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Male Figurines From Ancient Judah Might Depict the God of the Bible


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22 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Can you at least acknowledge that El and Yahweh didn't approve of the sexual orgies in the Asherah groves?  Or just didn't approve of the way the Canaanites were worshipping Asherah?

Asherah may truly be a name for one of our Mothers in heaven but that doesn't mean that everyone who knows her name should worship her, or that everyone who thought they were worshipping her was worshipping her correctly.

As I understand the argument, because God did not kill the priests of Asherah in the contest with Elijah, but killed the priests of Baal, by implication God approved Asherah's sexual orgies. 

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3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

As I understand the argument, because God did not kill the priests of Asherah in the contest with Elijah, but killed the priests of Baal, by implication God approved Asherah's sexual orgies. 

Can I ask who is making this argument, precisely?

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1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Can I ask who is making this argument, precisely?

It's a rather degenerate argument isn't it?

According to Dever and Barker, post exilic scribes rewrote history to chararactize our God Asherah as an undesirable woman. 

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4 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

It's a rather degenerate argument isn't it?

According to Dever and Barker, post exilic scribes rewrote history to chararactize our God Asherah as an undesirable woman. 

Mr. Crockett, with respect, I have never heard these things, and I'm rather familiar with what Barker and Peterson have actually said. Your characterization seems to be the mischaracterization here. 

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4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Nope.   Israel clearly worshipped her as the one true God, or maybe consort god.  There were images in the Temple.  Her history was written out of the Hebrew Bible, according to Margaret Barker and others.  

We'll, Adam/Michael had Eve, Heavenly Father has Heavenly Mother(s).

Why shouldn't Yaweh/Jehovah have a female consort.  After all the Gods made male and female in their image.  Neither is the man without the woman in the LORD.

Perhaps Asherah is a name for Jehovah's wife.

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1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Mr. Crockett, with respect, I have never heard these things, and I'm rather familiar with what Barker and Peterson have actually said. Your characterization seems to be the mischaracterization here. 

Time to hear new shocking things. 

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

We'll, Adam/Michael had Eve, Heavenly Father has Heavenly Mother(s).

Why shouldn't Yaweh/Jehovah have a female consort.  After all the Gods made male and female in their image.  Neither is the man without the woman in the LORD.

Perhaps Asherah is a name for Jehovah's wife.

I like how she is thoroughly condemned as an abomination every time she is mentioned.  Imagine that.  God marries someone worse than a prostitute.  

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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

Time to hear new shocking things. 

The problem is, Mr. Crockett, the people you are quoting are not saying what you say they are saying. I respect your right to adhere to your interpretation but I must say that it is entirely unconvincing and unsupported, more of a caricature than anything else. Barker, as quoted by Peterson, has said that Asherah idols were found in the temple of Israel and that the Deuteronomists altered the scriptural history to erase them. This is not even close to declaring Asherah to be Israel's God, which is what you are saying. 

I cannot help but feel that you've been through this on this board before. 

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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

I like how she is thoroughly condemned as an abomination every time she is mentioned.  Imagine that.  God marries someone worse than a prostitute.  

You have heard what they said about Mary Magdalene in the medieval period right?

Types and shadows...

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8 hours ago, pogi said:

 It appears that it is hard to find an archaeologist who agrees with him:

Quote

His theory was firmly rejected by all archaeologists who agreed to respond to Garfinkel’s premise. Some would not give it the time of day, while others said it is not coincidental that his article was printed in a mainstream magazine and not an academic journal.

“Unfortunately, this article is pure sensationalism that caters to popular, money-generating, demand, in presenting an unfounded and (at best) tentative identification as factual as he ignores existing professional research and studies, including avoiding reference to any of the publications by the excavators,” wrote Tel Motza excavation co-directors Shua Kisilevitz (Israel Antiquities Authority and Tel Aviv University) and Oded Lipschits (Tel Aviv University), whose finds served as a major basis for Garfinkel’s article.

What you are actually witnessing here is warfare between archeologists at Tel Aviv Univ and those (like Garfinkel) at the Hebrew Univ in Jerusalem (where I studied).  Garfinkel is a star.  His excavation at Khirbet Qeiyafa is an extraordinary case of a Davidic fortress, a city with two gates (biblical Sha'arayim "Two-Gates"), a sanctuary, steel swords, and an early Canaanite or proto-Hebrew inscription.  Various figurines have frequently been found in all Canaanite and Hebrew villages and cities, including Asherah figurines.  The prophets complained about it, but many Israelites ignored their demands.

As to figurines of YHWH and El, please note that Canaanite and biblical 'El is repeatedly referred to as a Bull, and bull iconography appears repeatedly in the Bible – if only as a mount (vahana) for a visible or invisible ʼEl.[1]  William F. Albright liked to point out that such iconography first had El riding on the back of a bull, and later only the bull would be present (an invisible El on his back).  That is the real story behind the controversy over Jeroboam's bulls in the temples or sanctuaries at Dan and Bethel in the Northern Kingdom of Israel.[2]

[1] See G. N. Knoppers, "Aaron's Calf and Jeroboam's Calves," in A. Beck, A. Bartelt, P. Raabe, and C. Franke, eds., Fortunate the Eyes That See: Essays in Honor of David Noel Freedman in Celebration of His Seventieth Birthday (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1995), 92-104.

[2] Amihai Mazar, “The ‘Bull Site’ – An Iron Age I Open Cult Place,”BASOR, 247 (Summer 1982):27-42, online at https://www.jstor.org/stable/1356477?seq=1 .

220px-Bull_site_statuette.png    

Bronze Israelite bull.              

yahweh-asherah-jar-drawing.ashx

"Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah," and "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah," Kuntillet Ajrud.

synagogue%20beit%20alpha-330x335-640w.jp

Yahweh as Helios (with chariot and horses at center) in a synagogue in Galilee

 

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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10 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Nope.   Israel clearly worshipped her as the one true God, or maybe consort god.  There were images in the Temple.  Her history was written out of the Hebrew Bible, according to Margaret Barker and others.  

So now we know who wears the pants in our eternal family.

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6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

You have heard what they said about Mary Magdalene in the medieval period right?

Types and shadows...

Who is the OT prophet who married a prostitute? It is all there.

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8 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

The problem is, Mr. Crockett, the people you are quoting are not saying what you say they are saying. I respect your right to adhere to your interpretation but I must say that it is entirely unconvincing and unsupported, more of a caricature than anything else. Barker, as quoted by Peterson, has said that Asherah idols were found in the temple of Israel and that the Deuteronomists altered the scriptural history to erase them. This is not even close to declaring Asherah to be Israel's God, which is what you are saying. 

I cannot help but feel that you've been through this on this board before. 

Blissfully ignoring the truth. 

Nephi and his Asherah.  Did God Have a Wife.  Asherah's image in Canaanite households as well as the temple.  A god worshipped through the ages.  Then Barker's conclusions.  The authorities Fever has relied on since the 1970s 

A major paradigm shift.  

She was a God, maybe God Him/Her self. 

 

Edited by Bob Crockett
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14 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

As I understand the argument, because God did not kill the priests of Asherah in the contest with Elijah, but killed the priests of Baal, by implication God approved Asherah's sexual orgies. 

Have never heard that argument.  Sounds more like a red herring.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Have never heard that argument.  Sounds more like a red herring.

Others made that exact argument on this board, up to but not including the last 13 letters and an apostrophe. 

Do you deny that Asherah is a goddess in the pantheon, one that we should worship! Isn't that the subtext of Dr. Peterson's article?  I believe it!

Edited by Bob Crockett
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3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Others made that exact argument on this board, up to but not including the last 13 letters and an apostrophe. 

Do you deny that Asherah is a goddess in the pantheon, one that we should worship!

Quit using a motte and bailey argument. Asherah being a goddess in the pantheon does not equate with being the True God of Israel as you have previously claimed. 

Nor does it imply that the Israelite pantheon was correct. 

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4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Others made that exact argument on this board, up to but not including the last 13 letters and an apostrophe

Do you deny that Asherah is a goddess in the pantheon, one that we should worship! Isn't that the subtext of Dr. Peterson's article?  I believe it!

I have many times argued on this board that your misinterpretation of what Peterson said goes against the standard archeological understanding as well as against the biblical texts.  Moreover, since you throw your own "last 13 letters and an apostrophe" under the bus, it seems that you don't even support your own misstatement of Peterson.  In any case, since you cannily rest your case on a "subtext," I'm not even sure that we pin down something so elusive and imaginary.

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23 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

the Great I AM

ayer asher ayer

 

Is the 'asher' in this phrase equivalent to 'ashera'? I take it as yes, but I don't really know Hebrew so I could be way off.

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2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

ayer asher ayer

 

Is the 'asher' in this phrase equivalent to 'ashera'? I take it as yes, but I don't really know Hebrew so I could be way off.

Much has been made of the name.   Asher was a son of Jacob.  

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4 hours ago, Maidservant said:

ayer asher ayer

Is the 'asher' in this phrase equivalent to 'ashera'? I take it as yes, but I don't really know Hebrew so I could be way off.

No.  The Hebrew phrase ehye asher ehye "I Am that I am," uses the demonstrative adjective asher "which, that."

The Hebrew name of the Goddess 'Asherah never appears as such in the KJV.  Instead they translate it there as "groves" for the tree or pole which symbolized her (Ex 34:13, Judg 3:7, I Kings 18:19, II Kings 23:6, Deut 12:3, 16:21, etc.)..  'Asherah is the same as earlier Ugaritic (Canaanite) 'AthiratuʼIlu [El] and ʼAthiratu are the head god and goddess in the Ugaritic (Canaanite) pantheon.  As I showed above, some Israelites saw her as the consort of Yahweh, but they were clearly out of harmony with the biblical prophets.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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