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Is the Usa Babylon the Great, the Whore and Mother of Harlots of Revelation


gav

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In the winding up scenes an entity emerges powerful enough to sit upon the universally powerful beast that proceeded it.

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So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Is this the hegemonic final unipower of the USA, presiding over secular globalism or is this the entire western hegemony that dominates the global south and east?

Lets consider the story of the USA especially for @Ahab sake after much insistence.

Edited by gav
for Ahab
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2 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I think the Acapolypse is mostly fake.  Otherwise the Brethren would quote from it more.  

Or perhaps it is meat and not milk?

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27 minutes ago, gav said:

Is this the hegemonic final unipower of the USA, presiding over secular globalism or is this the entire western hegemony that dominates the global south and east?

Nope. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I don't believe God requires the widow in my ward with 8 kids to be an exegete to be saved.  Nor the guy who owns a movie studio. 

Yup, in that context milk saves us but meat adds flavour.

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6 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Nephi would disagree, per 1 Nephi 14:20-27. I imagine the Brethren quote from it less because there are more pressing things to discuss in General Conference and they don't have the time/expertise to get their hearers appropriately equipped with the tools of exegesis. 

Returning to Nephi's view, he didn't seem to think so. Referring to 1 Nephi 14 again, he identifies the whore of all the earth as "the great and abominable church" which is among all nations. It is operative before the American revolutions are prefigured in 1 Nephi 13, and 1 Nephi 14:1-3 says that the Gentiles need to harden their hearts to avoid falling into the pit which has been dug for them by the great and abominable church. There's a distinction of the entities here.

I think that interpreting these things to be specific countries is looking too narrowly. Nephi certainly saw the church of the devil as a global phenomenon above all nations. This US-as-great-whore seems to me like an inverse of the US-centric view that runs amok in a lot of exegesis in the Restored Church. 

In 3 Nephi: 16, the Lord does prophesy that in the last days the gentiles on the promised land will become the most wicked people and nation on the face of the earth. So at very least, we can say the United States will become the most wicked nation among all the other wicked nations of the world prior to the Second Coming.

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

The Lord goes on to say that these wicked gentiles will be utterly destroyed and swept clean off the face of the lands they inhabit..

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7 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In 3 Nephi: 16, the Lord does prophesy that in the last days the gentiles on the promised land will become the most wicked people and nation on the face of the earth. So at very least, we can say the United States will become the most wicked nation among all the other wicked nations of the world prior to the Second Coming.

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

The Lord goes on to say that these wicked gentiles will be utterly destroyed and swept clean off the face of the lands they inhabit..

Sounds right to me. 

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43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Based on the description of its desires and product I suspect the whore is hyperindividualistic crony capitalism with a generous dose of gadiantonistic combinations thrown in.

^ this. I think the love of money and stuff which almost always precedes the rise of secret combinations and the collapse of society in the Book of Mormon will do the trick.

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7 hours ago, Amulek said:

Nope. 

 

Any suggestions?

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Based on the description of its desires and product I suspect the whore is hyperindividualistic crony capitalism with a generous dose of gadiantonistic combinations thrown in.

I can think of a number of recent political and economic systems that all fill the bill. 

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3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The Lord goes on to say that these wicked gentiles will be utterly destroyed and swept clean off the face of the lands they inhabit

True, but plagues and war and famine do not separate the righteous from the wicked here on the earth. I think a lot of good people get swept up too.  

I find it interesting that Nephi speaks of the wicked as belonging to a CHURCH . Why that designation instead of a nation or whatever?

Edited by strappinglad
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56 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

True, but plagues and war and famine do not separate the righteous from the wicked here on the earth. I think a lot of good people get swept up too.  

 

The righteous will die in wars and famine.   The righteous also die in car accidents, old age, and other things.  We all die of something and its part of the plan.  So if righteous people are swept off as well, all is well with them.  They pass through the veil happy and victorious. 

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1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

True, but plagues and war and famine do not separate the righteous from the wicked here on the earth. I think a lot of good people get swept up too.  

I ran across this quote from Joseph Smith recently, saying exactly that:

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Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839–42, p.162
I explained concerning the coming of the Son of Man; also that it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all the judgments, whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and "the righteous shall hardly escape;" still many of the Saints will escape, for the just shall live by faith; yet many of the righteous shall fall a prey to disease, to pestilence, etc., by reason of the weakness of the flesh, and yet be saved in the Kingdom of God. So that it is an unhallowed principle to say that such and such have transgressed because they have been prayed upon by disease or death, for all flesh is subject to death; and the Savior has said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (September 29, 1839.) DHC 4:11.   (see also: History, 1838–1856, volume C-1 [2 November 1838–31 July 1842] p.967 and  History p.968)

Edit:  I found the Joseph Smith Papers text of the above interesting in that it seems to confirm a view I have of the so called "rapture", the catching up described in places like the familiar 1 Thessalonians 4:13–5:10, but also in D&C 45:44-45, 88:97, and 109:74-75.  But the interesting part is crossed out in the manuscript.   This is the crossed out part in bold, from the p.967 link above:

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Explained Concerning the coming of the Son of Man &c— that all will be raised to meet him, but the righteous will remain with him in the cloud, whilst all the proud and all that do wickedly will have to return to the Earth, and suffer his vengeance, which he will take upon them, this is the second death &c

That's how I have always imagined the timing of that event, but I didn't realize that there was support for that view anywhere, although now I'm left to wonder why that part was crossed out :) 

Edited by InCognitus
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1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

I find it interesting that Nephi speaks of the wicked as belonging to a CHURCH . Why that designation instead of a nation or whatever?

Nebuchadnezzar's molten image made of 4 metals looks at the sequence of gentile domination from a military might perspective(man + metal = military)

Daniel 7's 4 devouring beasts look at the dominion of gentile empires from an economic perspective (devouring predators (the bulls and the bears of todays stock markets))

Daniel 8's Ram and Goat will all their horns looks at the progression of gentile powers domination over the Holy Land (pushy, head butting ungulates)

Nephi looks at the contrasting spiritual fortunes during gentile times and the oppressed saints (hence two churches) 

 

Each metaphor or figurative illustration covers certain aspects and facets of Israel's long dispersion, subjugation and captivity during the times of the gentiles but underneath certain stages do represent actual kingdoms/empires/nations and stages in history etc.

Edited by gav
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3 hours ago, mgy401 said:

Communist China, natch.  

China is crony capitalism. The communist thing just stayed on the paperwork.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I can think of a number of recent political and economic systems that all fill the bill. 

At the top of all degenerate systems it is almost always a form of crony capitalism but the only semblance of a market operates on a more global scale. Authoritarian communism and socialism and most other -isms gives the elite all the capital. The advantage is you don’t have to let anyone else participate. The disadvantage is the risk that they rise up and kill you every so often.

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4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

True, but plagues and war and famine do not separate the righteous from the wicked here on the earth. I think a lot of good people get swept up too.  

I find it interesting that Nephi speaks of the wicked as belonging to a CHURCH . Why that designation instead of a nation or whatever?

It’s referred to as a church because it’s comprised of people from any and all parts of the world who have deliberately aligned themselves in opposition to the Church of Christ and the kingdom of God. In his last General Conference address, President Benson testified that the time will come when the issues pertaining to what constitutes righteousness and wickedness will become so perfectly clear that people of the world will no longer have the luxury of being uncommitted fence sitters, but when that day comes the entire human race will eventually have to choose between being aligned with either the kingdom of God or the kingdom of the devil.

Just as the Church of Christ is an international organization, the church of the devil is also an international organization whose members will eventually all be unified in knowing opposition to the teachings and principles of the Church and Kingdom of God. Sadly, it appears the worst of the worst within the kingdom of the devil will be gentile Americans. But this should come as no surprise when one considers the fact that the once enlightened Nephite dissenters on the promised land were consciously much more evil than the largely ignorant Lamanites.

As to your first point, the following verses from Nephi’s vision appear to indicate that, at least in general, the members of the Church of Christ will be protected and better off than the members of the church of the devil, for they will have to face the brunt of God’s latter-day judgements of destruction upon the wicked.

1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.
6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken. (1 Nephi 14)

So while it’s true that some of the righteous saints will surely face hardships and even violence and death as collateral damage when the Lord’s judgements of the last days are poured out upon the wicked, nevertheless, in large part the faithful saints will be blessed and protected while the wicked suffer the dreadful consequences of their folly and rebellion.. 

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These prophesies seem to be vague enough so that each generation can apply the imagery to the current dominant country/ruler who is in power.  They always become what the prophecy "must" be talking about.  This speculation has been going on since the Bible first started being written.   

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7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Sadly, it appears the worst of the worst within the kingdom of the devil will be gentile Americans.

Not solely Americans. though.  Some people from England and India and Russia and China and Japan and some other continents are and can be pretty bad, too.  Anyone who places more value on getting gain/mammon than on doing the will of God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon

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13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not solely Americans. though.  Some people from England and India and Russia and China and Japan and some other continents are and can be pretty bad, too.  Anyone who places more value on getting gain/mammon than on doing the will of God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon

True. The kingdom of the devil is worldwide. But the Savior prophesied that those who would be lifted up in pride more than any other nation would be the gentiles on the promised land. And at least for me, there’s no reason to doubt or wonder about this any longer. 

Edited by teddyaware
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4 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

True. The kingdom of the devil is worldwide. But the Savior prophesied that those who would be lifted up in pride more than any other nation would be the gentiles on the promised land. And at least for me, there’s no reason to doubt or wonder about this any longer. 

That is an inaccurate paraphrase of what our Savior actually said through Nephi, judging by what I have seen him say about that..

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14 hours ago, gav said:

Any suggestions?

I think it's interesting how most people of the world/Babylon consider the USA/America to be the ideal of how all other countries should be.  Essentially the pride and joy, in their minds, of the whole world.  Primarily because of America's free enterprise rules and laws.

So while there are those who are "of this world" all over the planet, in every country, America is generally considered the world's favorite country, because of how the economy is in America.  And when I say America I usually am referring to the US of A.

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