gav Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I’m an articulate and yet life long terrible speller. Always have been. Spelling has never been my gift. But once written out I reread what I have written and can sense that a particular word isn’t quite right. When I do sense this I correct it. Thus my penchant for multiple edits to my posts. I can identify with that... auto spellcheck has been a gift from heaven for me, but doesn't help much when my misspelling is the correct spelling for something else. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 51 minutes ago, let’s roll said: I sent a Thank You card some time ago that had Thank You printed on it in a dozen or so languages. I hope no one thought I was implying that I’m proficient in a dozen languages...that certainly wasn’t my intent. I was just very thankful. At Christmas time I will occasionally sing Feliz Navidad, the Christmas song made popular years ago by José Feliciano. I’ve tried to memorize the words to the 1962 hit song Suki Yaki and the words to the 1959 hit Volare so that I could sing those songs. I would hope no one would conclude from the above that I’m trying to fein fluency in Spanish, Japanese or Italian. Such is not my intent. Link to comment
Robert J Anderson Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 Quote Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.) An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn. The above is from the document. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/transcript/general-joseph-smiths-appeal-to-the-green-mountain-boys-december-1843?print=true I don't know how one could say that Joseph Smith isn't trying to show that he knew all of the above languages, including Egyptian. He says a statement supposedly in Egyptian and then gives the supposed translation: "An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?)" Link to comment
Popular Post OGHoosier Posted August 16, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2020 (edited) After encountering this question yesterday I spent a few hours in research and, I must say, it was a gift. I learned a lot. I appreciate this question for the same reason that Hugh Nibley appreciated the critics of his day: “they keep us on our toes.” I’m going to draw a lot from three insightful papers by Samuel Morris Brown, which I encourage everyone to peruse: The Language of Heaven: Prolegomenon to the Study of Smithian Translation (to be referenced as LoH) Joseph (Smith) in Egypt: Babel, Hieroglyphs, and the Pure Language of Eden (to be referenced as JSE) The Translator and the Ghostwriter: Joseph Smith and W.W. Phelps (to be referenced as TatG) My link to Joseph (Smith) in Egypt is a JSTOR link, so it may not be accessible to everyone. I got it using my BYU student access. It should be free, however, to anyone with a JSTOR account, which I think is a great thing to have in any case. First, some fundamentals. Joseph Smith did not write the Appeal to Vermont's "Green Mountain Boys", W.W. Phelps ghostwrote it for him, as he did many other documents. The Appeal was read twice in public by Phelps and sustained by Church leaders before it was sent (TatG, 44-47). In context, it was sustained as a political document, not as an evidence of translation capabilities. It seems clear to me that Joseph Smith was aware of what Phelps wrote on his behalf, though I don't know offhand of any specific acclamation of the Appeal by the Prophet. However, that doesn't matter so much in light of the seeming fact that the Egyptian phrase in question, "Su-e-eh-ni", was derived from the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. As noted by Brown in TatG page 60-61, the definition for "Su-e-eh-ni" in the Appeal is almost identical to the entry in the Egyptian alphabet : "What other person is that? Who." vs. "What other persons are those?" It should be noted that there is a likely error in Brown's analysis here: on page 61 he attributes the handwriting on the Egyptian alphabet page to Joseph Smith, but the JSPP attributes it to Oliver Cowdery. Brown acknowledges in the footnotes that his attribution is contended and he published it in 2007, so I'm going to trust the JSPP here and go with Cowdery. The fundamentals being established, I'd like to add a cautionary note. I don't think it's responsible to lay the whole KEP at the feet of Joseph Smith. We know that Phelps was a major driver of the project and had interest in recovering the Pure Language. We also know that Phelps was an independent linguistic innovator in his own right. In 1843 Phelps offered an interpretation of several terms which we recognize from the Egyptian Grammar and Alphabet and Facsimile 2, but he deviates from those documents somewhat notably. Quote Notably, though, this use of Enish-go-on-dosh (without Oliblish or Kae-e-vanrash) violates its prominent use in both the Grammar and Alphabet and the published description of Facsimile 2 in the Times and Seasons as one of a triumvirate of “governing creation” and this discordance with the published version may suggest Phelps’s relative lack of involvement with the facsimile legend. - TatG, 60 Later in life, Phelps would offer his own translations independent of Joseph Smith: Quote "In the 1860s Phelps would offer translations for a variety of the code names used in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants. These late translations are inconsistent, as indicated by his varying definitions of “Shalemanasseh” and his failure to recognize “Shinehah” and “Olehah” from Smith’s scriptures. Still they are imaginative, particularly “a tried broken Pillar” and “everlasting helpmet.” - TatG, 57 "Phelps again tried his hand at deciphering “hieroglyphics or characters and Hebrew coin letters,” when an inscribed copper coin was found “on the Colorado river” in 1860. He informed the questioners that the coin was “a Nephite Senine or farthing” issued by a King Hagagadonihah in A.D. 95, and indicated that Hebrew-Egyptian hieroglyphics employed Arabic numerals, just as he had implicitly claimed in one of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers documents. The same year he made a similar claim about a relic from Ohio, providing an idiosyncratic translation of purported Hebrew." - TatG, 58-59 So, in other words, W.W. Phelps is all over the place. He's a loose cannon, linguistically speaking. As evinced on multiple occasions, either he had no regard for syncing up his work with the work of Smith and others around him, or he just didn't do his due diligence. I disagree with Brown on Phelps' relative lack of involvement with the facsimile: Phelps intentionally sought out the Egyptian documents in preparation for his letters (TatG, 59). He definitely had access to the Facsimile explanations, being involved with the Times and Seasons. I don't think lack of involvement can account for Phelps' errata. Phelps seems to have no problem deviating from Smith's authority on translation and winging it out on his own, and seems to consider himself an independent linguistic authority. Furthermore, we know that Joseph Smith didn't keep his associates at an arm's distance during periods of revelatory grace. He had cooperative revelations with Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams, indicating that he didn't hoard his prophetic authority and privilege for himself, but invited trusted associates into the divine presence whenever he could, much as the temple ordinances given through him would do. An especially relevant example is D&C 9, because it directly involves translation. We know, thanks to the very existence of D&C 9, that Joseph permitted Oliver to give translation his best college try, and in D&C 9:2 the Lord promises Cowdery that he will be able to directly assist in translating in future projects. Interestingly, the "Su-e-eh-ni" entry in the Egyptian Alphabet is in the handwriting of Cowdery. So, the long and the short of this point: I don't think smacking Joseph across the face with the KEP and resulting translations does much good. I think there's very good reason to think that the KEP was a cooperative project with his enthusiastic associates, and may even have been driven by them. I've only cited one of those papers up top up to now. The other two involve some important thoughts regarding the general mechanics of Smith's translation and the purpose of his Egyptian translation projects. Quote The KEP grammars contain words that Smith and Phelps understood to be the language of Eden merged into and modulated by the ancient languages of Christian scripture that Campbell and others held sacred. - JSE, 54 The gist of this paper is that Joseph and co. weren't going for Egyptian qua Egyptian, but for an older language they thought lay behind it. Egypt, however, to them represented the absolute furthest reaches of antiquity, so they called the whole project Egyptian. The KEP features original characters with Hebrew and Greek influences at times as an extension of the Pure Language Project, by which Smith and his associates sought to reach past Babel to the language of Adam, which they believed had partially diffused throughout the language systems of the world. They sought to uncover the Adamic language in the same way as the ecstatic practitioners of glossalalia. Quote "Sacred language also expressed itself in less formal ways. In outbursts of charismatic religion probably drawn from scattered sectarian revivalists, some early Mormons participated in dramatic hymn-singing in unknown tongues, patterned on the account in Acts (2:1-21) of the first self-consciously Christian Pentecost, itself the miraculous inversion of the Tower of Babel. Early Mormons proposed two main accounts for their gift of tongues, either evangelism-focused mastery of America’s Native languages or fleeting access to the lost language of Adam.Though intermittent power struggles occurred between Church leaders and some of the most energetic charismatics within Mormonism, tongue speaking had an important role in lived religion for many early Mormons. At least some of this power was associated with tongue-speaking’s claim to the priority of Adamic over human languages." -LoH, 58-59 Brown argues that the KEP could well be an example of glossalalia on the part of Joseph Smith and his associates, just written down. Joseph taught that to speak in an unknown tongue was fine so long as somebody had the gift of interpretation of tongues and could therefore explain the meaning. I find this to be a very interesting way of viewing the KEP and related excerpts such as the Appeal: glossalalic revelation of the primeval language crystallized, captured in a moment in time on fading paper. Of course, I am also intrigued and convinced that the glyph for "book" as recorded by Frederick G. Williams is substantially correct. So perhaps there is more to be found along other routes of investigation. But I found Brown's thoughts to be relevant and compelling. Edited August 16, 2020 by OGHoosier Formatting 8 Link to comment
Popular Post Maidservant Posted August 16, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2020 19 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.) An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn. Stream of consciousness. Beautiful. P.S. I don't speak Spanish fluently; and when I wrote a certain poem I knew even less. In fact, it was the encounter of some phrases and words in Spanish in my initial learning that captured my imagination and emotion and I knew it had to have a poem. It's almost all in English, but first line is in Spanish and last line is one word: "reloj". My purpose was other than making sure others knew I knew Spanish (when I didn't). I know a lot of Arabic words and a lot of Sanskrit words through my religious study and living; probably just enough to be 'dangerous'. I don't speak Arabic and I don't speak Sanskrit; I have no notion of their structure. But I can wax for a long time (in English) on the principle(s) of jahiliyyah, jihad, and jannah (as an example). I can feel this in, say, the word 'Zaubol' Joseph (or Phelps) exclaims poetically above. It is evident to me that he was carrying that word within him from whenever he had previously encountered it. Zaubol, zaubol, zaubol. Yes, in English it means (?) sacrifice. But there is something within it for him to say 'zaubol'; just as I now say 'jahiliyyah' even though in English it simply means 'the forgetting'. But it 'ought' to be said jahiliyyah, for the weight in that word. Ahimsa means 'harmlessness' but to say 'harmlessness' doesn't really capture 'ahimsa'. Point being is that Joseph (or Phelps) spewing forth foreign phrases is not what you say it is, a way to show you know the whole language. It simply is a vessel for meaning, emotion, imagination ESPECIALLY when one doesn't know the whole language. 5 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: That’s an interesting perception. Purposely misspelling to obfuscate. Hmmm. I’m an articulate and yet life long terrible speller. Always have been. Spelling has never been my gift. But once written out I reread what I have written and can sense that a particular word isn’t quite right. When I do sense this I correct it. Thus my penchant for multiple edits to my posts. But you’re accusing me of purposely misspelling for some nefarious motivation. Interesting. Que QAnon...more conspiracies afoot. O.K. I apologize, Fair Dinkum. You come by your bad spelling honestly. I get it. Maybe that's how its done Sidneyside, mate. Link to comment
Fair Dinkum Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 1 hour ago, OGHoosier said: After encountering this question yesterday I spent a few hours in research and, I must say, it was a gift. I learned a lot. I appreciate this question for the same reason that Hugh Nibley appreciated the critics of his day: “they keep us on our toes.”referenced as JSE) I hope you’re not suggesting that I’m a critic for posting this subject? Link to comment
OGHoosier Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I hope you’re not suggesting that I’m a critic for posting this subject? No, honestly. You approach these sorts of questions in a different way from me, I think, but I wouldn't categorize you as an inveterate critic. But you've got to admit that "Who do we believe? Joseph Smith or the Apologists?" is something of a challenge which, like I said, keeps me on my toes. 2 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Maidservant said: Stream of consciousness. Beautiful. P.S. I don't speak Spanish fluently; and when I wrote a certain poem I knew even less. In fact, it was the encounter of some phrases and words in Spanish in my initial learning that captured my imagination and emotion and I knew it had to have a poem. It's almost all in English, but first line is in Spanish and last line is one word: "reloj". My purpose was other than making sure others knew I knew Spanish (when I didn't). I know a lot of Arabic words and a lot of Sanskrit words through my religious study and living; probably just enough to be 'dangerous'. I don't speak Arabic and I don't speak Sanskrit; I have no notion of their structure. But I can wax for a long time (in English) on the principle(s) of jahiliyyah, jihad, and jannah (as an example). I can feel this in, say, the word 'Zaubol' Joseph (or Phelps) exclaims poetically above. It is evident to me that he was carrying that word within him from whenever he had previously encountered it. Zaubol, zaubol, zaubol. Yes, in English it means (?) sacrifice. But there is something within it for him to say 'zaubol'; just as I now say 'jahiliyyah' even though in English it simply means 'the forgetting'. But it 'ought' to be said jahiliyyah, for the weight in that word. Ahimsa means 'harmlessness' but to say 'harmlessness' doesn't really capture 'ahimsa'. Point being is that Joseph (or Phelps) spewing forth foreign phrases is not what you say it is, a way to show you know the whole language. It simply is a vessel for meaning, emotion, imagination ESPECIALLY when one doesn't know the whole language. Indeed. It’s like when I use a well known Latin expression such as carpe diem (seize the day) or caveat emptor (buyer beware) or quid pro quo (this for that) or post hoc ergo propter hoc (occurring afterward, therefore resulting from). I do it to spice up my writing, but I’ve never seriously entertained the idea that a reader would be misled into believing I am fluent in Latin. That’s a silly notion. Edited August 16, 2020 by Scott Lloyd 2 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 Similar to what others have pointed out, I know about a dozen different words in about a dozen different languages. I would never try to convince anyone that I'm fluent or that I can translate in any of them. 2 Link to comment
Fair Dinkum Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: O.K. I apologize, Fair Dinkum. You come by your bad spelling honestly. I get it. Maybe that's how its done Sidneyside, mate. Caught in my own trap. What to do? If I point out that Robert has misspelled Sydneyside. I’m guilty of the same charge I’ve accused Brother Lloyd of being. But on the other hand it could be that Robert is just purposely trying to obfuscate the subject. Probably best that I just leave it alone and say nothing. 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, OGHoosier said: No, honestly. You approach these sorts of questions in a different way from me, I think, but I wouldn't categorize you as an inveterate critic. But you've got to admit that "Who do we believe? Joseph Smith or the Apologists?" is something of a challenge which, like I said, keeps me on my toes. Something about the subtly disparaging use of the term “apologists” here conveys critic to me. Link to comment
OGHoosier Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Something about the subtly disparaging use of the term “apologists” here conveys critic to me. Well, you've always got people like Ed Goble, who disagree with the so-called "apologetic positions" on some things but are not critics of the Church per se. Edit: Actually, my original statement was a misrepresentation of Ed Goble. He defends the Church, but he disagrees with the theories of lots of apologists and advances his own. His opinion of many apologists is not high. Edited August 17, 2020 by OGHoosier Added edited section 1 Link to comment
Fair Dinkum Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Indeed. It’s like when I use a well known Latin expression such as carpe diem (seize the day) or caveat emptor (buyer beware) or quid pro quo (*** for tat) or post hoc ergo propter hoc (occurring afterward therefore resulting from). I do it to spice up my writing, but I’ve never seriously entertained the idea that a reader would be misled into believing I am fluent in Latin. That’s a silly notion. Apples and oranges. You’re not speaking a dead language as if you know it to your audience Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Apples and oranges. You’re not speaking a dead language as if you know it to your audience A distinction without a difference. One can be fluent or not fluent in Latin, “dead language” or not. In fact, some might regard Latin fluency as a mark of scholarly attainment. 1 Link to comment
webbles Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 20 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.) An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn. Do you know if any one has actually figured out how many of these languages make sense? I just did a quick Google translate of the English to the supposed language and it looks like many of the translations are wrong. But I'd love to see if someone has actually tried to match them up. Here's each language with what is in the document and the Google Translate of the English text. Chaldean Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.) Not in Google Translate Egyptian Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) Not in Google Translate. Greek Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) O diávolos vasilévei French: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God.) Messieurs sans Dieu Turkish Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) Işık çeşmesi German sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) was für eine vollendete Unwissenheit Syrian Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) Not in Google Translate Spanish ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) Un sabio reflexiona, un necio no Samaritan Saunau! (O Stranger!) Not in Google Translate Italian Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) Oh i tempi! o la diffidenza! Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) אלוהים רואה אותי Danish Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) Hvad tidender Saxon Hwaet riht! (What right!) Not in Google Translate Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) vad skill (though, Google Translate also says this means 'what difference') Polander Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) Niech będzie błogosławione imię Jezusa Chrystusa Western Indian (I guessed Hindi) She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) saphed aadamee, saphed aadamee par, vah bahut anishchit hai Latin Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) Abi, abi ne polluatis Link to comment
OGHoosier Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 1 minute ago, webbles said: Do you know if any one has actually figured out how many of these languages make sense? I just did a quick Google translate of the English to the supposed language and it looks like many of the translations are wrong. But I'd love to see if someone has actually tried to match them up. Here's each language with what is in the document and the Google Translate of the English text. Chaldean Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.) Not in Google Translate Egyptian Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) Not in Google Translate. Greek Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) O diávolos vasilévei French: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God.) Messieurs sans Dieu Turkish Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) Işık çeşmesi German sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) was für eine vollendete Unwissenheit Syrian Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) Not in Google Translate Spanish ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) Un sabio reflexiona, un necio no Samaritan Saunau! (O Stranger!) Not in Google Translate Italian Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) Oh i tempi! o la diffidenza! Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) אלוהים רואה אותי Danish Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) Hvad tidender Saxon Hwaet riht! (What right!) Not in Google Translate Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) vad skill (though, Google Translate also says this means 'what difference') Polander Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) Niech będzie błogosławione imię Jezusa Chrystusa Western Indian (I guessed Hindi) She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) saphed aadamee, saphed aadamee par, vah bahut anishchit hai Latin Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) Abi, abi ne polluatis Sam Brown has notes on each of them in the footnotes of The Translator and the Ghostwriter. Most of them are kind of unorthodox when it comes to spelling but they work. 4 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 1 hour ago, webbles said: Do you know if any one has actually figured out how many of these languages make sense? I just did a quick Google translate of the English to the supposed language and it looks like many of the translations are wrong. But I'd love to see if someone has actually tried to match them up. Here's each language with what is in the document and the Google Translate of the English text. Chaldean Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.) Not in Google Translate Egyptian Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) Not in Google Translate. Greek Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) O diávolos vasilévei French: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God.) Messieurs sans Dieu Turkish Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) Işık çeşmesi German sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) was für eine vollendete Unwissenheit Syrian Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) Not in Google Translate Spanish ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) Un sabio reflexiona, un necio no Samaritan Saunau! (O Stranger!) Not in Google Translate Italian Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) Oh i tempi! o la diffidenza! Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) אלוהים רואה אותי Danish Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) Hvad tidender Saxon Hwaet riht! (What right!) Not in Google Translate Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) vad skill (though, Google Translate also says this means 'what difference') Polander Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) Niech będzie błogosławione imię Jezusa Chrystusa Western Indian (I guessed Hindi) She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) saphed aadamee, saphed aadamee par, vah bahut anishchit hai Latin Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) Abi, abi ne polluatis Well, if it's not in Google Translate, QED! 1 Link to comment
readstoomuch Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 I have been following the different threads on the BOA. The issues and opinions really sound about the same that I have heard for the last twenty years. Brian Hauglid is a bit of a wild card that has been different lately. RFM does an interview with Brian, so John Dehlin has to do something even bigger with Robert Ritner. There have been some other translation topics with small portions of Adam Clarke`s Commentary showing up in the Joseph Smith Translation when studied by Thomas Wayment and his assistant who ended up leaving the Church after graduating from BYU. I have wanted to answer with this article by KARL C SANDBERG-KNOWING BROTHER JOSEPH AGAIN on multiple threads. I was unsuccessful in attaching it as a link. Not one of my skills. I guess mine is more in reading. I find myself going back to it again and again when thinking about translation issues. He was a brilliant man who died as a faithful, thoughtful latter day saint back in 2003. He sort of flew under the radar, but he has an extensive number of papers at the University of Utah that look interesting when perused. The tributes to him at the time are telling. 2 Link to comment
sheilauk Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 2 hours ago, webbles said: Western Indian (I guessed Hindi) She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) Interesting you used hindi. I had assumed he meant a first nation / native American tribe such as the sioux, apache or navajo. Link to comment
Fair Dinkum Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 9 minutes ago, readstoomuch said: I have been following the different threads on the BOA. The issues and opinions really sound about the same that I have heard for the last twenty years. Brian Hauglid is a bit of a wild card that has been different lately. RFM does an interview with Brian, so John Dehlin has to do something even bigger with Robert Ritner. There have been some other translation topics with small portions of Adam Clarke`s Commentary showing up in the Joseph Smith Translation when studied by Thomas Wayment and his assistant who ended up leaving the Church after graduating from BYU. I have wanted to answer with this article by KARL C SANDBERG-KNOWING BROTHER JOSEPH AGAIN on multiple threads. I was unsuccessful in attaching it as a link. Not one of my skills. I guess mine is more in reading. I find myself going back to it again and again when thinking about translation issues. He was a brilliant man who died as a faithful, thoughtful latter day saint back in 2003. He sort of flew under the radar, but he has an extensive number of papers at the University of Utah that look interesting when perused. The tributes to him at the time are telling. Here’s the link: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/knowing-brother-joseph-again-the-book-of-abraham-and-joseph-smith-as-translator/ Link to comment
webbles Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 2 hours ago, OGHoosier said: Sam Brown has notes on each of them in the footnotes of The Translator and the Ghostwriter. Most of them are kind of unorthodox when it comes to spelling but they work. Thank you. I found it on pages 20-22 of the pdf (page number 45-47 in the document). 10 out of 17 are basically correct. Of those correct, 3 of them (Chaldean, Samaritan, and Hebrew) probably come from primers that Joshua Seixas brought to the Hebrew school. 1 of them (the Western Indian) is from the Lenape tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape) and Phelps probably picked it up because of missionary contact with a group that had been relocated to Fort Leavenworth. The other 6 (Greek, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Latin) have only minor issues. Of the 7 that are incorrect, 1 is the Egyptian one. The Turkish one probably references a religious festival which is not what someone would say to the rhetorical question that Phelps posed before writing all of the languages. Syrian is unknown. 3 (Danish, Saxon, and Sweede) are literal translations of the English words which is what someone who doesn't know the language would do. Polish is either completely wrong or Phelps used the word for "name" instead of "blessed". So, almost half of the languages are incorrect. If you just look at the dead languages (Chaldean, Samaritan, Hebrew, Latin, Saxon, Syrian, Egyptian), more than half (4 out of 7) are correct. And if you look at the non dead languages (Greek, French, German, Spanish, Latin, Lenape, Turkish, Danish, Sweede, Polish), 4 out of 10 are incorrect. 2 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 5 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: Caught in my own trap. What to do? If I point out that Robert has misspelled Sydneyside. I’m guilty of the same charge I’ve accused Brother Lloyd of being. But on the other hand it could be that Robert is just purposely trying to obfuscate the subject. Probably best that I just leave it alone and say nothing. Sorry, mate. I really don't know that much about you antipodeans, or even how to spell your terms properly. Reminds me of an early LDS Church member, Simonds Ryder, who apostatized because Joseph couldn't spell his name right. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 17 hours ago, OGHoosier said: After encountering this question yesterday I spent a few hours in research and, I must say, it was a gift. I learned a lot. None of which is going to make for a very good 'gotcha' moment on your podcast ... 2 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, let’s roll said: I sent a Thank You card some time ago that had Thank You printed on it in a dozen or so languages. I hope no one thought I was implying that I’m proficient in a dozen languages...that certainly wasn’t my intent. I was just very thankful. You're proficient in the words "thank you"! Hehehe! Edited August 17, 2020 by Tacenda Link to comment
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