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'The Righteous Need Not Fear'


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23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I still say it was about the lack of PPE. Even at the time they were telling the public not to hoard masks many voices were giving that as the reason for the recommendation and not that they were useless. They were right that we were less sure how effective they would be but with the limited supply it was better to use them in health care settings.

They did both as you say and as the Mayo Clinic and University of California and other authoritative sources I could provide  said. Hence the confusion.

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2 hours ago, longview said:

Please stop posting the rambling blatant lies of Trump's favorite witch doctor. If you want to take a possibly dangerous placebo instead of taking real precautions I guess you can risk your own life but please stop trying to convince other to follow you off the cliff.

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Such a strong noble fellow you are( Not really)....I would say more but we are not supposed to be political.  I guess I am not surprised that you parrot he whom we will not name.  

If we want to name it after someone we can blame for the spread of the disease I suppose we could call it the CCP virus. After all they downplayed the severity, hid medical information to maintain calm, insisted it would go away on its own, and tried to cover up and minimize the outbreak. Of course they were not the only ones to do this and another person followed the same program and got a much higher body count. Definitely lose the flu part as it is not similar to other flu strains. Perhaps a composite name recognizing all of those who aided the virus's spread? The "Commie T***p Virus"? I like it. I would accept it as a compromise.

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1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

Polio is considered eradicated in the USA, but not all countries including countries close to the US like Mexico.

The wild virus is eradicated from Mexico and almost every other country (minus 2).  Unfortunately, Mexico and others may have some vaccine derived cases.  Which makes me mad that countries are still using live vaccine for polio. 

Edited by pogi
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1 minute ago, pogi said:

The wild virus is eradicated from Mexico and almost every other country (minus 2).  Unfortunately, Mexico and others may have some vaccine derived cases.

From what I read one of the two (Afghanistan) was making positive strides. At least every major player in the region finally publicly supports vaccination. I suspect the current situation is not helping though.

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And the mask confusion continues....those stubborn Dutchfolks.

https://www.politico.eu/article/as-europe-masks-up-coronavirus-covid19-the-netherlands-dithers/

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55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And the mask confusion continues....those stubborn Dutchfolks.

https://www.politico.eu/article/as-europe-masks-up-coronavirus-covid19-the-netherlands-dithers/

I have already addressed this in the other thread:

 
Quote

 

  On 7/29/2020 at 8:24 PM, bsjkki said:

And to add to the confusion. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-netherlands-idUSKCN24U2UJ

“Because from a medical perspective there is no proven effectiveness of masks, the Cabinet has decided that there will be no national obligation for wearing non-medical masks” Van Ark said.

What confusion?  Who is confused?  Can you point me to any organization in the public health sector in the WORLD that doesn't believe that masks work?  Can you point to one political party?  Good luck finding any politician even.  Any major religious organizations?  Any country in the world discouraging masks?     

When people stop forwarding quotes from Facebook which are taken entirely out of context, maybe the needless "confusion" will finally abate once and for all.  Let's let the article speak for itself:

  Quote

 

RIVM chief Jaap van Dissel said that the organization was aware of studies that show masks help slow the spread of disease but it was not convinced they will help during the current coronavirus outbreak in the Netherlands.

He argued wearing masks incorrectly, together with worse adherence to social distancing rules, could increase the risk of transmitting the disease.

“So we think that if you’re going to use masks (in a public setting) ... then you must give good training for it,” he said.

Mask are currently required only on public transportation in the Netherlands and in airports.

 

In other words, they DO believe that masks work.  For some reason, they think their own people are too stupid to learn what any 3 1/2 year old (my child) can learn to do in 5 minutes - properly wear a mask.  For some reason (without providing any evidence) they also believe that wearing a mask might encourage people to disregard social distancing rules.  That is nuts!  I have observed the complete opposite.  It is those who wear masks that also social distance, it is those who do not wear masks that don't social distance.  

Why would masks be required on public transit and airports if they didn't think they worked.  Apparently people can properly wear masks in those place but nowhere else? 

Are we still talking about masks?  Seriously?

Look what mask mandates have done to numbers in Salt Lake County.  Look at our numbers state wide after the Area Presidency sent out their letter.  There is direct correlation. 

 

 

Edited by pogi
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16 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have already addressed this in the other thread:

 

 

As I said, the confusion continues.

I will note yet once again that I am not against mask wearing. I wear them myself.  I do believe it gives us a false sense of security because the vast majority of people do not follow the safety protocols involved in mask wearing and think they are some kind of magic bullet. In my misinformed opinion that is dangerous.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

As I said, the confusion continues.

I am simply suggesting that this article is no reason to be a source of confusion unless people take it out of context.  

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I do believe it gives us a false sense of security because the vast majority of people do not follow the safety protocols involved in mask wearing and think they are some kind of magic bullet. In my misinformed opinion that is dangerous.

I don't believe that is true.  My experience is that most people wear them properly and are not more careless with social distancing because they are wearing them. 

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On 7/30/2020 at 10:33 AM, The Nehor said:

I still say it was about the lack of PPE. Even at the time they were telling the public not to hoard masks many voices were giving that as the reason for the recommendation and not that they were useless. They were right that we were less sure how effective they would be but with the limited supply it was better to use them in health care settings.

Fauci thought it was better to mislead the public instead of telling the public the truth. This has led to 'confusion' and distrust. At the time they thought it was the best call...and it could have been. But, I think the cloth mask making genius's would have been just as talented early on to meet the marketing need. The American people, in the beginning were very willing to do what was asked of them. Since disparate treatment and poor messaging by many, that trust and willingness has eroded. 

"He also acknowledged that masks were initially not recommended to the general public so that first responders wouldn’t feel the strain of a shortage of PPE.

He explained that public health experts "were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply.” 

By early April, the Strategic National Stockpile had been depleted, and around the same time President Trump invoked the Defense Production Act to have manufacturing chains across the U.S. focus on making vital medical equipment such as ventilators and masks. 

Fauci continued to say that they wanted to give as many masks as possible to front line workers and emergency personnel.

“We wanted to make sure that the people, namely the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who you know were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected,” Fauci concluded."

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

Full video. https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-directive-coronavirus

He talks about physical separation being the most important thing...but he would not recommend restricting protests. He would call out 'crowds' but not 'protests.'

"Keep the physical distance and wear a mask."

All the things Fauci did discuss by name. https://www.eatthis.com/fauci-covid-danger-places/

 

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12 hours ago, pogi said:

I am simply suggesting that this article is no reason to be a source of confusion unless people take it out of context.  

I don't believe that is true.  My experience is that most people wear them properly and are not more careless with social distancing because they are wearing them. 

I have to disagree. I don't share your optimism based on personal observations in stores, restaurants, trails, etc. Now and then I've seen someone wash their hands after taking off a mask. Never before. Usually they come out of the store, take off the mask, and put it in their purse or pocket or toss it in a garbage can or on the ground. I find them in parking lots and shopping carts all the time.  There are many photos of political and other leaders with the mask drooping from an ear or slid down under the chin so they can talk. On a trail at Mt Rainier, there were people wearing masks while hiking alone. Same with bikers and folks walking around our town on busy streets. I've seen tons of people who have a kind of balaclava, gaiter, or neck scarf set up where they pull the mask up over their face and then pull it back down. Guys and gals with t-shirts stretched up to cover their mouths. Do you think most people are following these CDC guidelines? I don't.

Quote
Wear your Mask Correctly
  • Wash your hands before putting on your mask
  • Put it over your nose and mouth and secure it under your chin
  • Try to fit it snugly against the sides of your face
  • Make sure you can breathe easily
 
fitting a cloth facemask to your face. The mask should cover from below your chin to above your nose, and be pinched to fit the bridge of your nose snugly.

 

 
Image of people wearing masks correctly and other people wearing them incorrectly.

 

Wear a Mask to Protect Others

  • Wear a mask that covers your nose and mouth to help protect others in case you’re infected with COVID-19 but don’t have symptoms
  • Wear a mask in public settings when around people who don’t live in your household, especially when it may be difficult for you to stay six feet apart
  • Wear a mask correctly for maximum protection
  • Don’t put the mask around your neck or up on your forehead
  • Don’t touch the mask, and, if you do, wash your hands or use hand sanitizer to disinfect

Follow Everyday Health Habits

  • Stay at least 6 feet away from others
  • Avoid contact with people who are sick
  • Wash your hands often, with soap and water, for at least 20 seconds each time
  • Use hand sanitizer if soap and water are not available
 
Illustration of two individuals with masks on standing 6 feet apart

 

 
Illustration of a person removing a face mask

 

Take Off Your Mask Carefully, When You’re Home

  • Untie the strings behind your head or stretch the ear loops
  • Handle only by the ear loops or ties
  • Fold outside corners together
  • Place mask in the washing machine (learn more about how to wash masks)
  • Be careful not to touch your eyes, nose, and mouth when removing and wash hands immediately after removing.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

https://local21news.com/news/nation-world/house-speaker-nancy-pelosi-says-nationwide-mask-mandate-long-overdue-06-29-2020

Real women wear masks under their chin.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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I'm dead. We live in crazy land.

"Fauci said his message to the protesters is that “this is something that is hurting from the standpoint of economics” but that re-opening too soon could cause even more harm. His comments on ABC’s “Good Morning America” contrasted with remarks made by President Donald Trump, who has encouraged the protests."

It's all xxxxxxxx.

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9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have to disagree. I don't share your optimism based on personal observations in stores, restaurants, trails, etc. Now and then I've seen someone wash their hands before putting on or taking off a mask. Usually they come out of the store, take off the mask, and put it in their purse or pocket. There are many photos of political and other leaders with the mask drooping from an ear or slid down under the chin so they can talk. I find them in parking lots and shopping carts all the time. On a trail at Mt Rainier, there were people wearing masks while hiking alone. Same with bikers and folks walking around our town on busy streets. I've seen tons of people who have a kind of balaclava, gaiter, or neck scarf set up where they pull the mask up over their face and then pull it back down. Guys and gals with t-shirts stretched up to cover their mouths. Do you think most people are following these CDC guidelines? I don't.

I agree that people are not washing their hands enough, but that is the least of my concerns.  It is more important that they actually wear the mask.  Surface contamination through touch is not near as big a deal as droplet and aerosol spread. 

While there is no need to wear a mask while hiking, biking, or walking around town alone, it won't hurt anything/anyone either. 

I was mostly responding to your concern that wearing a mask might actually be making matters worse.  All indications from Mask mandates in Salt Lake County suggest that it is working.  Numbers have really dived after the Area Presidency put out their letter. It is working.  

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On 7/23/2020 at 4:16 PM, Ahab said:

I'm not afraid.  And I am also not stupid.  I know how COVID is transmitted and I am choosing to be as safe as I can be while also trying to keep my family safe.  We shouldn't do stupid things while thinking we are being brave.

It was not an indictment of any kind, just to poll the room. 

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On 7/23/2020 at 9:20 PM, Rain said:

I find it REALLY weird that people keep saying I am living in fear. 

Is this directed at me? If so I did not suggest you are, “living in fear”. 

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5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Fauci thought it was better to mislead the public instead of telling the public the truth.

CFR

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

He would call out 'crowds' but not 'protests.'

bsjkki, I have a hard time believing you are saying this in good faith.   I just recently provided proof that he did call out the protests.  Why do you insist on smearing Fauci?  What is your obsession with him?  He is a good man and a humble public servant, doing an excellent job.   This incessant and relentless smear campaign by you is seriously getting annoying.  Stop sewing discord and distrust when we need the opposite.  He is trustworthy.  He is the best man for the job.  

Edited by pogi
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5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

He also acknowledged that masks were initially not recommended to the general public so that first responders wouldn’t feel the strain of a shortage of PP

 

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

CFR

 

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24 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

He also acknowledged that masks were initially not recommended to the general public so that first responders wouldn’t feel the strain of a shortage of PP

I don’t think he ever tried to hide it.  “When you think of masks, think of first responders” (Fauci).

 That didn’t answer my CFR.  You accused him of being misleading and not telling the truth.

Wanting masks for first responders is not misleading.  He was telling the truth, and he was right for doing so.

He also was working on limited knowledge of how it was spread, and when transmission rates were still very low.

Edited by pogi
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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Please stop posting the rambling blatant lies of Trump's favorite witch doctor. If you want to take a possibly dangerous placebo instead of taking real precautions I guess you can risk your own life but please stop trying to convince other to follow you off the cliff.

So ... because the woman is a) black and b) over exhuberent and hails from subsaharan africa she's a witch doctor?

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49 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So ... because the woman is a) black and b) over exhuberent and hails from subsaharan africa she's a witch doctor?

🙄

Racism is wrong — unless the target is someone woke leftists despise. 
 

And so it goes. 

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9 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that people are not washing their hands enough, but that is the least of my concerns.  It is more important that they actually wear the mask.  Surface contamination through touch is not near as big a deal as droplet and aerosol spread. 

While there is no need to wear a mask while hiking, biking, or walking around town alone, it won't hurt anything/anyone either. 

I was mostly responding to your concern that wearing a mask might actually be making matters worse.  All indications from Mask mandates in Salt Lake County suggest that it is working.  Numbers have really dived after the Area Presidency put out their letter. It is working.  

All the articles I have read warn that improper use can increase risk of infection. So I’m good with ignoring the instructions to wear the mask properly? Not really important as long as I’ve just got something on my face? 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/07/health/how-to-wear-mask-properly-wellness-trnd/index.html

Quote

CNN)So, about masks -- they do next to nothing if you don't wear them properly. 

Yep, even the cloth coverings touted as the best thing since social distancing have instructions. We've laid them out below, based on guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization.

And remember: Masks are effective only if they cover your mouth, nose and chin. And however tempting it may be to remove your mask for a moment, doing that could expose your fingers and face to the very virus you're trying to avoid. 

Keep that and more in mind when wearing your mask -- If we all do it right, we could save 33,000 lives.

The article cites the CDC and WHO and have even more instructions than I listed above. Who is right? You or them? Just more confusion.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

All the articles I have read warn that improper use can increase risk of infection. So I’m good with ignoring the instructions to wear the mask properly? Not really important as long as I’ve just got something on my face? 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/07/health/how-to-wear-mask-properly-wellness-trnd/index.html

The article cites the CDC and WHO and have even more instructions than I listed above. Who is right? You or them? Just more confusion.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.  I didn’t say your “good to ignore instructions”, or “it’s not really important...”.  That is not good faith dialogue.  I said “it is more important to... “  there is a difference.

Why do I get the feeling people are intentionally trying to skew the words of other people to sew confusion?  It took my child longer to learn how to put on his shirt by himself then it did for him to learn how to wear a mask properly.  If you accidentally touch your mask or don’t have means to wash your hands before and after placement, it’s not the end of the world.  It is still safer to wear it than not to in those specific instances.  Obviously, if it is down over your nose or is being improperly used in other obvious ways, then it is not effective, but with most scenarios, it is not going to increase your risk of infection compared to not wearing it.  I don’t see anywhere that the CDC or WHO disagrees or suggests otherwise.  In all of my nursing schooling we spent a total of probably 2 minutes or less talking about how to properly wear a mask. I haven’t read anything “confusing” from the CDC, and yes I read your link.  Maybe it is simply your misrepresentation of my words to make it appear as if I disagree with the CDC that is confusing to you. 
 

Edited by pogi
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23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If you want to take a possibly dangerous placebo instead of taking real precautions I guess you can risk your own life but please stop trying to convince other

Perhaps Dr. Fauci’s most deadly mistake is his response to hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) treatments for the disease.
Dr. Fauci cheered the use of hydroxychloroquine in treating the MERS coronavirus in 2013 but for some reason resists its use today in treating the China coronavirus.

C19Study tracks the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine in treating coronavirus.

The countries that pushed HCQ use early have had the most success in treating the disease.

hcq-effectiveness-600x330.jpg

The website tracked all of the current international studies on HCQ use in treating the coronavirus.

It is clear at this point that the top US medical professionals are KILLING Americans by downplaying the success of HCQ in treating the coronavirus.

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12 hours ago, pogi said:

Please don’t put words in my mouth.  I didn’t say your “good to ignore instructions”, or “it’s not really important...”.  That is not good faith dialogue.  I said “it is more important to... “  there is a difference.

This is what you said: "I agree that people are not washing their hands enough, but that is the least of my concerns.  It is more important that they actually wear the mask." That was in response to my list of things I have personally observed that violate basic protocols in addition to hand washing. 

Quote

Why do I get the feeling people are intentionally trying to skew the words of other people to sew confusion?  It took my child longer to learn how to put on his shirt by himself then it did for him to learn how to wear a mask properly.  If you accidentally touch your mask or don’t have means to wash your hands before and after placement, it’s not the end of the world.  It is still safer to wear it than not to in those specific instances.  Obviously, if it is down over your nose or is being improperly used in other obvious ways, then it is not effective, but with most scenarios, it is not going to increase your risk of infection compared to not wearing it.  I don’t see anywhere that the CDC or WHO disagrees or suggests otherwise.  In all of my nursing schooling we spent a total of probably 2 minutes or less talking about how to properly wear a mask. I haven’t read anything “confusing” from the CDC, and yes I read your link.  Maybe it is simply your misrepresentation of my words to make it appear as if I disagree with the CDC that is confusing to you. 
 

No, I don’t think so. From the start there have been contradictory instructions from individuals and organizations in authority. Because I am high risk I have done my due diligence in reading authoritative and media sources. I am thoroughly convinced masks are critical. While information has become more consistent over time, there still are credentialed people and even countries making confusing statements.

However, I have also read many authoritative statements like the one I quoted above and even some that say improper use is more dangerous than no use...

Quote

...they do next to nothing if you don't wear them properly....,”

“Face masks are one way to protect yourself and others from the spread of coronavirus, but they're only effective when worn properly....” 

What am I to conclude? I gave a list of things I observe regularly that are gross violations of improper wear.

 Of course I respect your expertise and good will, but what I see in real life here where I live and in the media is a whole lot of people putting on window dressing but ignoring basic protocols. That concerns me. What I think makes matters worse is the false sense of security many have by thinking simply putting on the mask is a silver bullet. You seem to disagree with my assessment. I’m fine with that.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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13 hours ago, USU78 said:

So ... because the woman is a) black and b) over exhuberent and hails from subsaharan africa she's a witch doctor?

 

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

🙄

Racism is wrong — unless the target is someone woke leftists despise. 
 

And so it goes. 

I think I said it first.  I am not a leftist.  It has nothing to do with where she is from or the color of her skin.  It has to do with her witchy medical views of having sex with “witches and demons” and alien DNA bologna.  That sounds like witch doctor nonsense to me, not standard medical practice based in scientific and medical theory.  There is nothing racist about calling her a witch doctor, I use it to discredit her medical views which are intertwined with witch theories.  I would say the same thing if she was a white Norwegian doctor spitting out witch medicine.

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