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Is the Usa Babylon the Great, the Whore and Mother of Harlots of Revelation


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23 hours ago, gav said:

In the winding up scenes an entity emerges powerful enough to sit upon the universally powerful beast that proceeded it.

Is this the hegemonic final unipower of the USA, presiding over secular globalism or is this the entire western hegemony that dominates the global south and east?

Lets consider the story of the USA especially for @Ahab sake after much insistence.

Nope, that beast is Rome. Notice its parts of the previous beasts before it.

The United States is the beast which comes after and arises out of the earth in Rev 13:11. It exercises its power as a superpower like Rome.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb(Pres and Vice Pres), and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,(nuclear weapons, etc)

14 And adeceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those bmiracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. (Not fully fulfilled yet, but the ongoing crises will help bring this about)

You left out the woman riding the beast who is the mother of harlots. The US just doesn't fit your speculations. The US has no woman controlling the beast - etc

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35 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You left out the woman riding the beast who is the mother of harlots. The US just doesn't fit your speculations. The US has no woman controlling the beast - etc

I think there is a direct correlation between the Mother of harlots and the Whore of Babylon.  The Whore produces children and some of those children become harlots, so the Whore then becomes the Mother of those harlots, with the primary purpose of getting gain, or mammon.

Beasts represent nations of people, not just one person but groups of people.

Babylon was the great marketplace of the known world in the ancient past.  People came from all over to trade there.  Think of how Wall Street in the US of A fulfills that role today.  We are all in the world but our primary goal should not be to get gain, or mammon.

Edited by Ahab
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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

That is an inaccurate paraphrase of what our Savior actually said through Nephi, judging by what I have seen him say about that..

Incorrect, Here are the words pertaining to this subject spoken by the Savior himself.

8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel (the Lamanites), verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them (the displacement of the Lamanites from their homelands onto reservations), and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them. (3 Nephi :16)

Edited by teddyaware
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6 hours ago, teddyaware said:

and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, 

That sounds to me a great deal like ‘America is the greatest nation in the whole world’ (meaning Americans are the greatest or at least those they see as Americans).

Edited by Calm
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28 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Incorrect, Here are the words pertaining to this subject spoken by the Savior himself.

8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel (the Lamanites), verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them (the displacement of the Lamanites from their homelands onto reservations), and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them. (3 Nephi :16)

To my way of thinking, Gentiles are people who are not or who have not aligned themselves with the people our Lord calls his people, which are not only the Jews or the nation of Israel but also his Church, wherever they live.   

So at that day when the Gentiles... shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth... considering themselves to be better than our Lord's people, wherever his people live...then they will be in very big trouble.

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29 minutes ago, Calm said:

That sounds to me a great deal like ‘America is the greatest nation in the whole world’ (meaningful Americans are the greatest or at least those they see as Americans).

People of England think they are really great people, too.  To the point of being extremely snooty, even.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

That sounds to me a great deal like ‘America is the greatest nation in the whole world’ (meaningful Americans are the greatest or at least those they see as Americans).

The words that immediately follow the Lords prophecy, that the promised land gentiles of the latter-days will be lifted up in pride above all other nations on the earth, indicate the pride spoken of is the kind of haughty arrogance that is born of wickedness, vanity, narcissism and rebellion against God, not the kind of simpleminded flag waving exuberance that’s inspired by excesses of idolatrous patriotic fervor.

...and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. (3 Nephi 16)

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think there is a direct correlation between the Mother of harlots and the Whore of Babylon.  The Whore produces children and some of those children become harlots, so the Whore then becomes the Mother of those harlots, with the primary purpose of getting gain, or mammon.

They are one in the same.

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Beasts represent nations of people, not just one person but groups of people.

The Beast is Rome or the nation of Rome. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was saying it was one person. A horn can be one person, or just referring to a ruling office.

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Babylon was the great marketplace of the known world in the ancient past.  People came from all over to trade there.  Think of how Wall Street in the US of A fulfills that role today.  We are all in the world but our primary goal should not be to get gain, or mammon.

So was Rome which fulfills Revelation by getting rich off of war. Her merchants sold all the implements of war. If you are insinuating that the US is the first beast which rose out of the sea, then who is the woman riding the beast? That great city which killed the prophets? Yeah, that is not the US. Gav, (and you if you are agreeing with him) are just wrong. 

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40 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The words that immediately follow the Lords prophecy, that the promised land gentiles of the latter-days will be lifted up in pride above all other nations on the earth, indicate the pride spoken of is the kind of haughty arrogance that is born of wickedness, vanity, narcissism and rebellion against God, not the kind of simpleminded flag waving exuberance that’s inspired by excesses of idolatrous patriotic fervor.

...and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. (3 Nephi 16)

True. But I can see the “idolatrous patriotic fervor“ (love the phrase) as being a first step as it may work well as a justification for immorality (‘we need to protect...’).

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24 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

They are one in the same.

As I said.  The Whore of all the Earth didn't become a Mother (the Mother of harlots) until she had children.

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The Beast is Rome or the nation of Rome.

Which beast are you talking about?  There are many beasts described in the book of Revelation.

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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was saying it was one person.

I wasn't saying you were saying it was one person.  I was saying beasts represent nations or groups of people, not only one person.

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A horn can be one person, or just referring to a ruling office.

Yes, any person with power to rule a nation.

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So was Rome which fulfills Revelation by getting rich off of war. Her merchants sold all the implements of war. If you are insinuating that the US is the first beast which rose out of the sea, then who is the woman riding the beast?

I would say either the Whore of all the Earth or the Mother of harlots, depending on whether or not she had any children at that time.  Or maybe just one of the Mother's daughters who was also a harlot.

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That great city which killed the prophets? Yeah, that is not the US. Gav, (and you if you are agreeing with him) are just wrong. 

Which great city do you think is being referred to there?  I am not sure on that point.

Edited by Ahab
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When Nephi spoke these words in 600 BC,  the great powers of the world were Babylon and it’s rival Egypt, with the Hebrews caught up in their territorial and ideological rivalry. The period of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century saw a similar rivalry between France and it’s global rival Spain, which also threatened the Protestant territories and their religious freedoms. We could assume that global Babylon in the 6th Century BC included both Egypt and Babylon, and their modern counterpart in our era.

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11 minutes ago, Jracforr said:

When Nephi spoke these words in 600 BC,  the great powers of the world were Babylon and it’s rival Egypt, with the Hebrews caught up in their territorial and ideological rivalry. The period of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century saw a similar rivalry between France and it’s global rival Spain, which also threatened the Protestant territories and their religious freedoms. We could assume that global Babylon in the 6th Century BC included both Egypt and Babylon, and their modern counterpart in our era.

US and China?  Or US and Russia?  Any other contenders?

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6 hours ago, Ahab said:

People of England think they are really great people, too.  To the point of being extremely snooty, even.

I have never been in a country where most did not see it as great, enlightened etc (only four countries tested so far, so hardly a decent sample, lol) and most people strongly defend their country against criticism by outsiders from what I have seen. 
 

Still there is a certain unique aggressive slant to American patriotism that I can’t really define and it seems like what it is to be American isn’t perceived the same by others either:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-americans-look-to-the-rest-of-the-world/

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On 8/13/2020 at 3:49 AM, The Nehor said:

Based on the description of its desires and product I suspect the whore is hyperindividualistic crony capitalism with a generous dose of gadiantonistic combinations thrown in.

I see the "crony" in crony capitalism as the "combination" in gadiantonistic/secret combinations and "off shore tax haven wealth" as some of the secret parts.

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The region called Babylonia in Mesopotamia, is the geographic equivalent of Lombardy in Europe, which may indicate that the Babylonian bloodline is carried into  Europe by the Lombards, who are now intermingled with a few other ethnic Europeans, including the French and English. The latter-day Neo-Babylonian Empire, would therefore be from one or the other of these two nations.

Edited by Jracforr
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1 hour ago, Jracforr said:

The region called Babylonia in Mesopotamia, is the geographic equivalent of Lombardy in Europe

New concept for me, could you elaborate? Please!

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On 8/13/2020 at 4:43 PM, california boy said:

These prophesies seem to be vague enough so that each generation can apply the imagery to the current dominant country/ruler who is in power.  They always become what the prophecy "must" be talking about.  This speculation has been going on since the Bible first started being written.   

This is an accurate historical statement however we are told that certain prophecies will be understood correctly in the times that they are fulfilled

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5 hours ago, gav said:

New concept for me, could you elaborate? Please!

It is a new concept to me also, as I have recently been made to understand , that the world’s Physical and Human Geography follows a specific pattern, as I implied in my comment. Maybe others will eventually see and understand as I have, but for now I can only submit it as an unsubstantiated theory. 

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On 8/13/2020 at 1:56 AM, The Nehor said:

China is crony capitalism. The communist thing just stayed on the paperwork.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek; but it’s still perhaps worth noting that China’s recent predations on its neighbors on land and sea, its treatment of the Uyghurs, its lockdown of Hong Kong, and its treatment of Christians generally go a little beyond what we Yanks typically think of as “crony capitalism”.

I have no idea whether the “mother of Harlots” is an actual political/corporate institution or, if so, whether that institution should be the Roman Empire/the Catholic Church/the Templars/the Freemasons/the Illuminati/Hollywood/something else.  But I think a person who floats the idea that the “mother of Harlots” is the modern United States, without floating China or the other modern totalitarian states and international troublemakers as other serious contenders for the title, is probably saying more about their own political sympathies and/or nationalistic biases than about anything of any theological or spiritual import.

Edited by mgy401
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The OP question has got some good discussion going. Lots of diversity of opinion out there and not very much consensus it seems... Here is something else to stir into the mix that I have not seen raised yet. 

Isaiah, Daniel, John the Revelator and Nephi among others use geographical designations that would have been plain to ancient readers but are easily missed by modern readers.

Earth, Sea/Isles of the Sea, Rivers.

 

Earth - denotes the areas accessible by land. Syria, Anatolia and surrounds. Also a name for Asia Minor but incorporating the surrounding regions.

 

Sea - denotes the areas that were traveled to by sailing the Mediterranean. Greece, its isles and Western Europe. Nephi denotes the promised land as an isle of the sea. Isaiah prophesies often of earth, sea and isles.

 

Rivers - refers to Tigris and Euphrates. Mesopotamia and surrounds. Sometimes sources are added to expand this region to include much of the middle east.

 

In more modern language Earth is Central, Seas are the West and Rivers are East in relation to the Holy Land.

Daniels chapters, when a geography is designated, follow the sequence - Earth, Sea, Rives so does Revelation in multiple instances. Check out the start of the seven trumpets and vials sequences.

These geographical designations help pinpoint the various beasts and their intrigues more easily by looking at where they arise and their demise.

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3 hours ago, mgy401 said:

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek; but it’s still perhaps worth noting that China’s recent predations on its neighbors on land and sea, its treatment of the Uyghurs, its lockdown of Hong Kong, and its treatment of Christians generally go a little beyond what we Yanks typically think of as “crony capitalism”.

I have no idea whether the “mother of Harlots” is an actual political/corporate institution or, if so, whether that institution should be the Roman Empire/the Catholic Church/the Templars/the Freemasons/the Illuminati/Hollywood/something else.  But I think a person who floats the idea that the “mother of Harlots” is the modern United States, without floating China or the other modern totalitarian states and international troublemakers as other serious contenders for the title, is probably saying more about their own political sympathies and/or nationalistic biases than about anything of any theological or spiritual import.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was not born in China it was born in the United States. The United States was basically a Christian Nation and now we have turned our backs on God as a nation. I don't see China being guilty of this. As a nation we will be judged harshly for turning our backs on the knowledge we have been given. What have we done with the opportunities and resources we've been given? We used to do good now we party and riot.

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16 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was not born in China it was born in the United States. The United States was basically a Christian Nation and now we have turned our backs on God as a nation. I don't see China being guilty of this. As a nation we will be judged harshly for turning our backs on the knowledge we have been given. What have we done with the opportunities and resources we've been given? We used to do good now we party and riot.

I dunno.  I can’t call myself an expert on this; but AFAIK Babylon hadn’t accepted and then rejected God either.  It was simply a non-believing bully of an empire,  had been that way as long as anyone could remember, and took special delight in persecuting decent people wherever it could find them.  

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5 hours ago, mgy401 said:

I dunno.  I can’t call myself an expert on this; but AFAIK Babylon hadn’t accepted and then rejected God either.  It was simply a non-believing bully of an empire,  had been that way as long as anyone could remember, and took special delight in persecuting decent people wherever it could find them.  

Read Daniel again. Nebuchadnezzar came to know and respect the God of Daniel, or just Google him. There is a good article in Forbes that paraphrases his relationship with God. It's in an article about Kanye West's play called Nebuchadnezzar. I'd post a link but I'd have to fire up the laptop. 

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13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Read Daniel again. Nebuchadnezzar came to know and respect the God of Daniel, or just Google him. There is a good article in Forbes that paraphrases his relationship with God. It's in an article about Kanye West's play called Nebuchadnezzar. I'd post a link but I'd have to fire up the laptop. 

So . . . “Babylon” is a metaphor for a latter-day empire of evil apostates; except that the real Babylon was actually kind of good?

This is why I’ve sort of washed my hands of end-times-study.  

Edited by mgy401
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