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Please Tear Apart My Logic/Reasoning on the Correlations and Uses of the Numbers 4, 7 and 10 in Apocalyptic Prophecy.


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In the interests of brevity I will lay out a basic framework first... We can get into the details once the foundation is laid.

Daniel 2: Nebuchadnezzar's dream is an Image composed of 4 metals. The first three are pure metals or alloys.(Gold, Silver, Brass) The legs and feet are composite, of Iron and Clay which break in pieces and bruise. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

Daniel 7: Daniel's vision of 4 beasts. The first three although, they have oddities, are recognisable (Lion, Bear, Leopard) The final beast is composite with great Iron teeth and nails of Brass which devours, breaks in pieces and stamps with its feet. It has 10 horns. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

For simplicity sake I will leave out the little horn, blasphemy etc. in this initial framework. It seems clear that that although many specifics in the dream differ there are significant structural similarities pointed out in bold.

Revelation 13: Beast rising from the Sea. Like a Leopard, it has feet of a Bear and a mouth of a Lion (the three beasts of Daniel 7 in reverse order). The Dragon gives him his power. First three are recognisable with last being mythical. Once again 4 Beasts are mentioned only this time they are composite into one, like the final beast of Daniel 7 that was composite with iron teeth and brass nails. This beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the Dragon and 7 heads and 10 horns takes us back a chapter to Revelation 12.

Revelation 12: A great red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns takes us to Revelation 17.

Revelation 17: The woman sits on a scarlet coloured beast with 7 heads and 10 horns.

In the above Revelation chapters the common theme is 7 heads and 10 horns. There are others but we may focus on this for now. We saw the final beast of Daniel 7 also had 10 horns if we add up all the heads of the 4 individual beasts from this chapter we also total 7 heads. One each, for the Lion, Bear and final beast and 4 from the leopard giving a total of 7. So Daniel 7 also contains 7 heads and 10 horns.

Can we find something similar in Daniel 2?

The Image of 4 metals is sub-divided into 7. Head of Gold(1) Breast and arms of Silver(2) Belly and thighs of Brass(2) Legs and feet of Iron/clay(2) to produce a total of 7. The toes of the feet are then specifically mentioned later, of which we may assume there are 10. Therefore the image has 7 sub-divisions and 10 toes

To summarise: all of the elements from these chapters are linked via the numbers 7 and 10. The two interpretations given for the two chapters in Daniel mentioned relate the progression of 4 kingdoms or empires. (Babylonian, Persian, Grecian and Roman). By the time we reach the Book of Revelation the first three empires have been conquered and amalgamated into the Roman Empire, hence in Revelation we only have the final 7 headed and 10 horned red/scarlet dragon/beast. This sequence of related visions is a timeline. Daniel gives a broad outline from the start in his day. John the Revelator gets into greater specifics from his day. The Red Dragon has crowns on its heads(the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 7 heads are 7 mountains or hills) and Rome was built on 7 hills. One context of Revelation 12 is the birth of Christ(the reason for the war in Heaven) when the ruling temporal power was Imperial Rome. Hence the heads have crowns.

By Revelation 13, the West Roman Empire has fallen and the kingdoms of Western Europe have arisen in its place. Hence the heads(Rome) have no crowns and the crowns are instead on the horns. Temporal power has now shifted to the mixture of latinic and germanic monarchies and later imperial empires of Western Europe represented by the horns(scriptural symbols of power and the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 10 horns are 10 future kings).

By Revelation 17, Imperial Europe has crumbled. Monarchies that are left in Western Europe are facile and an adulterous non-monarchal power dominates them. (the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the whore is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth)There are no more crowns.

Hows the flow of logic so far? and what reasoning is weak and requires more detail? Remember this is only the basic framework. Is it a firm foundation in its current form?

 

Edited by gav
fixed typo in heading
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Seems legit. 

Real helpful, I know. And like we've been talking about in the Ritner thread, symbols have meaning in the eye of the beholder. But this seems like a valid interpretation. 

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5 hours ago, gav said:

In the interests of brevity I will lay out a basic framework first... We can get into the details once the foundation is laid.

Daniel 2: Nebuchadnezzar's dream is an Image composed of 4 metals. The first three are pure metals or alloys.(Gold, Silver, Brass) The legs and feet are composite, of Iron and Clay which break in pieces and bruise. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

Daniel 7: Daniel's vision of 4 beasts. The first three although, they have oddities, are recognisable (Lion, Bear, Leopard) The final beast is composite with great Iron teeth and nails of Brass which devours, breaks in pieces and stamps with its feet. It has 10 horns. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

For simplicity sake I will leave out the little horn, blasphemy etc. in this initial framework. It seems clear that that although many specifics in the dream differ there are significant structural similarities pointed out in bold.

Revelation 13: Beast rising from the Sea. Like a Leopard, it has feet of a Bear and a mouth of a Lion (the three beasts of Daniel 7 in reverse order). The Dragon gives him his power. First three are recognisable with last being mythical. Once again 4 Beasts are mentioned only this time they are composite into one, like the final beast of Daniel 7 that was composite with iron teeth and brass nails. This beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the Dragon and 7 heads and 10 horns takes us back a chapter to Revelation 12.

Revelation 12: A great red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns takes us to Revelation 17.

Revelation 17: The woman sits on a scarlet coloured beast with 7 heads and 10 horns.

In the above Revelation chapters the common theme is 7 heads and 10 horns. There are others but we may focus on this for now. We saw the final beast of Daniel 7 also had 10 horns if we add up all the heads of the 4 individual beasts from this chapter we also total 7 heads. One each, for the Lion, Bear and final beast and 4 from the leopard giving a total of 7. So Daniel 7 also contains 7 heads and 10 horns.

Can we find something similar in Daniel 2?

The Image of 4 metals is sub-divided into 7. Head of Gold(1) Breast and arms of Silver(2) Belly and thighs of Brass(2) Legs and feet of Iron/clay(2) to produce a total of 7. The toes of the feet are then specifically mentioned later, of which we may assume there are 10. Therefore the image has 7 sub-divisions and 10 toes

To summarise: all of the elements from these chapters are linked via the numbers 7 and 10. The two interpretations given for the two chapters in Daniel mentioned relate the progression of 4 kingdoms or empires. (Babylonian, Persian, Grecian and Roman). By the time we reach the Book of Revelation the first three empires have been conquered and amalgamated into the Roman Empire, hence in Revelation we only have the final 7 headed and 10 horned red/scarlet dragon/beast. This sequence of related visions is a timeline. Daniel gives a broad outline from the start in his day. John the Revelator gets into greater specifics from his day. The Red Dragon has crowns on its heads(the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 7 heads are 7 mountains or hills) and Rome was built on 7 hills. One context of Revelation 12 is the birth of Christ(the reason for the war in Heaven) when the ruling temporal power was Imperial Rome. Hence the heads have crowns.

By Revelation 13, the West Roman Empire has fallen and the kingdoms of Western Europe have arisen in its place. Hence the heads(Rome) have no crowns and the crowns are instead on the horns. Temporal power has now shifted to the mixture of latinic and germanic monarchies and later imperial empires of Western Europe represented by the horns(scriptural symbols of power and the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 10 horns are 10 future kings).

By Revelation 17, Imperial Europe has crumbled. Monarchies that are left in Western Europe are facile and an adulterous non-monarchal power dominates them. (the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the whore is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth)There are no more crowns.

Hows the flow of logic so far? and what reasoning is weak and requires more detail? Remember this is only the basic framework. Is it a firm foundation in its current form?

 

Prophecy. 

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4 hours ago, gav said:

In the interests of brevity I will lay out a basic framework first... We can get into the details once the foundation is laid.

Daniel 2: Nebuchadnezzar's dream is an Image composed of 4 metals. The first three are pure metals or alloys.(Gold, Silver, Brass) The legs and feet are composite, of Iron and Clay which break in pieces and bruise. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

Daniel 7: Daniel's vision of 4 beasts. The first three although, they have oddities, are recognisable (Lion, Bear, Leopard) The final beast is composite with great Iron teeth and nails of Brass which devours, breaks in pieces and stamps with its feet. It has 10 horns. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

For simplicity sake I will leave out the little horn, blasphemy etc. in this initial framework. It seems clear that that although many specifics in the dream differ there are significant structural similarities pointed out in bold.

The image of horns in the OT refer to rulers/kings. It is not clear that you get that from your last statements. You are right that these various prophetic images are related. In fact they are talking about the same earthly kingdoms starting with Babylon, then Persia/Media, Greece and finally Rome.

4 hours ago, gav said:

Revelation 13: Beast rising from the Sea. Like a Leopard, it has feet of a Bear and a mouth of a Lion (the three beasts of Daniel 7 in reverse order). The Dragon gives him his power. First three are recognisable with last being mythical. Once again 4 Beasts are mentioned only this time they are composite into one, like the final beast of Daniel 7 that was composite with iron teeth and brass nails. This beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the Dragon and 7 heads and 10 horns takes us back a chapter to Revelation 12.

Revelation 12: A great red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns takes us to Revelation 17.

Revelation 17: The woman sits on a scarlet coloured beast with 7 heads and 10 horns.

In the above Revelation chapters the common theme is 7 heads and 10 horns. There are others but we may focus on this for now. We saw the final beast of Daniel 7 also had 10 horns if we add up all the heads of the 4 individual beasts from this chapter we also total 7 heads. One each, for the Lion, Bear and final beast and 4 from the leopard giving a total of 7. So Daniel 7 also contains 7 heads and 10 horns.

Adding the numbers from the separate beasts does not work. Rev 17:9 tells us the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth.

The 4 heads of the leopard represent the 4 divisions of the Grecian kingdom after Alexander the Great died: the Ptolemaic kingdom of Egypt developed its own religion which mixed in Egyptian tradition. Similarly, the Seleucid Empire of Syria, Iran and the East had its own king-worship cult. So you just can't add them up like you're doing.

4 hours ago, gav said:

Can we find something similar in Daniel 2?

The Image of 4 metals is sub-divided into 7. Head of Gold(1) Breast and arms of Silver(2) Belly and thighs of Brass(2) Legs and feet of Iron/clay(2) to produce a total of 7. The toes of the feet are then specifically mentioned later, of which we may assume there are 10. Therefore the image has 7 sub-divisions and 10 toes

To summarise: all of the elements from these chapters are linked via the numbers 7 and 10. The two interpretations given for the two chapters in Daniel mentioned relate the progression of 4 kingdoms or empires. (Babylonian, Persian, Grecian and Roman). By the time we reach the Book of Revelation the first three empires have been conquered and amalgamated into the Roman Empire, hence in Revelation we only have the final 7 headed and 10 horned red/scarlet dragon/beast. This sequence of related visions is a timeline. Daniel gives a broad outline from the start in his day. John the Revelator gets into greater specifics from his day. The Red Dragon has crowns on its heads(the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 7 heads are 7 mountains or hills) and Rome was built on 7 hills. One context of Revelation 12 is the birth of Christ(the reason for the war in Heaven) when the ruling temporal power was Imperial Rome. Hence the heads have crowns.

By Revelation 13, the West Roman Empire has fallen and the kingdoms of Western Europe have arisen in its place. Hence the heads(Rome) have no crowns and the crowns are instead on the horns. Temporal power has now shifted to the mixture of latinic and germanic monarchies and later imperial empires of Western Europe represented by the horns(scriptural symbols of power and the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 10 horns are 10 future kings).

By Revelation 17, Imperial Europe has crumbled. Monarchies that are left in Western Europe are facile and an adulterous non-monarchal power dominates them. (the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the whore is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth)There are no more crowns.

Hows the flow of logic so far? and what reasoning is weak and requires more detail? Remember this is only the basic framework. Is it a firm foundation in its current form?

The ten horns or ten toes represent the "barbaric" kingdoms which defeated Rome. These developed into the modern nations of Western Europe: the Saxons into England, the Franks into France, the Visigoths into Spain, the Suevian tribes into Portugal, and three other Germanic tribes into Italy, Germany, Austria - the Lombards, Burgundians, and Gepidae. Daniel says three were plucked up by the little horn. The Vandals, who had moved into N. Africa were defeated by the Eastern empire, as were the Ostrogoths while they were in Rome. The Herulis were the first to rule Rome after the Romans, but they too were plucked up.

The ten horns of Revelation give their power unto the beast until they begin to understand the things of Revelation per 17:13-17

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7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Prophecy. 

Well that was embarrassing, a typo in the heading... Thanks for the heads up

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7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The 4 heads of the leopard represent the 4 divisions of the Grecian kingdom after Alexander the Great died: the Ptolemaic kingdom of Egypt developed its own religion which mixed in Egyptian tradition. Similarly, the Seleucid Empire of Syria, Iran and the East had its own king-worship cult. So you just can't add them up like you're doing.

Agreed on the meaning of the for 4 heads. I see the the Ptolemaic kingdom and the Seleucids represented by the thighs of brass. The hellenistic world is united under Alexander (belly of brass) but after the initial split into 4 settles for the longest duration into two(thighs). Imperial Rome is also divided into east and west(legs and stamping feet).

In adding them up I am just looking for the presence of the number 7 or a group of seven items. It just so happens that these also happen to be heads but I agree the meaning of those heads in Daniel does not match perfectly with the meaning of the heads in Revelation; just as the seven sub-divisions of the Image do not match perfectly either.

I will delve into matching more of these numbers 4,7,10 next.

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7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The ten horns or ten toes represent the "barbaric" kingdoms which defeated Rome. These developed into the modern nations of Western Europe: the Saxons into England, the Franks into France, the Visigoths into Spain, the Suevian tribes into Portugal, and three other Germanic tribes into Italy, Germany, Austria - the Lombards, Burgundians, and Gepidae. Daniel says three were plucked up by the little horn. The Vandals, who had moved into N. Africa were defeated by the Eastern empire, as were the Ostrogoths while they were in Rome. The Herulis were the first to rule Rome after the Romans, but they too were plucked up.

Perhaps my calling them: "mixture of latinic and germanic monarchies" was not so clear. For they all started as Barbarians but some became more latinised in the west (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc.) and others retained more of their germanic roots in the east(Flemish, Dutch, German, Austrian, etc.) I'll cover my thoughts on the little horns a little later, there are a couple of numbers I still want to flesh out. For instance the with the emergence of the little horn with three plucked up in its stead; the 10 horns are reduced to 7 plus one little one of different character.It is another occurrence of the 7 and 10 pairing in the same chapter.

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On 8/9/2020 at 7:40 AM, gav said:

In the interests of brevity I will lay out a basic framework first... We can get into the details once the foundation is laid.

Daniel 2: Nebuchadnezzar's dream is an Image composed of 4 metals. The first three are pure metals or alloys.(Gold, Silver, Brass) The legs and feet are composite, of Iron and Clay which break in pieces and bruise. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

Daniel 7: Daniel's vision of 4 beasts. The first three although, they have oddities, are recognisable (Lion, Bear, Leopard) The final beast is composite with great Iron teeth and nails of Brass which devours, breaks in pieces and stamps with its feet. It has 10 horns. In the interpretation the 4 beasts represent 4 kingdoms(Empires) that are replaced by the eternal kingdom of God.

For simplicity sake I will leave out the little horn, blasphemy etc. in this initial framework. It seems clear that that although many specifics in the dream differ there are significant structural similarities pointed out in bold.

Revelation 13: Beast rising from the Sea. Like a Leopard, it has feet of a Bear and a mouth of a Lion (the three beasts of Daniel 7 in reverse order). The Dragon gives him his power. First three are recognisable with last being mythical. Once again 4 Beasts are mentioned only this time they are composite into one, like the final beast of Daniel 7 that was composite with iron teeth and brass nails. This beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the Dragon and 7 heads and 10 horns takes us back a chapter to Revelation 12.

Revelation 12: A great red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. The mention of the red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns takes us to Revelation 17.

Revelation 17: The woman sits on a scarlet coloured beast with 7 heads and 10 horns.

In the above Revelation chapters the common theme is 7 heads and 10 horns. There are others but we may focus on this for now. We saw the final beast of Daniel 7 also had 10 horns if we add up all the heads of the 4 individual beasts from this chapter we also total 7 heads. One each, for the Lion, Bear and final beast and 4 from the leopard giving a total of 7. So Daniel 7 also contains 7 heads and 10 horns.

Can we find something similar in Daniel 2?

The Image of 4 metals is sub-divided into 7. Head of Gold(1) Breast and arms of Silver(2) Belly and thighs of Brass(2) Legs and feet of Iron/clay(2) to produce a total of 7. The toes of the feet are then specifically mentioned later, of which we may assume there are 10. Therefore the image has 7 sub-divisions and 10 toes

To summarise: all of the elements from these chapters are linked via the numbers 7 and 10. The two interpretations given for the two chapters in Daniel mentioned relate the progression of 4 kingdoms or empires. (Babylonian, Persian, Grecian and Roman). By the time we reach the Book of Revelation the first three empires have been conquered and amalgamated into the Roman Empire, hence in Revelation we only have the final 7 headed and 10 horned red/scarlet dragon/beast. This sequence of related visions is a timeline. Daniel gives a broad outline from the start in his day. John the Revelator gets into greater specifics from his day. The Red Dragon has crowns on its heads(the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 7 heads are 7 mountains or hills) and Rome was built on 7 hills. One context of Revelation 12 is the birth of Christ(the reason for the war in Heaven) when the ruling temporal power was Imperial Rome. Hence the heads have crowns.

By Revelation 13, the West Roman Empire has fallen and the kingdoms of Western Europe have arisen in its place. Hence the heads(Rome) have no crowns and the crowns are instead on the horns. Temporal power has now shifted to the mixture of latinic and germanic monarchies and later imperial empires of Western Europe represented by the horns(scriptural symbols of power and the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the 10 horns are 10 future kings).

By Revelation 17, Imperial Europe has crumbled. Monarchies that are left in Western Europe are facile and an adulterous non-monarchal power dominates them. (the interpretation given in Revelation 17 is that the whore is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth)There are no more crowns.

Hows the flow of logic so far? and what reasoning is weak and requires more detail? Remember this is only the basic framework. Is it a firm foundation in its current form?

 

Very simple. A socialist state is established and maintained by the compulsory power of earthy secular governments. Meanwhile, the United Order is strictly voluntary and established and maintained by prIvate citizens outside of the coercive control and restraint of secular governments. 

Another extremely important point to keep in mind is that a perfect Zion society can only be created by a righteous, holy and sanctified people who wholeheartedly serve God.. The great error of the socialists is that they mistakenly believe a perfect society can be created by wicked people who violate God’s commandments at every hand. For example, a perfect society is not going to be built by a group of people who, by and large, believe the mass extermination of millions of innocent unborn children of God is morally acceptable.

Edited by teddyaware
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Please keep in mind that the presentations in the Bible are not timelines at all, ever. They are maps of progression, for the individual and for the community that we would call God.

And these maps cannot be read separately from the scriptures as a whole nor from the keys that reveal the maps.

God does not write about time and history. He writes about YOU.

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God is not a numerologist, although man attempts to make Him one.  There is numerology in LDS celestial rooms (threes, sevens and twelves) for reasons that escape me.

Edited by Bob Crockett
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On 8/9/2020 at 4:40 AM, gav said:

Remember this is only the basic framework. Is it a firm foundation in its current form?

So far, yes.  Are you going to talk about the USA soon?  How the foundation of this country needed to be established before the true church of Jesus Christ could be restored.  That's my favorite part of the story.  The US of A.

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16 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Very simple. A socialist state is established and maintained by the compulsory power of earthy secular governments. Meanwhile, the United Order is strictly voluntary and established and maintained by prIvate citizens outside of the coercive control and restraint of secular governments. 

Another extremely important point to keep in mind is that a perfect Zion society can only be created by a righteous, holy and sanctified people who wholeheartedly serve God.. The great error of the socialists is that they mistakenly believe a perfect society can be created by wicked people who violate God’s commandments at every hand. For example, a perfect society is not going to be built by a group of people who, by and large, believe the mass extermination of millions of innocent unborn children of God is morally acceptable.

Agreed, but that thread was closed for drifting into the political realm, so lets leave it at that.

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1 minute ago, Ahab said:

So far, yes.  Are you going to talk about the USA soon?  How the foundation of this country needed to be established before the true church of Jesus Christ could be restored.  That's my favorite part of the story.  The US of A.

The US of A in this story is both the hero that then becomes the villain.

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Just now, gav said:

The US of A in this story is both the hero that then becomes the villain.

Yeah I know but I'd like to hear more of the story.  And FYI I do not appreciate spoilers so next time please say something like SPOILER ALERT before saying something like that!

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13 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Please keep in mind that the presentations in the Bible are not timelines at all, ever. They are maps of progression, for the individual and for the community that we would call God.

And these maps cannot be read separately from the scriptures as a whole nor from the keys that reveal the maps.

God does not write about time and history. He writes about YOU.

An interesting perspective, often true but I don't agree that things in the bible have nothing to do with time and history or timelines ever. How would you categorise Daniel chapter 2 in your view of the Bible?

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3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yeah I know but I'd like to hear more of the story.  And FYI I do not appreciate spoilers so next time please say something like SPOILER ALERT before saying something like that!

Spoiler alert! The devil is in the details and I think there are some perspectives you have never heard before, like for instance, we have all been down the sequence of empires in Nebuchadnezzar's dream but has anybody taken you back up the image?

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Just now, gav said:

Spoiler alert! The devil is in the details and I think there are some perspectives you have never heard before, like for instance, we have all been down the sequence of empires in Nebuchadnezzar's dream but has anybody taken you back up the image?

Yes I think so but it's been a while and my memory of it is pretty fuzzy.  I do like a good story though so feel free to tell me again.

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3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

God is not a numerologist, although man attempts to make Him one.  There is numerology in LDS celestial rooms (threes, sevens and twelves) for reasons that escape me.

If you saw numerology in this thread then perhaps the following may apply 🙈🙉🙊to your future views of this thread.

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Having established that the numbers 4, 7, and 10 occur in 2 chapters in Daniel relative to the image of 4 metals and the 4 beasts and 7 and 10 occur in three chapters of Revelation relating to the Red Dragon, Beast from the Sea and the Scarlet Beast and that these numbers forge a link between these books and all of these figurative elements, lets see if these numbers appear elsewhere in these books.

In the forgoing it was noted that when the number 4 is used it is sub-divided into a group of 3 like entities and 1 that is singled out or stands apart in some way. The final of the 4 metals was mixed with clay and the 4th and final beast was not a recognisable beast like the 3 before.

Immediately in Daniel Chapter one we encounter 4 captives of the children of Judah. Daniel proposes that their preferred diet be tried for 10 days. After a successful trial this becomes their diet and they are blessed with knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom. Daniel is singled out from his three friends because he has understanding in a visions and dreams.

At the end of their training they are declared 10 times better than all the magicians and astrologers in the realm.

The four children's names are listed 4 times. Daniel is also singled out and mentioned separately. His name appears a total of 10 times. The number 10 appears 4 times. 3 times relative to the diet trial and the final occurrence stipulating that they prove 10 times better.

So in:

Daniel 1: we have lots of 4's and 10's and the 4's are again sub-divided into a group of 3 with an additional 1 singled out. 7 is absent.

Daniel 2: has the 4 metals, 1 mixed with clay, the 7 bodily sub-divisions and the 10 toes.

Daniel 3: has a furnace made 7 times hotter and 4 people in the furnace. The 3 friends and 1 like the Son of God. 10 is now absent.

Daniel 4: 7 times are to pass over Nebuchadnezzar. The phrase is used 4 times. 10 is absent.

Daniel 5: a finger appears and writes 4 words on the wall.

 

I think by now it is readily apparent that the writer of Daniel is encoding some details into these accounts using these numbers and groupings. 4 and 7 are most prevalent.

What do you think this could mean?

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3 hours ago, gav said:

Agreed, but that thread was closed for drifting into the political realm, so lets leave it at that.

Guess I didn’t look close enough at the thread headline; must have mistakenly assumed I was responding on the right topic.

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On 8/9/2020 at 7:40 AM, gav said:

Hows the flow of logic so far? and what reasoning is weak and requires more detail? Remember this is only the basic framework. Is it a firm foundation in its current form?

The Marvelette's prophetic "Beechwood 4-5789" also ties in with this. As does Wilson Picket's "634-5789".

Edited by CV75
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2 hours ago, gav said:

What do you think this could mean?

I want a story.  Not a puzzle to solve.  

Based on what I do know I would say the 4 relates to the number of people/kingdoms/realms involved in the story and the 7 relates to a time or the times or the duration/intensity of an event before whatever will happen next.

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4 hours ago, CV75 said:

The Marvelette's prophetic "Beechwood 4-5789" also ties in with this. As does Wilson Picket's "634-5789".

Numerology with soul - blasphemy :girl_devil:

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On 8/9/2020 at 9:41 PM, teddyaware said:

Very simple. A socialist state is established and maintained by the compulsory power of earthy secular governments. Meanwhile, the United Order is strictly voluntary and established and maintained by prIvate citizens outside of the coercive control and restraint of secular governments. 

Another extremely important point to keep in mind is that a perfect Zion society can only be created by a righteous, holy and sanctified people who wholeheartedly serve God.. The great error of the socialists is that they mistakenly believe a perfect society can be created by wicked people who violate God’s commandments at every hand. For example, a perfect society is not going to be built by a group of people who, by and large, believe the mass extermination of millions of innocent unborn children of God is morally acceptable.

Well said. 

Very true.

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12 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

God is not a numerologist, although man attempts to make Him one. 

True but He did send us truth about nature, space, and time or wisdom thru Fibonacci, Pythagoras and others.

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