The Great Plan of Salvation

[TheTanakas]

My family and I have been reading this manual for the last few weeks.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/intro?lang=eng

I had a question on these passages.

256 - Corianton believed that punishment for sins was not fair (see Alma 42:1). But 
Alma taught that there is a way to escape from the "state of misery" that sin puts us 
in.

What sin put Adam and Eve in their state of misery?

258 - How can we use our "probationary time" on earth to become more like the Savior?
 
Why isn't the spirit world considered a probationary time to become like Jesus when
they can accept ordinances performed for them?

Peter

[OGHoosier]

9 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

What sin put Adam and Eve in their state of misery?

Sin in general. Sin puts us in a state of misery. Most sins lead to consequences all on their own, which tend to misery for anyone. For people who know God/want to know God, sin evokes misery since it distances us from Him. Adam and Eve, being human beings, sinned, just like the rest of us. Being cast out into the lone and dreary world must certainly have evoked feelings of misery in them, as did other sins they committed throughout their lives, I'd imagine. 

9 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

Why isn't the spirit world considered a probationary time to become like Jesus when
they can accept ordinances performed for them?

This earth life features a mortal body and the various sensations, temptations, disciplines, neurological experiences, etc. involved in it. Part of earth life is learning to control our bodies and learn these things: obviously not a possibility in the Spirit World. Becoming like Jesus involves becoming like He was; vulnerable to temptation but resistant of it, susceptible to mortal weakness but not dominated by it, in command of our bodies on earth so that we can command perfected bodies and experience a perfected bodily experience in heaven. 

Edit: I should say that I do believe the Spirit World is a probationary time as well, but it does not offer all the same opportunities for us as mortality does. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by OGHoosier

[CV75]

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

My family and I have been reading this manual for the last few weeks.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/intro?lang=eng

I had a question on these passages.

256 - Corianton believed that punishment for sins was not fair (see Alma 42:1). But 
Alma taught that there is a way to escape from the "state of misery" that sin puts us 
in.

What sin put Adam and Eve in their state of misery?

258 - How can we use our "probationary time" on earth to become more like the Savior?
 
Why isn't the spirit world considered a probationary time to become like Jesus when
they can accept ordinances performed for them?

Peter

What sin put Adam and Eve in their state of misery? It depends on what you mean: the terms "state of misery" and "state" are used in various ways in Alma Chapter 42. In verse 1, "state of misery" refers to the final judgement of the sinner, but as reflected in other verses in the chapter, the state of misery can also refer to the consignment of the sinner to unhappiness in any any other state/estate as well.
 
Why isn't the spirit world considered a probationary time to become like Jesus when
they can accept ordinances performed for them? It is considered probationary to the extent they still have choice and their resurrection and final judgement haven't yet taken place.

[Islander]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What sin put Adam and Eve in their state of misery? It depends on what you mean: the terms 
 
Why isn't the spirit world considered a probationary time to become like Jesus when
they can accept ordinances performed for them? It is considered probationary to the extent they still have choice and their resurrection and final judgement haven't yet taken place.

I completely agree with you on the first portion of your reply. Not so much on the above, as stated.

This life is the probation period, the time repent and be reconciled to God through the  Atonement of Christ and come into the fold in faith in His Son, our Savior. Those that die in sin and in rebellion against God are lost.  

"Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever" 1 Ne 10:21

"And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents."2 Nephi 2:21

There are others but I guess these make the point explicit. 

 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

I completely agree with you on the first portion of your reply. Not so much on the above, as stated.

This life is the probation period, the time repent and be reconciled to God through the  Atonement of Christ and come into the fold in faith in His Son, our Savior. Those that die in sin and in rebellion against God are lost.  

"Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever" 1 Ne 10:21

"And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents."2 Nephi 2:21

There are others but I guess these make the point explicit. 

Yes, that is why I qualified that the spirit world "is considered probationary to the extent..." As long as people can leave the spirit prison, the spirit world is an extension of the redemption that can be found above the ground. Some might repent in the flesh and do. That some might also repent in the spirit does not diminish that.

[Islander]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, that is why I qualified that the spirit world "is considered probationary to the extent..." As long as people can leave the spirit prison, the spirit world is an extension of the redemption that can be found above the ground. Some might repent in the flesh and do. That some might also repent in the spirit does not diminish that.

But that is NOT what scripture says. This life (not the spirit world) is the proving field to ascertain repentance, faith and be saved from the wrath of God and eternal damnation.

"And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and cast off your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance;

And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death." Alma 13:27,30.

"But Ammon stood forth and said unto him: Behold, thou shalt not slay thy son; nevertheless, it were better that he should fall than thee, for behold, he has repented of his sins; but if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul could not be saved." Alma 20:17

The vicarious opportunity is only available to those that died in darkness, without knowing or having access to the true Gospel.  For the rest, those that heard the Gospel but refused the repent, there is no "second chance". 

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Islander said:

But that is NOT what scripture says. This life (not the spirit world) is the proving field to ascertain repentance, faith and be saved from the wrath of God and eternal damnation.

"And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and cast off your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance;

And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death." Alma 13:27,30.

"But Ammon stood forth and said unto him: Behold, thou shalt not slay thy son; nevertheless, it were better that he should fall than thee, for behold, he has repented of his sins; but if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul could not be saved." Alma 20:17

The vicarious opportunity is only available to those that died in darkness, without knowing or having access to the true Gospel.  For the rest, those that heard the Gospel but refused the repent, there is no "second chance". 

All are correct: this life is the proving field; the spirit world can be considered a continuation of mortality with regards to exposure to the gospel, covenants and ordinances, and accepting a vicarious opportunity is as much a form of repentance as accepting a living one. What a few lines of scripture text might say in comparison to what the scriptures mean on the whole can paint a rather limited picture.

[Islander]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

All are correct: this life is the proving field; the spirit world can be considered a continuation of mortality with regards to exposure to the gospel, covenants and ordinances, and accepting a vicarious opportunity is as much a form of repentance as accepting a living one. What a few lines of scripture text might say in comparison to what the scriptures mean on the whole can paint a rather limited picture.

I am sorry but that sounds like double talk. Either the scriptures mean what they say or they say and mean nothing at all. 

Again and again the Savior and all the prophets said, again and again, repent or in no way you can be saved in the kingdom of God. Other than that I have no idea of what you're talking about. 

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, Islander said:

I am sorry but that sounds like double talk. Either the scriptures mean what they say or they say and mean nothing at all. 

Again and again the Savior and all the prophets said, again and again, repent or in no way you can be saved in the kingdom of God. Other than that I have no idea of what you're talking about. 

The scriptures on the whole mean what they say, just as the Holy Ghost means what He says directly, through the Scriptures, and by other means.

To get an idea of what I am talking about, feel free to ask clarifying questions.

[Islander]

46 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The scriptures on the whole mean what they say, just as the Holy Ghost means what He says directly, through the Scriptures, and by other means.

To get an idea of what I am talking about, feel free to ask clarifying questions.

I really don't have any questions at all. I just stand on what God has revealed in the scriptures. The Holy Ghost may provide individual guidance and direction but it will NOT contradict the word of God in any way, for He ONLY speaks the words of God. 

[CV75]

6 minutes ago, Islander said:

I really don't have any questions at all. I just stand on what God has revealed in the scriptures. The Holy Ghost may provide individual guidance and direction but it will NOT contradict the word of God in any way, for He ONLY speaks the words of God. 

Then you should agree with me.

Edited August 3, 2020 by CV75

[Ahab]

21 hours ago, Islander said:

This life is the probation period, the time repent and be reconciled to God through the  Atonement of Christ and come into the fold in faith in His Son, our Savior. Those that die in sin and in rebellion against God are lost.  

This life is the mortal life, when our physical bodies are mortal, and our mortal life will continue in the spirit world clear up to the time when we are resurrected, individually.

 

21 hours ago, Islander said:

"Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever" 1 Ne 10:21

"And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents."2 Nephi 2:21

There are others but I guess these make the point explicit. 

We are also told that while it will be more difficult to repent of some sins when we die and are then in the spirit world, it will still be possible to repent of every bad thing that we have ever done.

[gav]

On 8/2/2020 at 7:52 PM, TheTanakas said:

What sin put Adam and Eve in their state of misery?

It was a perfectly designed catch 22, they could chose not to eat the fruit and live forever (keep the second commandment)but then would not be able to multiply and replenish the earth and progress (break the first commandment) or they could chose to eat (break the second commandment) and multiply and replenish the earth (keep the first).

A choice is only truly possible with the prerequisite opposites of consequences, as Lehi teaches... opposition in all things. 

Why did Adam and Eve end up in such a sticky situation? Through consent in the spirit world as did we.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, gav said:

It was a perfectly designed catch 22, they could chose not to eat the fruit and live forever (keep the second commandment)but then would not be able to multiply and replenish the earth and progress (break the first commandment) or they could chose to eat (break the second commandment) and multiply and replenish the earth (keep the first).

A choice is only truly possible with the prerequisite opposites of consequences, as Lehi teaches... opposition in all things. 

Why did Adam and Eve end up in such a sticky situation? Through consent in the spirit world as did we.

If I had been Adam, and Eve came to me BEFORE she ate some of the fruit from that tree, I like to think I would have asked our Father something like... how exactly are Eve and I supposed to produce children now?

And I also like to think that our Father would have been able to tell me how we would be able to do it without us knowing or finding out anything about anything that is evil.

I think the fact that they gained knowledge of evil is what got them in trouble.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Ahab

[gav]

On 8/2/2020 at 7:52 PM, TheTanakas said:

258 - How can we use our "probationary time" on earth to become more like the Savior?
 
Why isn't the spirit world considered a probationary time to become like Jesus when
they can accept ordinances performed for them?

Peter

The spirit world is around us and "technically" still our time on the earth. Most are still subject to the fall (separation from God) in the spirit world. Our time is lengthened (life time and time in the spirit world) until we are prepared in all things before partaking of the tree of life (reentering the presence of the Lord). Progression continues in the spirit world. Baptism and other ordinances render us "born again" and redeemed from the fall only as soon as those ordinances are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Most of the worlds population will not reach that in this life and will still progress to it in the spirit world. Spirit prison is still a prison in that those there are still subject to temptation, deception etc. and all these things that come to us as a result of being fallen creatures outside the presence of God.

Paradise is also called the "rest of the Lord" only because once we progress to that stage are we free and redeemed from the spiritual effects of the fall.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, gav said:

The spirit world is around us and "technically" still our time on the earth. Most are still subject to the fall (separation from God) in the spirit world. Our time is lengthened (life time and time in the spirit world) until we are prepared in all things before partaking of the tree of life (reentering the presence of the Lord). Progression continues in the spirit world. Baptism and other ordinances render us "born again" and redeemed from the fall only as soon as those ordinances are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Most of the worlds population will not reach that in this life and will still progress to it in the spirit world. Spirit prison is still a prison in that those there are still subject to temptation, deception etc. and all these things that come to us as a result of being fallen creatures outside the presence of God.

Paradise is also called the "rest of the Lord" only because once we progress to that stage are we free and redeemed from the spiritual effects of the fall.

I would give you a rep point for your thoughts but you're too new on this board for that.  Welcome newbie.

[gav]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If I had been Adam, and Eve came to me BEFORE she ate some of the fruit from that tree, I like to think I would have asked our Father something like... how exactly are Eve and I supposed to produce children now?

And I also like to think that our Father would have been able to tell me how we would be able to do it without us knowing or finding out anything about anything that is evil.

I think the fact that they gained knowledge of evil is what got them in trouble.

Forcing an exercise of free will was the purpose of the catch 22. They had to choose and the purpose of the second estate was to be exposed to evil. The choice had to set them in opposition and bring about the fall. We cannot truly comprehend sweet until we have tasted bitter etc.

[Ahab]

Just now, gav said:

Forcing an exercise of free will was the purpose of the catch 22. They had to choose and the purpose of the second estate was to be exposed to evil. The choice had to set them in opposition and bring about the fall. We cannot truly comprehend sweet until we have tasted bitter etc.

If you had never had anything bitter and then tasted something that was sweet I don't think you would automatically know what bitter tastes like.  You might imagine it, intellectually, but you wouldn't really know bitter, I think.

So as I said, it was the fact that they gained knowledge of evil that got them in trouble, I think.  If only they could have gained knowledge of good without gaining knowledge of anything that is evil.

[gav]

28 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 

So as I said, it was the fact that they gained knowledge of evil that got them in trouble, I think.  If only they could have gained knowledge of good without gaining knowledge of anything that is evil.

Agreed. What specific evil did they gain knowledge of? They gained experiential knowledge of disobedience and defiance. The war in heaven was one of disobedience and defiance and Michael had led the forces countering that defiance... Now he exercised his own will in defiance of a direct and clear directive with full knowledge of the consequences. Something that could only be understood in the committing of the act. I doesn't seem like there was any other way.

But now they truly comprehended, like adolescents and no longer children, the power of free will, having truly exercised it, whereas all had been blind obedience up till then.

[InCognitus]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:52 AM, TheTanakas said:

My family and I have been reading this manual for the last few weeks.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-book-of-mormon-2020/intro?lang=eng

I had a question on these passages.

256 - Corianton believed that punishment for sins was not fair (see Alma 42:1). But 
Alma taught that there is a way to escape from the "state of misery" that sin puts us 
in.

What sin put Adam and Eve in their state of misery?

I have a curiosity question for you:  What are the numbers in front of the statements that you posted?   You have "256 - Corianton believed....", and "258 - How can we use..."  Where did those numbers come from?

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, gav said:

Agreed. What specific evil did they gain knowledge of? They gained experiential knowledge of disobedience and defiance. The war in heaven was one of disobedience and defiance and Michael had led the forces countering that defiance... Now he exercised his own will in defiance of a direct and clear directive with full knowledge of the consequences. Something that could only be understood in the committing of the act. I doesn't seem like there was any other way.

Right, because Eve had ALREADY been beguiled into eating the fruit, which meant she would then be subject to death and the only way for Adam to stay with her was for Adam to eat the fruit too.

I still wonder what might have happened if Eve came to Adam BEFORE she ate some of the fruit from that tree and they asked our Father something like... how exactly are we supposed to produce children now?

And I still like to think that our Father would have been able to tell them how they would be able to do it without them knowing or finding out anything about anything that is evil.

Quote

But now they truly comprehended, like adolescents and no longer children, the power of free will, having truly exercised it, whereas all had been blind obedience up till then.

Not necessarily.  They could very well have known what they were doing in heaven and why they made the choices they made back then, and us too.  We just don't remember much about that right now.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Ahab

[gav]

24 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not necessarily.  They could very well have known what they were doing in heaven and why they made the choices they made back then, and us too.  We just don't remember much about that right now.

I should have qualified... blind obedience up till then in the garden. I agree a certain amount of latitude must have existed in the pre-existence, after all, lucifer could get himself kicked out.

[gav]

It's just less likely for us to show our true colours with Daddy watching over our shoulders, hence the need for a "fallen" space outside His presence and a fall to get us there.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, gav said:

I should have qualified... blind obedience up till then in the garden. I agree a certain amount of latitude must have existed in the pre-existence, after all, lucifer could get himself kicked out.

i still don't accept the idea of blind obedience.  We do what we do because we see a good reason to do it, otherwise we do not do that. 

And what were Adam and Eve told to do in the garden other than our Father telling them to not eat that fruit?  Enjoy themselves.  Yeah, right.  Like they knew how to to that?

[TheTanakas]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

I have a curiosity question for you:  What are the numbers in front of the statements that you posted?   You have "256 - Corianton believed....", and "258 - How can we use..."  Where did those numbers come from?

Hi.  Those are the page numbers.