my second shot (Moderna) on 1/31/2021.  No ill effects (for either shot) other than minor localized swelling at the injection site and a little fatigue a few hours later (a 45 minute nap and back in business).  I ascribe this outcome to my sterling character, superior intellectual abilities, and, of course, to my admirable humility. 

Seriously, I urge everyone to get the vaccine as soon as possible (unless delay is specifically advised by one's doctor).  The benefits clearly outweigh the risks.     

I guess I’m just not living right, lol!

[Peacefully]

My daughter found out she was pregnant after her first dose of the Moderna vaccine. She received the second dose yesterday. The only thing they did differently was observe her for 30 min instead of 15 min. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Peacefully

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

My daughter found out she was pregnant after her first dose of the Moderna vaccine. She received the second dose yesterday. The only thing they did differently was observe her for 30 min instead of 15 min. 

Congratulations (hoping she and everyone is happy about it).

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

California has a high rate of large families living in close quarters due to the high housing costs. And many of those lower-income earners cannot work from home. And so exposure + proximity means the whole household is more likely to get it, increasing transmission rates.

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/08/899841137/extended-families-living-together-raise-risks-for-covid-19-transmission

California has about a 25 percent higher rate than Florida of multigenerational households, with median housing prices roughly double Florida's. That means more people in (more likely) smaller spaces.

My point was that California goes into lockdown while Florida takes a less draconian approach and yet they have similar numbers regarding covid-19 cases.  Maybe the lockdown approach didn't improve anything while unnecessarily harming the economy? 

California has 3,352,380 cases/39,747,267 population = .08 or 8 cases per 100 people

Florida has 1,737,640 cases/21,646,155 population = .08 or 8 cases per 100 people

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102807/coronavirus-covid19-cases-number-us-americans-by-state/

https://worldpopulationreview.com/states

Maybe population density explains this as both states have similar density numbers?  The closer one is to an infected person, the higher the chance of getting covid.  https://state.1keydata.com/state-population-density.php

[Peacefully]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Congratulations (hoping she and everyone is happy about it).

Thank you! We are thrilled. She went through IVF for the first baby. This one decided to happen the old-fashioned way, lol. 

[Calm]

Came across these for those who have issues with glass fogging.  The first is a DIY version and you just need a rubber sheet, you can buy them as well.

https://www.fixthemask.com/products/v2-diy-rubber-sheet-brace

This is a very simple hack that looks pretty good.  Need to test for myself.  Would be interested to see the opinion of professionals though.  She also has another video on how to hack ear loops holders for those of us who have tender ears and need ear loop alternatives.  Since the first hack knots the ear loops, it may make the second hacks even more essential.

 

Anyone else have a good hack for fit or glass fog, feel free to post.

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Came across these for those who have issues with glass fogging.  The first is a DIY version and you just need a rubber sheet, you can buy them as well.

https://www.fixthemask.com/products/v2-diy-rubber-sheet-brace

This is a very simple hack that looks pretty good.  Need to test for myself.  Would be interested to see the opinion of professionals though.  She also has another video on how to hack ear loops holders for those of us who have tender ears and need ear loop alternatives.  Since the first hack knots the ear loops, it may make the second hacks even more essential.

 

Anyone else have a good hack for fit or glass fog, feel free to post.

I heard the other day you can put shaving cream, not gel, on your glasses and wipe them off to keep them fog free.  No idea if it actually works.

You can crochet a simple piece (long oval) and put 2 buttons on them to hold the elastic on the back of your head.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

My point was that California goes into lockdown while Florida takes a less draconian approach and yet they have similar numbers regarding covid-19 cases.  Maybe the lockdown approach didn't improve anything while unnecessarily harming the economy? 

California has 3,352,380 cases/39,747,267 population = .08 or 8 cases per 100 people

Florida has 1,737,640 cases/21,646,155 population = .08 or 8 cases per 100 people

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102807/coronavirus-covid19-cases-number-us-americans-by-state/

https://worldpopulationreview.com/states

Maybe population density explains this as both states have similar density numbers?  The closer one is to an infected person, the higher the chance of getting covid.  https://state.1keydata.com/state-population-density.php

The epidemiological models I and my cohort (applied math Master's students) have worked with this year all suggest that reducing exposure/encounters makes a difference in overall disease transmission through the population.

California is experiencing a natural disaster at the moment with the pandemic. I would argue that the numbers would be worse with no lockdown.

On the other hand, other states that have been less/as restrictive than Florida have experienced worse Covid numbers. And in Miami-Dade, cases did go up when restrictions were loosened.

The special case of New Zealand does demonstrate that restrictions make an important impact.

Ultimately, the information we have generally tells us contact/exposure matters, and that our medical infrastructures are not equipped to provide care to all who need it, given a natural curve resulting from no interventions. 

[Harry T. Clark]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The epidemiological models I and my cohort (applied math Master's students) have worked with this year all suggest that reducing exposure/encounters makes a difference in overall disease transmission through the population.

California is experiencing a natural disaster at the moment with the pandemic. I would argue that the numbers would be worse with no lockdown.

On the other hand, other states that have been less/as restrictive than Florida have experienced worse Covid numbers. And in Miami-Dade, cases did go up when restrictions were loosened.

The special case of New Zealand does demonstrate that restrictions make an important impact.

Ultimately, the information we have generally tells us contact/exposure matters, and that our medical infrastructures are not equipped to provide care to all who need it, given a natural curve resulting from no interventions. 

I don't doubt that reducing exposure reduces transmission.  However, don't lock downs provide the same close contact in the home?  During lock down, one needs to go out to the grocery store/gas station/ wherever to get food/supplies and inevitably come into contact with the contagious.  Then, the virus is brought back and spread among those in the home.

How do you figure that it would have been worse?  On what do you base this?

Again, the overall numbers in California and Florida are the same, unfortunately.  I think the obvious area to study is population density and how that affects the similar numbers.  Both California and Florida have close density numbers.  That is the driver in this as you seem to agree.

New Zealand perhaps is case in favor of lock downs but Sweden is another case, too.

Yes, transmission, like the flu and other viruses is facilitated by close contact.  However, again, my point is that perhaps it isn't the lock downs that have made a difference.  Even in lock down, populations need to go out and get supplies and inevitably come into contact with those infected and then bring it back to the home where they are crammed into close spaces with family, etc.  I think the spread was inevitable whatever we did, unfortunately, and perhaps we need to realize that killing the economy wasn't necessary.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

I don't doubt that reducing exposure reduces transmission.  However, don't lock downs provide the same close contact in the home?  During lock down, one needs to go out to the grocery store/gas station/ wherever to get food/supplies and inevitably come into contact with the contagious.  Then, the virus is brought back and spread among those in the home.

How do you figure that it would have been worse?  On what do you base this?

Again, the overall numbers in California and Florida are the same, unfortunately.  I think the obvious area to study is population density and how that affects the similar numbers.  Both California and Florida have close density numbers.  That is the driver in this as you seem to agree.

New Zealand perhaps is case in favor of lock downs but Sweden is another case, too.

Yes, transmission, like the flu and other viruses is facilitated by close contact.  However, again, my point is that perhaps it isn't the lock downs that have made a difference.  Even in lock down, populations need to go out and get supplies and inevitably come into contact with those infected and then bring it back to the home where they are crammed into close spaces with family, etc.  I think the spread was inevitable whatever we did, unfortunately, and perhaps we need to realize that killing the economy wasn't necessary.

All types of contact are not the same. Outdoors different from indoors. Prolonged different from brief. Masked different from unmasked. 

I think it could have been worse in most all cases with lockdowns if they had not had lockdowns for these reasons, generally. Any reduction of particles and exposure to those particles can reduce the odds of transmission, it is not a game of tag, it is a question of enough viral particles being able to attack our systems. It may be that the number of viral particles also increases the severity of illness, too.

[Harry T. Clark]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

All types of contact are not the same. Outdoors different from indoors. Prolonged different from brief. Masked different from unmasked. 

I think it could have been worse in most all cases with lockdowns if they had not had lockdowns for these reasons, generally. Any reduction of particles and exposure to those particles can reduce the odds of transmission, it is not a game of tag, it is a question of enough viral particles being able to attack our systems. It may be that the number of viral particles also increases the severity of illness, too.

So, how do you explain the similar numbers in Florida and California even though they had different approaches?  Perhaps the lockdowns didn't give better numbers in California because people need to shop in closed spaces where contact with the contagious is inevitable?  Maybe the problem is that lockdowns created the essential v. non-essential dichotomy that disproportionately attacked small business?  The billionaires gained handsomely though.  At least they gained. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/billionaires-made-39-trillion-during-the-pandemic-coronavirus-vaccines-2021-1?op=1

[Meadowchik]

37 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

So, how do you explain the similar numbers in Florida and California even though they had different approaches?  Perhaps the lockdowns didn't give better numbers in California because people need to shop in closed spaces where contact with the contagious is inevitable?  Maybe the problem is that lockdowns created the essential v. non-essential dichotomy that disproportionately attacked small business?  The billionaires gained handsomely though.  At least they gained. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/billionaires-made-39-trillion-during-the-pandemic-coronavirus-vaccines-2021-1?op=1

I did address the difference and possible explanations in my initial responses:

  18 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

California has a high rate of large families living in close quarters due to the high housing costs. And many of those lower-income earners cannot work from home. And so exposure + proximity means the whole household is more likely to get it, increasing transmission rates.

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/08/899841137/extended-families-living-together-raise-risks-for-covid-19-transmission

California has about a 25 percent higher rate than Florida of multigenerational households, with median housing prices roughly double Florida's. That means more people in (more likely) smaller spaces.

And

11 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The epidemiological models I and my cohort (applied math Master's students) have worked with this year all suggest that reducing exposure/encounters makes a difference in overall disease transmission through the population.

California is experiencing a natural disaster at the moment with the pandemic. I would argue that the numbers would be worse with no lockdown.

On the other hand, other states that have been less/as restrictive than Florida have experienced worse Covid numbers. And in Miami-Dade, cases did go up when restrictions were loosened.

The special case of New Zealand does demonstrate that restrictions make an important impact.

Ultimately, the information we have generally tells us contact/exposure matters, and that our medical infrastructures are not equipped to provide care to all who need it, given a natural curve resulting from no interventions. 

 

[Meadowchik]

40 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

So, how do you explain the similar numbers in Florida and California even though they had different approaches?  Perhaps the lockdowns didn't give better numbers in California because people need to shop in closed spaces where contact with the contagious is inevitable?  Maybe the problem is that lockdowns created the essential v. non-essential dichotomy that disproportionately attacked small business?  The billionaires gained handsomely though.  At least they gained. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/billionaires-made-39-trillion-during-the-pandemic-coronavirus-vaccines-2021-1?op=1

I agree that the corporate versus people impact is disproportionate. I believe the governmental mitigation was ostensibly supposed to trickle down from corporations to regular folks.

Also reports have been fine on how the pandemic assistance loans favoured business entities that had relationships with specific banks. Lots of other people were left behind.

[bsjkki]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/health/have-you-had-covid-19-coronavirus.html

A new study may explain why Dr. Romano and many others who have had Covid report these unexpectedly intense reactions to the first shot of a vaccine. In a study posted online on Monday, researchers found that people who had previously been infected with the virus reported fatigue, headache, chills, fever, and muscle and joint pain after the first shot more frequently than did those who had never been infected. Covid survivors also had far higher antibody levels after both the first and second doses of the vaccine.

Based on these results, the researchers say, people who have had Covid-19 may need only one shot.

“I think one vaccination should be sufficient,” said Florian Krammer, a virologist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai and an author on the study. “This would also spare individuals from unnecessary pain when getting the second dose and it would free up additional vaccine doses.”

..."Dr. Susan Malinowski, an ophthalmologist in Michigan who had Covid-19 in March, certainly felt like her body was under attack after she received the Moderna vaccine. She got the first shot before lunch on New Year’s Eve. By dinner, she was starting to feel ill. She spent the next two days miserable in bed.

“I had fevers. I had chills. I had night sweats. I had pain everywhere in my body,” she said. “I was actually more ill after the vaccine than I was with Covid.”

..."People who have had Covid seem to be “reacting to the first dose as if it was a second dose,” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at the Yale School of Medicine. So one dose is probably “more than enough,” she said."

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by bsjkki

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/health/have-you-had-covid-19-coronavirus.html

A new study may explain why Dr. Romano and many others who have had Covid report these unexpectedly intense reactions to the first shot of a vaccine. In a study posted online on Monday, researchers found that people who had previously been infected with the virus reported fatigue, headache, chills, fever, and muscle and joint pain after the first shot more frequently than did those who had never been infected. Covid survivors also had far higher antibody levels after both the first and second doses of the vaccine.

Based on these results, the researchers say, people who have had Covid-19 may need only one shot.

“I think one vaccination should be sufficient,” said Florian Krammer, a virologist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai and an author on the study. “This would also spare individuals from unnecessary pain when getting the second dose and it would free up additional vaccine doses.”

..."Dr. Susan Malinowski, an ophthalmologist in Michigan who had Covid-19 in March, certainly felt like her body was under attack after she received the Moderna vaccine. She got the first shot before lunch on New Year’s Eve. By dinner, she was starting to feel ill. She spent the next two days miserable in bed.

“I had fevers. I had chills. I had night sweats. I had pain everywhere in my body,” she said. “I was actually more ill after the vaccine than I was with Covid.”

..."People who have had Covid seem to be “reacting to the first dose as if it was a second dose,” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at the Yale School of Medicine. So one dose is probably “more than enough,” she said."

 

This is why I want to wait and see what happens with this before taking the dive and getting the shot.  There are too many of these anecdotal stories of bad reactions to the vaccine.  The last time I took the flu shot, I had the same bad experience as some of the above have had with the covid vaccine.  It gave me an intense fever for half of a day and then I was fine.  However, I thought I was going to die during that half of a day.  Not fun.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

  Maybe the problem is that lockdowns created the essential v. non-essential dichotomy that disproportionately attacked small business?  

Not a medical issue, start another thread if you want to discuss that.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

I think the spread was inevitable whatever we did, unfortunately, and perhaps we need to realize that killing the economy wasn't necessary.

And yet here I am, in a jurisdiction that hasn't had a single case of community transmission of COVID-19 since June last year. Our quick, early steps to quarantine returning travellers, track and trace each time there was an outbreak of community spread, and follow medically informed guidelines on how to reduce the risk of transmission (including temporarily restricting 'non-essential' businesses in the early phases and financially supporting their workers) means that every single business is now open and has been for many months.

Our unemployment rate hit a scary 9.8 per cent in April last year as a result of locking down targeted segments of the economy; by last quarter it had dropped back to 3.7 per cent, meaning the economic recovery has been strong.

Today the pedestrian mall near my office is thronged with people eating, street musicians performing, pensioners meeting up for coffee, etc. My favourite buffet was even able to reopen in November with COVID-safe practices,* making it possible to celebrate my birthday there! (And we have a booking to celebrate the Lunar New Year there next week as well.)

Church-wise, we have been meeting in-person for sacrament meeting since around August, we have been singing as a congregation since December, and we return to our classes this Sunday -- no masking required (except for those administering the sacrament, as mandated by Church leaders). We resumed holding stake council at the stake centre last week, and it felt really good to be together.

I'm grateful for sensible, informed leaders and disciplined, mature residents who together made this possible. We certainly paid a price up-front, but as promised by medical experts, we are reaping significant rewards now as a result.

-----

*The sushi train continues to operate with small, covered plates, and now the salads, cold seafood, and cold desserts are served up in the same way. Hot foods are all served up on plates by gloved/masked staff and then handed to customers. The drinks machine and ice cream machine are manned by staff. Tables have been arranged to keep safe gaps between parties, and queuing areas have been marked as well. New cutlery, etc. must all be requested from a server.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Harry T. Clark]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And yet here I am, in a jurisdiction that hasn't had a single case of community transmission of COVID-19 since June last year. Our quick, early steps to quarantine returning travellers, track and trace each time there was an outbreak of community spread, and follow medically informed guidelines on how to reduce the risk of transmission (including temporarily restricting 'non-essential' businesses in the early phases and financially supporting their workers) means that every single business is now open and has been for many months.

Our unemployment rate hit a scary 9.8 per cent in April last year as a result of locking down targeted segments of the economy; by last quarter it had dropped back to 3.7 per cent, meaning the economic recovery has been strong.

Today the pedestrian mall near my office is thronged with people eating, street musicians performing, pensioners meeting up for coffee, etc. My favourite buffet was even able to reopen in November with COVID-safe practices,* making it possible to celebrate my birthday there! (And we have a booking to celebrate the Lunar New Year there next week as well.)

Church-wise, we have been meeting in-person for sacrament meeting since around August, we have been singing as a congregation since December, and we return to our classes this Sunday -- no masking required (except for those administering the sacrament, as mandated by Church leaders). We resumed holding stake council at the stake centre last week, and it felt really good to be together.

I'm grateful for sensible, informed leaders and disciplined, mature residents who together made this possible. We certainly paid a price up-front, but as promised by medical experts, we are reaping significant rewards now as a result.

-----

*The sushi train continues to operate with small, covered plates, and now the salads, cold seafood, and cold desserts are served up in the same way. Hot foods are all served up on plates by gloved/masked staff and then handed to customers. The drinks machine and ice cream machine are manned by staff. Tables have been arranged to keep safe gaps between parties, and queuing areas have been marked as well. New cutlery, etc. must all be requested from a server.

Where is your jurisdiction? Also, too bad your personal experience didn't happen in this country.  There will be a bankruptcy wave in the US as a result of this.

[Calm]

Please...that lockdowns work or don’t work medically is appropriate for this thread. Discussing economic results is not. Clark, please start your own thread if that is what you want to focus on.

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Please...that lockdowns work or don’t work medically is appropriate for this thread. Discussing economic results is not. Clark, please start your own thread if that is what you want to focus on.

We unfortunately live in a world where medical decisions affect pocketbooks and pocketbooks affect medical decisions.  And the lockdown decisions definitely affected economies.  So, why are you so keen to not tie the two together when there is such a close relationship?  It seems obvious that the economic results of medical information use or misuse would be an implication.  I don't see how avoiding this implication is helpful.  Why the fuss?

[mfbukowski]

Sorry guys I have not been following this HUGE thread, but I have a question.

Some folks get mild symptoms of covid for a day or two after receiving a vaccination.

Can others actually "catch" covid from those recently vaccinated?

My wife OFTEN gets the flu when she is vaccinated.  I know that is allegedly impossible but I have seen it with my own eyes in her case several times. Yes it is a mild case, but she will feel fine, and then get a flu vaccination, and in a day or two after receiving it get flu symptoms- lasting for weeks in some cases.

This is real- I have seen it happen more than once.

So if she gets a covid vaccination is it possible I will catch covid?   I know the standard answer is "no"- but any counter-examples out there to the standard answer?

[Rain]

On 2/4/2021 at 1:42 PM, bsjkki said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/health/have-you-had-covid-19-coronavirus.html

A new study may explain why Dr. Romano and many others who have had Covid report these unexpectedly intense reactions to the first shot of a vaccine. In a study posted online on Monday, researchers found that people who had previously been infected with the virus reported fatigue, headache, chills, fever, and muscle and joint pain after the first shot more frequently than did those who had never been infected. Covid survivors also had far higher antibody levels after both the first and second doses of the vaccine.

Based on these results, the researchers say, people who have had Covid-19 may need only one shot.

“I think one vaccination should be sufficient,” said Florian Krammer, a virologist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai and an author on the study. “This would also spare individuals from unnecessary pain when getting the second dose and it would free up additional vaccine doses.”

..."Dr. Susan Malinowski, an ophthalmologist in Michigan who had Covid-19 in March, certainly felt like her body was under attack after she received the Moderna vaccine. She got the first shot before lunch on New Year’s Eve. By dinner, she was starting to feel ill. She spent the next two days miserable in bed.

“I had fevers. I had chills. I had night sweats. I had pain everywhere in my body,” she said. “I was actually more ill after the vaccine than I was with Covid.”

..."People who have had Covid seem to be “reacting to the first dose as if it was a second dose,” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at the Yale School of Medicine. So one dose is probably “more than enough,” she said."

 

That would be really nice.  I hope they continue to find covid survivors only need one.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

We unfortunately live in a world where medical decisions affect pocketbooks and pocketbooks affect medical decisions.  And the lockdown decisions definitely affected economies.  So, why are you so keen to not tie the two together when there is such a close relationship?  It seems obvious that the economic results of medical information use or misuse would be an implication.  I don't see how avoiding this implication is helpful.  Why the fuss?

Probably because we have now exceeded the death toll for the entire four years of the Second World War in one year so the economics are very secondary to anyone who values life over wealth.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry guys I have not been following this HUGE thread, but I have a question.

Some folks get mild symptoms of covid for a day or two after receiving a vaccination.

Can others actually "catch" covid from those recently vaccinated?

My wife OFTEN gets the flu when she is vaccinated.  I know that is allegedly impossible but I have seen it with my own eyes in her case several times. Yes it is a mild case, but she will feel fine, and then get a flu vaccination, and in a day or two after receiving it get flu symptoms- lasting for weeks in some cases.

This is real- I have seen it happen more than once.

So if she gets a covid vaccination is it possible I will catch covid?   I know the standard answer is "no"- but any counter-examples out there to the standard answer?

No, you can’t catch it from someone who got the vaccine. They don’t have it to catch.

Edit: Note that if they have Covid when they got the vaccine they can still spread it.

Edited February 6, 2021 by The Nehor

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry guys I have not been following this HUGE thread, but I have a question.

Some folks get mild symptoms of covid for a day or two after receiving a vaccination.

Can others actually "catch" covid from those recently vaccinated?

My wife OFTEN gets the flu when she is vaccinated.  I know that is allegedly impossible but I have seen it with my own eyes in her case several times. Yes it is a mild case, but she will feel fine, and then get a flu vaccination, and in a day or two after receiving it get flu symptoms- lasting for weeks in some cases.

This is real- I have seen it happen more than once.

So if she gets a covid vaccination is it possible I will catch covid?   I know the standard answer is "no"- but any counter-examples out there to the standard answer?

The COVID vaccine is only about 80% effective in preventing most people from catching COVID so she would still have about a 20% chance of getting it, and if she got it yes you could possibly catch it from her.

Sometimes the "for better or worse" clause we accept in our marriage contracts means we will still be around them whether our spouse gets better or worse.