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Please Tear Apart My Logic/Reasoning on the Correlations and Uses of the Numbers 4, 7 and 10 in Apocalyptic Prophecy.


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4 hours ago, Ahab said:

I want a story.  Not a puzzle to solve.  

Based on what I do know I would say the 4 relates to the number of people/kingdoms/realms involved in the story and the 7 relates to a time or the times or the duration/intensity of an event before whatever will happen next.

Puzzles have their place too.

313978031-Yoda-The-Empire-Strikes-Back.j

Besides the interpretation we can infer from the book of Daniel, that you state, we can find confirmed outside the book of Daniel and get even more clues as to what these numbers mean literally and how they are used symbolically.

Leviticus 26:

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26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.

Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

Verse 1: Reaffirms the Lords stance on Images(Nebuchadnezzar's Image of 4 metals)

Verse 2: The admonition to keep Sabbaths etc.  The first sabbath we learn of is the 7th day

Verse 3: Admonition to keep the 10 commandments

This verse is also an if-then conditional statement. The conditional blessings begin with...

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Then I will give you rain in due season....

culminating with this promise...

Quote

12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

The Lord then cites evidence of past fulfilment and the provides the warning.

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13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;

Based on another conditional statement...

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18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

The first instance of the phrase 7 times tied to some of the metals of Nebuchadnezzar's dream

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21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

The second instance of the phrase 7 times tied to wild beasts of Daniel's vision

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24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.

The Third instance of the phrase 7 times tied to captivity and the number 10

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27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;

28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

The 4th and final use of the words 7 times tied to Israel becoming beasts themselves

There follows all the terrors that the house of Israel would experience in its long dispersion... with a couple of reiterations of the previous themes of images, 7th days and captivity

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...and cut down your images...Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths...they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands;...

With a promise of eventual restoration and the contractual conditions and deed are signed by the Lord.

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44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.

45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.

The book of Daniel is modelled and encoded with the numbers and contract definitions of Leviticus 26. Daniel being an eye witness to the beginning fulfillments thereof during the Babylonian captivity.

In light of the above, how plausible is this statement?

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On 8/9/2020 at 5:40 AM, gav said:

Can we find something similar in Daniel 2?

The Image of 4 metals is sub-divided into 7. Head of Gold(1) Breast and arms of Silver(2) Belly and thighs of Brass(2) Legs and feet of Iron/clay(2) to produce a total of 7. The toes of the feet are then specifically mentioned later, of which we may assume there are 10. Therefore the image has 7 sub-divisions and 10 toes

Hows the flow of logic so far? and what reasoning is weak and requires more detail? Remember this is only the basic framework. Is it a firm foundation in its current form?

 

The only part that feels like a stretch to me is the Daniel 2 reasoning.  Any time you have to count subdivided parts and count toes etc. to find the numbers you are looking for, because the numbers you are looking for are never actually mentioned in the passage, it is a good sign that you are experiencing apohpenia.  If a number is significant to a passage, the passage will likely be direct with identifying the number without having to assume that the number "10" is significant because a passage mentioned "toes".  The passage also mentioned "feet" , should we then assume that the number 2 is significant?   I think if a number is significant to a passage, it would have mentioned 10 toes just as it mentioned 10 horns.  If the 10 horns represent future kings, it is hard to believe that 10 toes are in any way related.  

I just don't see the 7 heads and 10 horns as being anyway related to 7 subdivided parts of 4 metals and toes, of which we assume there are 10.

I think everything else looks pretty solid though, but you asked me to "tear you apart", so I did my best.  

Edited by pogi
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13 hours ago, gav said:

The book of Daniel is modelled and encoded with the numbers and contract definitions of Leviticus 26. Daniel being an eye witness to the beginning fulfillments thereof during the Babylonian captivity.

In light of the above, how plausible is this statement?

Yeah, I think so too, pretty much saying the same thing.  But I want to hear more about the US of A.  Do you know any more details about the story of the USA?

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On 8/10/2020 at 12:13 PM, gav said:

An interesting perspective, often true but I don't agree that things in the bible have nothing to do with time and history or timelines ever. How would you categorise Daniel chapter 2 in your view of the Bible?

Without reference to Hebrew language, transmission considerations, and other important things that MUST be considered before a scripture can be fully understood; so knowing that my observation will be limited;;

And using the key that all scriptures are to be likened to myself (i.e. I am Daniel; I am Nebuchadnezzar; the dream is about me);;

In reviewing chapter 2 yesterday so I could reply and also simply refresh myself, the thing that jumped out at me (energetically, I might add) was the rock from the mountain. First correspondence that immediately jumped to mind was the rock in the New Testament (when Jesus and Peter were conversing and giving that key). I didn't delve into that, though, just holding it loosely because I'm not ready to lay hold on Daniel for my own progression, only for purpose of making reply here;

Anyway, that rock is a rock IN ME. It is something that arises within me and has the capacity to shatter all the rest of the idols I hold. Liberating me.

So I will leave it at that, although Daniel is a treasure mine and one could talk for hours on it.

Bless you. :)

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25 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Without reference to Hebrew language, transmission considerations, and other important things that MUST be considered before a scripture can be fully understood; so knowing that my observation will be limited;;

And using the key that all scriptures are to be likened to myself (i.e. I am Daniel; I am Nebuchadnezzar; the dream is about me);;

In reviewing chapter 2 yesterday so I could reply and also simply refresh myself, the thing that jumped out at me (energetically, I might add) was the rock from the mountain. First correspondence that immediately jumped to mind was the rock in the New Testament (when Jesus and Peter were conversing and giving that key). I didn't delve into that, though, just holding it loosely because I'm not ready to lay hold on Daniel for my own progression, only for purpose of making reply here;

Anyway, that rock is a rock IN ME. It is something that arises within me and has the capacity to shatter all the rest of the idols I hold. Liberating me.

So I will leave it at that, although Daniel is a treasure mine and one could talk for hours on it.

Bless you. :)

Nice perspective! The scriptures have so many layers and facets. I see the progression of the 4 main empires(Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) that the jews (Daniel, a captive in Babylon) will be under in some form of captivity.  Ultimately the the stone cut out without hands is also the restoration of the gospel in the last days, that began with the revealing of the Gospel in former days. Without the ministry of Christ and Peter there would have been nothing to restore in our days. The gist for me that all earthly kingdoms, wealth and idols will eventually fall and be replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

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On 8/11/2020 at 6:29 PM, pogi said:

The only part that feels like a stretch to me is the Daniel 2 reasoning.  Any time you have to count subdivided parts and count toes etc. to find the numbers you are looking for, because the numbers you are looking for are never actually mentioned in the passage, it is a good sign that you are experiencing apohpenia.  If a number is significant to a passage, the passage will likely be direct with identifying the number without having to assume that the number "10" is significant because a passage mentioned "toes".  The passage also mentioned "feet" , should we then assume that the number 2 is significant?   I think if a number is significant to a passage, it would have mentioned 10 toes just as it mentioned 10 horns.  If the 10 horns represent future kings, it is hard to believe that 10 toes are in any way related.  

I just don't see the 7 heads and 10 horns as being anyway related to 7 subdivided parts of 4 metals and toes, of which we assume there are 10.

I think everything else looks pretty solid though, but you asked me to "tear you apart", so I did my best.  

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I agree that the Daniel 2 formulation, the way it is framed in this shortened context, does look a bit stretched because it does not use the numbers directly. You mention the number 2 or a pair of feet, which I chose not to mention in this brief intro... However the number 2 or pairs is actually the structural focus of the Chapter. From my perspective when a pair is used symbolically it is generally in the form of opposites. Let's take the creation account for instance. Light/dark, day/night, evening/morning, water/dry land, good/evil etc.etc. the list is endless.

Daniel 2 starts as follows:

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And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, 

It's the second chapter and the second year, Nebuchadnezzar is repeated and so is the word dream. This sentence looks suspiciously like it has been formulated this way to draw a readers attention to pairs. True to form the Chapter has many binary opposites I will point out the main two. The manufactured molten image vs the stone cut out without hands. The temporary kingdoms of this world vs the eternal kingdom of God etc.

The paired nature of the body parts also significant. The Babylonian empire was an absolute monarchy represented by the single head of Gold.

Medo-Persia had a King of Kings the chest and arms. Persia was also dominant over Media as there is a dominant hand and a sub-ordinate one. This is pointed out specifically in Daniel 7 by the bear raising up on one side and in Daniel 8 by the one horn of the ram being higher than the other. One again simply inferred in the earlier chapter and specifically pointed out in later chapters.

Under Alexander the Great and for a short time thereafter the Grecian empire was united, it was then divided under his generals and eventually settled to the two main divisions being the Seleucids to the north and the Ptolemaic dynasty to the south. The brass section consist of 1 belly later dividing into 2 thighs. The initial division among the 4 generals is represented by the four heads of the leopard in chapter 7.

Finally we get to the legs of iron and feet of iron and clay. Rome also had two centres of power and eventually even two emperors, one in the east and one in the west.

The toes are not mentioned in the context but are brought in as a separate and highlighted element latter in the interpretation of the dream.

There are many more detailed structures throughout the book where the number of items are just right for the themes in those sections and so I think that provides sufficient president to count lists and other inferred properties in certain of well structure areas.

Sorry for the long answer, but you are right. Presenting things in a shortened version may make certain conclusions look stretched and that someone could be suffering from apohpenia. Perhaps this answer leans you towards that diagnosis even more. 😉

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Posted (edited)
On 8/11/2020 at 7:14 PM, Ahab said:

Do you know any more details about the story of the USA?

I think it is time for the USA its own thread, starting now.

Edited by gav
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On 8/10/2020 at 10:10 PM, gav said:

Puzzles have their place too.

313978031-Yoda-The-Empire-Strikes-Back.j

Besides the interpretation we can infer from the book of Daniel, that you state, we can find confirmed outside the book of Daniel and get even more clues as to what these numbers mean literally and how they are used symbolically.

Leviticus 26:

Verse 1: Reaffirms the Lords stance on Images(Nebuchadnezzar's Image of 4 metals)

Verse 2: The admonition to keep Sabbaths etc.  The first sabbath we learn of is the 7th day

Verse 3: Admonition to keep the 10 commandments

This verse is also an if-then conditional statement. The conditional blessings begin with...

culminating with this promise...

The Lord then cites evidence of past fulfilment and the provides the warning.

Based on another conditional statement...

The first instance of the phrase 7 times tied to some of the metals of Nebuchadnezzar's dream

The second instance of the phrase 7 times tied to wild beasts of Daniel's vision

The Third instance of the phrase 7 times tied to captivity and the number 10

The 4th and final use of the words 7 times tied to Israel becoming beasts themselves

There follows all the terrors that the house of Israel would experience in its long dispersion... with a couple of reiterations of the previous themes of images, 7th days and captivity

With a promise of eventual restoration and the contractual conditions and deed are signed by the Lord.

The book of Daniel is modelled and encoded with the numbers and contract definitions of Leviticus 26. Daniel being an eye witness to the beginning fulfillments thereof during the Babylonian captivity.

In light of the above, how plausible is this statement?

The seven times of Leviticus cannot be directly correlated to Daniel although some are related. These are not four separate times of seven. You are reading too much into Daniel. The first time is in the wilderness after Egypt. The next time is Assyria. The next time is Babylon - then Persia - then Greece - then Rome. The last/7th time they are dispersed throughout the world(v.33), and are punished in the world - an example is the German holocaust. Then they are called back to serve the Lord in truth.

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