Jump to content

Emode as Proof Js Did Not Write Bom


Recommended Posts

51 minutes ago, PacMan said:

Really?  Is that what what you say every time you lose an argument?  "Sorry I've offended you?"

Generally, introducing made-from-whole-cloth straw man arguments to distract from the merits is not intellectually honest.  But then to couch it as a response to "offense?"  Welcome to Looneyville, folks.

Don't worry.  I'm not offended.  I'm having fun.  #bobcrockettexposed

Just calling it like I see it.  Can't remember where I last heard that....

Good for you.   I admire that. 

Link to post
2 hours ago, pogi said:

Whatever you want to call it (it is ad hominem), you are engaging in the same type of fallacious argument by attacking the source rather than the substance of their argument.  

In my profession we are entitled to discredit anonymous sources.  Anybody who is anonymous and insults another who is not anonymous, particular on such sensitive matters as religion, has some psychological issues at stake.  Otherwise they'd use their own name.   And I am rather surprised that a scholar like Dr. Carmack would stoop to anonymity, particular on matters concerning the Book of Mormon.  

Don't get me wrong.  I defend the right to be anonymous on the internet.  Free speech is paramount of all virtues in my mind, and anonymous speech is part of that.   Anonymous speech may be important to criticize the government without fear of retribution.

But there are laws to protect against particular insult and libel and extortion, but they are ineffective against anonymous speakers.  So, whereas I think it important to permit anonymity, I also believe that free speech should permit pornography and erotic speech.   But I would not, personally, want to be associated with erotic speech, pornography or anonymous libelous insults of another person.   I believe that some day God will call me to account for anything like that, traducing someone's good name (#bobcrockettexposed) while anonymous.   

I've heard many times that anonymity protects the poster.  I get that.  I had posters threaten me over the board, privately in messages, contact my prior employer (actually, as a partner, I employed myself), file a complaint against me with the State Bar for a post I made, threaten my children and show up at my house.   Perhaps I am too foolish to post provocative statements in my own name in the name of religion.  I know that Dr. Peterson suffers similar abuses.  

That's my rant.  I've had this position for years.  Unchanged. 

Edited by Bob Crockett
Link to post
2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Perhaps I am too foolish to post provocative statements in my own name in the name of religion.

There is healthy/helpful provocation (one which stimulates thought, discussion, and ideally the Spirit), and there is unhealthy/hurtful provocation (one which agitates against the spirit through insult and arousal of anger, etc. in a battle of pride).

I would not call the first foolish. 

Edited by pogi
  • Like 2
Link to post

Should we limit Joseph's potential exposure of EmodE to the Bible? 

Joseph was "fond of quoting the Founding Fathers... ( https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/30/how-joseph-smith-and-the-early-mormons-challenged-american-democracy )"    Did not they speak in Early Modern English?  Is it completely unreasonable to assume that he learned some of these phrases and styling from other sources?

Another difficulty I find with this whole theory is that if this language truly was not Joseph's but was inspired by God...why?  The language in the BoM is not pure Early Modern English.  There are mistakes left and right.  Would it be improper to call it entirely eclectic in language?  Why would God be so careful and consistent with only some Early Modern English, while completely missing the boat elsewhere?  It doesn't make much sense to me.  It reads like a fallible and inconsistent human wrote it in hodge-podge English.

I am of the position that it is Joseph's language used to interpret the Spirit. 

Edited by pogi
  • Like 2
Link to post
1 hour ago, pogi said:

Would it be improper to call it entirely eclectic in language?

No, not improper, because it is eclectic to a degree.

It's also a scriptural text, of course, so it doesn't read like most early modern texts. It reads like a biblical text.

In the final analysis, it doesn't really matter what we call the language.

What's quite interesting is noting the various unexpected correspondences with earlier and contemporary language.

  • Like 1
Link to post
2 hours ago, pogi said:

There are mistakes left and right. 

I've found, however, that most don't know the data or understand the issues very well.

Link to post
32 minutes ago, champatsch said:

No, not improper, because it is eclectic to a degree.

It's also a scriptural text, of course, so it doesn't read like most early modern texts. It reads like a biblical text.

In the final analysis, it doesn't really matter what we call the language.

What's quite interesting is noting the various unexpected correspondences with earlier and contemporary language.

As you might know my working hypothesis is that the Book of Mormon was created without an underlying Nephite text by one or more early modern authors. A lot of your comparisons have looked very broadly at EmodE and you've come up with a range of dates that has seemed to put most emphasis on the late 1500s. Given that the Book of Mormon is probably written by a small handful of people, maybe as small as a single person, would we expect the text to correspond with the general pattern of a specific time? Or could a single person or small group have created an idiosyncratic text that doesn't neatly fit into the general pattern. For example, let's pretend the author (or English translator of, say, a Latin text) was a 70 year-old Scot who did the work in 1650. Wouldn't we expect his writing would differ from, say, a thirty year old Londoner at the same period? The issue I'm trying to think through is how different a single author's work might be from the "average" author that your work seems to describe given that it's based on a large number of texts over a significant time period. In hydrology we might construct a hydrograph for a river that shows an "average" year, but in reality, no single year is like the average year. Could authors be the same way?

Link to post
21 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I've got no horse in the "which century?" race, but we discussed this a while back. I'm still not certain that the Arminianism in the Book of Mormon didn't come from Nathanael Emmons, Oliver's great uncle, who was a friend of Ethan Smith and also one of the leading figures in the New Divinity movement that swept New England in the decades previous to the Book of Mormon. Dr. John Smith, a cousin of Asael Smith was also an Arminian and taught both Ethan Smith and Solomon Spaulding at Dartmouth. 

Curiously, a narrative about a golden book containing the spiritual history of "lost Israelites" also pops up in a small village in Burma, one year before the Book of Mormon was published. The American missionaries who first told of this account in 1829 were Baptists out of the New Divinity, Hopkinsian movements. They were self-proclaimed followers of Nathanael Emmons, Oliver Cowdery's great uncle.

This says to me that the Dartmouth Arminianism in the late 18th century was the most probable source of the Book of Mormon narrative. Although the toponyms and geography come from 16th and 17th century Utopian texts about Rechabites (Rahmans as they were known) in the isles of the sea. 

Whichever century it's from, it's not a hodge podge of Protestant doctrines. It's a known religious system Joseph was unlikely to have known.

Link to post
13 hours ago, JarMan said:

As you might know my working hypothesis is that the Book of Mormon was created without an underlying Nephite text by one or more early modern authors. A lot of your comparisons have looked very broadly at EmodE and you've come up with a range of dates that has seemed to put most emphasis on the late 1500s. Given that the Book of Mormon is probably written by a small handful of people, maybe as small as a single person, would we expect the text to correspond with the general pattern of a specific time? Or could a single person or small group have created an idiosyncratic text that doesn't neatly fit into the general pattern. For example, let's pretend the author (or English translator of, say, a Latin text) was a 70 year-old Scot who did the work in 1650. Wouldn't we expect his writing would differ from, say, a thirty year old Londoner at the same period? The issue I'm trying to think through is how different a single author's work might be from the "average" author that your work seems to describe given that it's based on a large number of texts over a significant time period. In hydrology we might construct a hydrograph for a river that shows an "average" year, but in reality, no single year is like the average year. Could authors be the same way?

The varied (mostly archaic) nature of the text suggests multiple inputs, does it not? So a small group would work better, I think. There are northern aspects to the language, so you'd want at least one northern representative.

Link to post
12 hours ago, champatsch said:

The varied (mostly archaic) nature of the text suggests multiple inputs, does it not? So a small group would work better, I think. There are northern aspects to the language, so you'd want at least one northern representative.


oronce_fine_s_1531_map__re_projected_by_ashtagon_dc4p897-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3siaGVpZ2h0IjoiPD0yODk0IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMjQ1YjUzOGYtYmRmNi00OTIyLTg1M2UtY2MxMDk0YTUxNjE1XC9kYzRwODk3LTMzZTE1NzA1LTViMTQtNDY4YS1iZmVhLWRhNmMyN2Q2NmU2Yi5wbmciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NTAwOCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.1eXfOon4vKJxTo3f2CEcfabQ-03P8KTnm-8VS4ho1jUThe painfully obvious anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are the reason I don't quickly dismiss a 16th-17th century origin. A 19th century author wouldn't have been so careless, and so ignorant of geography. Have you put any thought into the geographical understanding this small group in the 1500s might have had?

This is the map that I consider to be the closest to the author(s) worldview. Mexico (Meffigo) is contiguous with Burma and Siam. Elephants, horses, cimiters, steel silk etc. would not be anachronistic to this geography. In the 16th and 17th centuries these nations were thought to be inhabited by pre-exilic Israelites called Nephtalites.

Link to post
12 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:


oronce_fine_s_1531_map__re_projected_by_ashtagon_dc4p897-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3siaGVpZ2h0IjoiPD0yODk0IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMjQ1YjUzOGYtYmRmNi00OTIyLTg1M2UtY2MxMDk0YTUxNjE1XC9kYzRwODk3LTMzZTE1NzA1LTViMTQtNDY4YS1iZmVhLWRhNmMyN2Q2NmU2Yi5wbmciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NTAwOCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.1eXfOon4vKJxTo3f2CEcfabQ-03P8KTnm-8VS4ho1jUThe painfully obvious anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are the reason I don't quickly dismiss a 16th-17th century origin. A 19th century author wouldn't have been so careless, and so ignorant of geography. Have you put any thought into the geographical understanding this small group in the 1500s might have had?

This is the map that I consider to be the closest to the author(s) worldview. Mexico (Meffigo) is contiguous with Burma and Siam. Elephants, horses, cimiters, steel silk etc. would not be anachronistic to this geography. In the 16th and 17th centuries these nations were thought to be inhabited by pre-exilic Israelites called Nephtalites.

Interesting. Compelling features. I'd like to know the geographical realities, but it looks to me like we won't know them till we've passed on, which for some of us won't be too far in the future.

Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 8/7/2020 at 8:03 AM, champatsch said:

The varied (mostly archaic) nature of the text suggests multiple inputs, does it not? So a small group would work better, I think. There are northern aspects to the language, so you'd want at least one northern representative.

This makes a lot of sense to me: a "creative and cultural translation" (Skousen’s words) circa 1600 by more than one person ("multiple inputs"). The goal was not necessarily strict fidelity to what was on the plates, rather the goal was to "testify of Christ."

Some might say this just creates more problems, but to me it makes understandable the retrospective Christology and the 16th and 17th century cultural bits.

Edited by bdouglas
Clarity.
  • Like 1
Link to post
On 8/7/2020 at 8:03 AM, champatsch said:

The varied (mostly archaic) nature of the text suggests multiple inputs, does it not? So a small group would work better, I think. There are northern aspects to the language, so you'd want at least one northern representative.

I'm thinking of one of those online regional dialect tests that guesses where you're from based on which words you use for certain things. I remember taking one several times and changing my answers a little each time because there was more than one legitimate answer. The results told me I was from Seattle, Salt Lake City, or Los Angeles depending on how I answered. As it turns out I grew up in Western Washington, lived most of my adult life along the Wasatch Front, and my parents grew up in Southern California. Somebody analyzing a large enough sample of my writing might conclude there were actually 3 different writers rather than one writer with different influences.

You've looked how English has varied over time, but it varies by region, too, right? What if someone grew up in Scotland in the late 1500s, was educated at Oxford in the early 1600s, and spent his adult life in different places throughout England and Europe interacting with both rural and urban English speaking peoples with different dialects? Then in 1650 he writes a book. Isn't it possible he would have an idiosyncratic style that might seem eclectic as if there were multiple authors? We can't expect a single author to look like an "average" author. What may look like limited elements from the late 1400s, strong elements from the mid-to-late 1500s, along with some elements from the 1600s may just be a single author's various geographical and temporal influences manifesting themselves.

Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Robert F. Smith
      A symposium on "EGYPT AND THE OLD TESTAMENT" will be held at the Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, Gabelsbergerstr. 35, Munich/München, Germany, on 6-7 Dec 2019.
      The proceedings will be published as ÄAT (AEGYPTEN UND ALTES TESTAMENT) volume 100.
      More on the symposium can be found at https://www.freunde-abrahams.de/aegypten-und-altes-testament/  .
      ÄAT's spectrum covers the philological, art historical, and archaeological branches of Egyptology, as well as Old Testament exegesis, the archaeology, glyptics and epigraphy of Israel/Palestine and neighboring regions such as Sinai and Transjordan, literature and history of religions, from the Bronze Ages up to Greco-Roman and early Christian periods, as well as relevant aspects of research history.
       
    • By Bernard Gui
      At the end of Alma 37, Alma gives his final instructions to his faithful young son Helaman. After encouraging him always to be obedient to God’s commandments and to pray to God continually, Alma uses the Liahona as an object lesson to teach Helaman how to obtain eternal life through following the words of Christ. Using analogy, Alma compares the Liahona, the temporal compass provided by God to Lehi, with the words of Christ, the spiritual guide provided to all by God. In this remarkable passage, Alma, like all good teachers, repeats this image three times, and like a good Nephite teacher, he uses a parallelism to increase the impact.
      Alma employs the alternate parallel form, one of the most common and effective forms of poetic parallelism in the Book of Mormon. It appears hundreds of times. An alternate consists of two or more lines that are repeated in parallel order. The simple alternate form is outlined ABAB. Extended alternates are outlined ABCABC, etc. 
       Alma uses three extended alternates in rapid sequence to instruct his son. 
       A   For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ, 
          B   which will point to you 
              C   a straight course to eternal bliss, 
      A   as it was for our fathers to give heed to this compass, 
           B   which would point unto them 
               C   a straight course to the promised land.
      The A phrase compares the ease of heeding the words of Christ with the ease of looking at the Liahona. The B phrase describes the purpose of A which is to point the course. The C phrase declares the final destination of those who follow A, salvation and arrival at the promised land.
       A   For just as surely as this director did bring our fathers, 
         B   by following its course, 
             C   to the promised land, 
      A   shall the words of Christ, 
         B   if we follow their course,
             C  carry us beyond this vale of sorrow into a far better land of promise.
      The A phrase again compares the words of Christ with the Liahona, but in reversed order. The B phrase indicates what we should do with A – follow their directions, and the C phrase gives the destination of those who do B – the promised land and a far better place, eternal life. 
       A   for so was it with our fathers; 
         B    for so was it prepared for them,
            C   that if they would look they might live; 
      A   even so it is with us.
         B   The way is prepared, 
            C   and if we will look we may live forever.
      In this last alternate, Alma personalizes the analogies of the first two. The A phrase compares the Nephite fathers (Lehi and Nephi) with Alma and his son Helaman. The B phrase indicates that God prepared the ways of direction for all of them. The C phrase compares the physical salvation of the Nephite fathers by following the Liahona with the spiritual salvation promised to all of us who will look upon Christ.
      Alma concludes his instructions with another impassioned fatherly plea that his son rise to the greatness of his calling.
      This passage indicates deliberate logical planning on the part of Alma in giving crucial instructions to his son prior to his death. This is what Alma thought would be of most worth to his son - look to Christ. It gives us insight into the Nephite mind, especially that of a powerful and gifted leader. I am so grateful for the Book of Mormon and the beautiful intricacies that await in its pages for us to discover. (Thanks to Donald Parry for his marvelous edition of the Book of Mormon. Poetic Parallelism in the Book of Mormon: The Complete Text Reformatted. Maxwell Institute, 2007).
       Your comments are welcomed. 
       Here is the passage in context.
       
    • By Five Solas
      1. Read the Book of Mormon
      2.  Ask God
      3. With a sincere heart
      4. With real intent
      5. Having faith in Christ
      Failure is not an option, if you believe Moroni.  First, you must read.  Next, you must follow with prayer while meeting his remaining 3 prerequisites.  Then the truth of the Book of Mormon will be manifested to you.  Full stop.
      Therefore if the truth is not manifested, the reason is as plain as the nose on your face: One or more of the prerequisites were not met.  There is no alternate possibility.  "It’s very simple"—as President Trump is fond of saying in his press conferences.
      5 possible ways to fail, and only 5.  So here is a question:  With LDS Church growth stalling and 70+% of millennials going inactive/leaving the LDS Church by age 20 (courtesy of Mormonleaks), which of the 5 do you think represents the greatest challenge?  Or are they all equally challenging?  Or do you think it's some combination of them that present difficulty?
      And while we’re on the question, how exactly does one go about achieving the last three prerequisites?  Would any LDS seriously admonish an investigator to read the Bible first in order to attain “faith in Christ” prior to attempting the Book of Mormon?
      --Erik
      _____________________________________________
      For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
      --H.L. Mencken
    • By hope_for_things
      Where did the Book of Mormon come from.  I constantly hear this idea argued from both apologetic and critical sides.  All in an attempt to explain how Joseph could have produced the Book of Mormon.  Yet, when it comes right down to it, both sides should be able to agree on some pretty basic historical facts from the evidence.  
      Joseph Smith dictated the content of the BoM to some scribes Nearly everyone should be able to agree on that statement, and I think that really explains it in a nutshell.  I was thinking about other figures in history that are revered for things they produced.  Newton, Einstein, Beethoven, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc.  Do anyone else spend so much time asking where they came up with their masterpiece works?  Where did Einstein get that amazing theory of relativity?  Where did Michelangelo get that amazing statue of David.  How could they have possibly produced these things?  Where did they come from?  
      I think we spend so much time looking for evidence, trying to find parallels, seeking to understand where the BoM came from, that we are missing the answer right in front of our faces and we should all be able to agree on.  The BoM came from Joseph Smith.  This is the clear and straightforward answer that both believers and nonbelievers should be able to agree on, and its the simple answer to a highly debated question.  
    • By Robert F. Smith
      Annalee Newitz, “Most scientists now reject the idea that the first Americans came by land,” Ars Technica, Nov 4, 2017, online at https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11/majority-of-scientists-now-agree-that-humans-came-to-the-americas-by-boat/ , with map,
      Todd J. Braje, et al., “Finding the first Americans,” Science, 358/6363 (3 Nov 2017):592-594, online at http://science.sciencemag.org/content/358/6363/592 ,
      It now appears that coming to America by boat was normal even from earliest times.  There is no longer any reason to credit the Beringia Land Bridge hypothesis, except in a much later period.
×
×
  • Create New...