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Questions on Margaret Barker


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10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not really. Sounds like he accepts some Israelites had apostate beliefs, including kings. 

I didn't really understand his post, actually.  My post about Moloch had nothing to do with kings, so I wondered why he was bringing it up.

I think Robert thinks I am just an idiot, which describes me some of the time.  But he posts in his own name so I try and pay attention. 

Edited by Bob Crockett
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As far as starting, if you are a Nibleyophile, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God.  That background helped me.   If not, Temple Theology: An Introduction, which a 100 page summary of her

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/default.htm I find her really interesting.  She does a good job setting the stage for the BoM in asserting that Josiah's reforms and the deuteronomists were t

I believe her primary focus is on pre-exilic worship and theology.

4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

...................  Sounds like you think that is legit.  

As Big Daddy used to say: "Mendacity, mendacity."

4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

.................... your love of Margaret Barker, ..........................  And she lacks the credentials where she ought to have them.  And people like Kevin who defend her credentials blissfully seem unaware of what you went through to get your doctorate ..............................

I respect Barker's work, and she has a proper doctorate, even though that is immaterial.  No one needs credentials.  What they need is knowledge and the ability to express it.  And (for the fifth time), I do not have a doctorate.

Of course, the obfuscation is typical of you, Bob.  You really need to focus on the relevant issues instead.

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3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I don't insult posters, and I don't particularly insult them anonymously.  I think that someday God is going to call people on the carpet who post with other than their real names, when discussing the faith.   However, I take exceptions to posters' views.   

You don't?  Well, that's a relief.  (Such a proclamation might strike some of us as an attempt to convince us it's raining while peeing on our legs, but, to each his own, I suppose.)

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You don't?  Well, that's a relief.  (Such a proclamation might strike some of us as an attempt to convince us it's raining while peeing on our legs, but, to each his own, I suppose.

Not worth continuing to beat me over this.  Anonymous posters who insult have zero credibility because they are anonymous.  One should not insult at all.

Look. I'm willing to engage with you seriously if you post with your real name.  Until then ....

Edited by Bob Crockett
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12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As Big Daddy used to say: "Mendacity, mendacity."

I respect Barker's work, and she has a proper doctorate, even though that is immaterial.  No one needs credentials.  What they need is knowledge and the ability to express it.  And (for the fifth time), I do not have a doctorate.

Of course, the obfuscation is typical of you, Bob.  You really need to focus on the relevant issues instead.

I think I have focused upon her methods in prior posts. Others have as well.

Sorry.  I thought you had a doctorate. 

She does not have a real doctorate.  We've been through this. Was her doctorate awarded by the secular side of academic studies?  No.   Did she write a dissertation and defend it?  No.  Did she have to teach as a graduate student as part of her doctoral studies?  No.  Was she ever "in residence"?  No.  Does her doctorate give her recognition to teach as a doctor in institutions other than the place where she got her doctorate?  No.

Is she respected by her peers in publishing and writing,?   That is iffy.  Not more than someone like me who at least got a degree with "doctor" in it.  Sniff sniff. 

How would you feel about a physician operating on your child who obtained his medical degree not by the dint of hard work in a medical school but because of life experience?   Or going to a therapist who obtained her doctorate not by writing a dissertation at an accredited university but by just being named by her parents "doctor.?"

Latter-day Saint scholarship should not include this kind of hocus pocus scholarship. 

Edited by Bob Crockett
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16 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

That's kind of insulting.. .

(Have you read his paper?  It is interminable.)  

You can’t take it, but you sure are good at dishing it.  Your insults seem to be interminable in every thread I have read you in.

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32 minutes ago, pogi said:

You can’t take it, but you sure are good at dishing it.  Your insults seem to be interminable in every thread I have read you in.

I guess you could see it that way.  I like or dislike papers; what they say and how they are written.  An interminable paper is endemic to religious scholarship, although some writers (like Dr. Peterson or Bart Erhman) are very good about communicating.  For instance, I think that Dr. Peterson's paper on Asherah is one of the most brightly papers I've ever read but I disagree with its contents.  I love Bart Erhman's books but think that nobody really makes an effort to edit them.

I try my best not to say that somebody is a cretin or arrogant or obtuse.  I apologize for offending feelings.  I can see how that happens. 

Do you find it insulting to be accused of not reading somebody's work product before commenting on it?  I mean, that kind of comment goes not to the merits but to the nature of a person.  

Edited by Bob Crockett
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3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Not worth continuing to beat me over this.  Anonymous posters who insult have zero credibility because they are anonymous.  One should not insult at all.

Look. I'm willing to engage with you seriously if you post with your real name.  Until then ....

You found out the real name of the poster in the thread that I linked to.  Have you made the same offer to him, and have you apologized for treating him shabbily?  (Don't worry; I ain't holdin' my breath!  Then I'd be ugly ... and blue!) :o:shok:

P.S.: And you can drop the charade that attempts to convince us that your dismissals simply are about whether posters are anonymous or not.  Kevin Christensen posts under his real name, and you seem to have completely dismissed his work, as well.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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20 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You found out the real name of the poster in the thread that I linked to.  Have you made the same offer to him, and have you apologized for treating him shabbily?  (Don't worry; I ain't holdin' my breath!  Then I'd be ugly ... and blue!) :o:shok:

Try not to make this about me and instead please concentrate on the opening post.  If you wish to have more dialogue about me, you know where to find me and can have email exchanges with me.

And I like Kevin and tend to agree with everything he says except that pertaining to post-exilic scholarship.  I think what he relies on is a false feminist narrative not founded upon pre-exilic support.  

Edited by Bob Crockett
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5 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

.......................

She does not have a real doctorate.  We've been through this. Was her doctorate awarded by the secular side of academic studies?  No.   Did she write a dissertation and defend it?  No.  Did she have to teach as a graduate student as part of her doctoral studies?  No.  Was she ever "in residence"?  No.  Does her doctorate give her recognition to teach as a doctor in institutions other than the place where she got her doctorate?  No.

Is she respected by her peers in publishing and writing,?   That is iffy.  ......................

Latter-day Saint scholarship should not include this kind of hocus pocus scholarship. 

False.  You are defining terms for others, as though you actually have a say in such things.  You do not.  Institutions of higher learning in England do not follow the cheap and easy path of typical American institutions.  Moreover, those staid institutions come from a powerful tradition of religious orders -- the robes, as Hugh Nibley once pointed out, are robes of the priesthood.  Those with the authority can award a doctorate based on merit, regardless of your personal appraisal.

Dr Barker is a past president of the Society for Old Testament Study.  Your ad hominem attacks on her supposed "hocus pocus scholarship," and the like, remind me of non-Momron condemnation of LDS scholarship.  People in glass houses, Bob, shouldn't throw stones.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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40 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False.  You are defining terms for others, as though you actually have a say in such things.  You do not.  Institutions of higher learning in England do not follow the cheap and easy path of typical American institutions.  Moreover, those staid institutions come from a powerful tradition of religious orders -- the robes, as Hugh Nibley once pointed out, are robes of the priesthood.  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.] Those with the authority can award a doctorate based on merit, regardless of your personal appraisal.

Dr Barker is a past president of the Society for Old Testament Study.  Your ad hominem attacks on her supposed "hocus pocus scholarship," and the like, remind me of non-Momron condemnation of LDS scholarlship.  People in glass houses, Bob, shouldn't throw stones.

In a prayer at commencement, no less! ;):D   How did he put it?  "We're gathered here, clothed in the black robes of a false priesthood ..."?  :D:rofl::D

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4 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

In a prayer at commencement, no less! ;):D   How did he put it?  "We're gathered here, clothed in the black robes of a false priesthood ..."?  :D:rofl::D

Nibley was an iconoclast with a flair for the dramatic. Great moments ensued. 

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37 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

In a prayer at commencement, no less! ;):D   How did he put it?  "We're gathered here, clothed in the black robes of a false priesthood ..."?  :D:rofl::D

Yeh.  He actually said it twice.  Originally during a commencement prayer, and then he quoted it again at the Fall 1983 Commencement.  I was there.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 People in glass houses, Bob, shouldn't throw stones.

What does that mean?  What are you implying?

I think Shaquille O'Neill has an honorary doctorate.  They are frivolous.  Hers was awarded by a clergyman and not by an academic.  

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17 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

What does that mean?  What are you implying?

I think Shaquille O'Neill has an honorary doctorate.  They are frivolous.  Hers was awarded by a clergyman and not by an academic.  

Regarding Rowan Williams, then Archbishop of Canterbury, he is very much an academic, not at all frivolous, and well placed to consider the aptness of awarding Margaret Barker a degree based on the significance of her work, notable her Temple Themes in Christian Worship.

Quote

Having spent much of his earlier career as an academic at the universities of Cambridge and Oxford successively, Williams speaks three languages and reads at least nine.[4] After standing down as Archbishop, Williams took up the positions of Master of Magdalene College, Cambridge, in 2013, and Chancellor of the University of South Wales in 2014.[5][6] He also delivered the Gifford Lectures at the University of Edinburgh in 2013.

...

Williams did not have a formal curacy until 1980, when he served at St George's, Chesterton, until 1983, after having been appointed a university lecturer in divinity at Cambridge. In 1984 he became dean and chaplain of Clare College and, in 1986 at the age of 36, he was appointed to the Lady Margaret Professor of Divinity at Oxford, a position which brought with it appointment to a residentiary canonry of Christ Church Cathedral. In 1989 he received the degree of Doctor of Divinity (DD) and, in 1990, was elected a Fellow of the British Academy (FBA).[15]

...

On 17 January 2013, Williams was admitted as the 35th Master of Magdalene College, Cambridge.[38] He was also made an honorary Professor of Contemporary Christian Thought by the University of Cambridge in 2017.[39][40] On 18 June 2013, the University of South Wales announced his appointment as its new chancellor, the ceremonial head of the university.[41]

On the Degree.

https://tandtclark.typepad.com/ttc/2008/07/margaret-barker.html

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

What does that mean?  What are you implying?

I think Shaquille O'Neill has an honorary doctorate.  They are frivolous.  Hers was awarded by a clergyman and not by an academic.  

And yet frivolity is the strongest suite you bring to this question.  Nothing serious or academic at all in your frivolous comments.  For shame, Bob.

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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh.  He actually said it twice.  Originally during a commencement prayer, and then he quoted it again at the Fall 1983 Commencement.  I was there.

You watched history bein' made, 'eh? ;) (You've done that a few times, and in matters much more significant than this.  We're from different generations, but I would've liked to have been a fly on the wall for some of the things you've witnessed and experienced.)  :)

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3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You watched history bein' made, 'eh? ;) (You've done that a few times, and in matters much more significant than this.  We're from different generations, but I would've liked to have been a fly on the wall for some of the things you've witnessed and experienced.)  :)

Are you sure that we are from different generations?  I'm 79.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Are you sure that we are from different generations?  I'm 79.

Yes.  Although, when it comes right down to it, as the offspring of God, both you and I are Ageless, Eternal Beings. :)

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On 8/11/2020 at 9:27 AM, Spammer said:

I'm sure he'd be disappointed if he knew an unintended outcome was the result, but I probably wouldn't be a Christian now, otherwise.

Or he might rejoice that you have not rejected Jesus as you would have, and have found peace in your new religion?

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20 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Neither of those chaps looks like Dr. Barker.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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3 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Click on the photo to get the full view.  She's on the right of Rowan Williams.

Best,

Kevin C.

Lest we mistake her for Rowan, right? ;):D

Sorry.  Couldn't resist! :huh::unknw:

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37 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Lest we mistake her for Rowan, right? ;):D

Sorry.  Couldn't resist! :huh::unknw:

Nowadays you cannot be too careful.

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5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Click on the photo to get the full view.  She's on the right of Rowan Williams.

Best,

Kevin C.

 

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Lest we mistake her for Rowan, right? ;):D

Sorry.  Couldn't resist! :huh::unknw:

 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nowadays you cannot be too careful.

Yeah, no kidding! :rolleyes:

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