'The Righteous Need Not Fear'

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have found, and could list copious Scriptures, and endless sermons, from many pulpits. Especially sermons giving in General Conference, but doing so would makes the opening of this thread much more cumbersome. Currently However many areas when the Church is located, have once again, began to conduct Sacrament Meetings. However there are restrictions, and from what I understand, these limits take on many restrictions, such as “who can, and cannot attend, placing restrictions on (or with) meeting schedules, conditions that limit older members, etc”. Currently here in Georgia, we have not yet returned to any meetings, other than Youth Activities. In addition, the media (both Local and Nationwide) have so many, so frightened, that near our home, hundreds line up along a a four lane highway, motorists, are running out of gas, just to be tested. Because of this, the police have to get involved, to keep those waiting, from breaking traffic laws, assisting those who run out of gas, and to keep others from breaking traffic laws, or to keep some from getting into fights. An odd type of “road rage”, when those who leave the line to get gas, wanting to reclaim their place in line. 

Even members, as well as friends on Facebook, are frightened, to the point that some speak of not returning to Church, until this pandemic is over, or a vaccine is discovered, and they can get it. Which begs the question; if we “follow the Prophet”, then why do we fear? Unlike other Faith’s, we not only have a Prophet, but he is a Doctor. What are we learning, as it relates to the Scripture, “lf ye are prepared, ye need not fear”. 
 

Anyway, your thoughts? 

[Meadowchik]

I don't think the saying is about throwing caution to the wind. Good stewardship is important and part of a courageous life.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Even members, as well as friends on Facebook, are frightened, to the point that some speak of not returning to Church, until this pandemic is over, or a vaccine is discovered, and they can get it. Which begs the question; if we “follow the Prophet”, then why do we fear?

It is our Church leaders here (i.e. area presidency) who have told people that they need not return to church if they feel vulnerable. I don't think prudent caution and/or personal revelation are therefore evidence of fear or disobedience.

[rpn]

Being careful isn't about fear.  It is about reasoned decision-making individualized to our own risk calculations.   Our leaders have told us that no one is obligated to return to church at this point (and that will likely go on for a long time, the current rising numbers aren't promising).

 

ETA:  And the quote doesn't promise life either.   Righteous need not fear because dying when they've been living discipleship the best they know how and quickly repenting is just passing into another part of their lives, fully perfect in Christ through the atonement.   The quote doesn't for a moment promise the righteous won't be killed, or die of plague or whatever else there might be to fear.

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by rpn

[Islander]

24 minutes ago, rpn said:

Being careful isn't about fear.  It is about reasoned decision-making individualized to our own risk calculations.   Our leaders have told us that no one is obligated to return to church at this point (and that will likely go on for a long time, the current rising numbers aren't promising).

 

ETA:  And the quote doesn't promise life either.   Righteous need not fear because dying when they've been living discipleship the best they know how and quickly repenting is just passing into another part of their lives, fully perfect in Christ through the atonement.   The quote doesn't for a moment promise the righteous won't be killed, or die of plague or whatever else there might be to fear.

 

Very true. Many times, however, we couch fear beneath a vernier of reason or caution. The fact is that many people are really attached to this life and this earth when they should not worry about it. We are NOT citizens of this kingdom.

We take all necessary precautions. But if it is our time to depart, it is our time. "And to be with Christ is gain..." says the scriptures. 

At the end, the virus will not go away. It is now moving within the human genome and is here to stay. Everybody is going to get it, just like the common flu. Next week, month, year. Even after a vaccine becomes available, there are by now 2 or more strains of the virus. The vaccine will not cover all of them. So, even after receiving the vaccine the probability of getting infected, at some point in time, is nearly 100%. 

[MustardSeed]

People of certain cults are told not to fear death as they are drinking the Koolaid. 

I'm satisfied doing all I can to be worthy of Gods blessings and to also do my part to make intelligent choices and respect life.

[rodheadlee]

D&C 42:

46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not ^ataste of ^bdeath, for it shall be ^csweet unto them;

[USU78]

Sir William, if and when it's our time, it'll be our time. Life's such a mixed bag of sorrow and joy, pain and delight. It's breathtaking sometimes, and I find myself weeping at the beauty of it all. I feel like one day I might be singing the valor and dancing the defeats of mankind before the Throne, like Tinuviel, bringing tears to His eyes.

And what's so scary about that?

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, Islander said:

Very true. Many times, however, we couch fear beneath a vernier of reason or caution. The fact is that many people are really attached to this life and this earth when they should not worry about it. We are NOT citizens of this kingdom.

We take all necessary precautions. But if it is our time to depart, it is our time. "And to be with Christ is gain..." says the scriptures. 

At the end, the virus will not go away. It is now moving within the human genome and is here to stay. Everybody is going to get it, just like the common flu. Next week, month, year. Even after a vaccine becomes available, there are by now 2 or more strains of the virus. The vaccine will not cover all of them. So, even after receiving the vaccine the probability of getting infected, at some point in time, is nearly 100%. 

When I was a child the polio virus was so omnipresent that we all were required to be vaccinated and to receive a yearly booster thereafter. I still clearly remember standing in long lines to receive immunizations from public health personnel, initially with conventional hypodermic needles, later with a pistol-like device pressed against the arm, and still later, a sugar cube with a drop of serum applied to it. What a great day that was, when we could eat a cube of sugar instead of getting stuck in the arm. Then, the day came when we no longer had to receive a polio vaccine at all. 
 

Has polio truly been eradicated? Perhaps there are some corners of the globe where the virus still exists. All I know is that it no longer poses a threat to me or to anyone I know. 
 

Perhaps you are right that the China virus is here to stay and that we all will “get it.”  I just don’t see how anyone can be certain of that at this point. 

[USU78]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When I was a child the polio virus was so omnipresent that we all were required to be vaccinated and to receive a yearly booster thereafter. I still clearly remember standing in long lines to receive immunizations from public health personnel, initially with conventional hypodermic needles, later with a pistol-like device pressed against the arm, and still later, a sugar cube with a drop of serum applied to it. What a great day that was, when we could eat a cube of sugar instead of getting stuck in the arm. Then, the day came when we no longer had to receive a polio vaccine at all. 
 

Has polio truly been eradicated? Perhaps there are some corners of the globe where the virus still exists. All I know is that it no longer poses a threat to me or to anyone I know. 
 

Perhaps you are right that the China virus is here to stay and that we all will “get it.”  I just don’t see how anyone can be certain of that at this point. 

At one point it was safe to say that poliomyelitis was exterminated worldwide, to a great extent through the efforts of Rotary International. We raised billions and provided vaccination worldwide including in places you wouldn't imagine.

Then international politics intervened. Evil-doers started working against the efforts. 

[HappyJackWagon]

17 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I have found, and could list copious Scriptures, and endless sermons, from many pulpits. Especially sermons giving in General Conference, but doing so would makes the opening of this thread much more cumbersome. Currently However many areas when the Church is located, have once again, began to conduct Sacrament Meetings. However there are restrictions, and from what I understand, these limits take on many restrictions, such as “who can, and cannot attend, placing restrictions on (or with) meeting schedules, conditions that limit older members, etc”. Currently here in Georgia, we have not yet returned to any meetings, other than Youth Activities. In addition, the media (both Local and Nationwide) have so many, so frightened, that near our home, hundreds line up along a a four lane highway, motorists, are running out of gas, just to be tested. Because of this, the police have to get involved, to keep those waiting, from breaking traffic laws, assisting those who run out of gas, and to keep others from breaking traffic laws, or to keep some from getting into fights. An odd type of “road rage”, when those who leave the line to get gas, wanting to reclaim their place in line. 

Even members, as well as friends on Facebook, are frightened, to the point that some speak of not returning to Church, until this pandemic is over, or a vaccine is discovered, and they can get it. Which begs the question; if we “follow the Prophet”, then why do we fear? Unlike other Faith’s, we not only have a Prophet, but he is a Doctor. What are we learning, as it relates to the Scripture, “lf ye are prepared, ye need not fear”. 
 

Anyway, your thoughts? 

"If ye are prepared" by wearing masks, social distancing, following other counsel by qualified health professionals, I agree that we don't need to live in fear. But we can't be "unprepared" and ignore the health professionals and expect to be protected. That's just silliness.

I've seen many (various denominations) claim the No Fear mantra as if having faith in God will prevent them from getting sick. It doesn't. It never has. The religiously faithful are just as capable of becoming ill as the non-religious.

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Sir William, if and when it's our time, it'll be our time. Life's such a mixed bag of sorrow and joy, pain and delight. It's breathtaking sometimes, and I find myself weeping at the beauty of it all. I feel like one day I might be singing the valor and dancing the defeats of mankind before the Throne, like Tinuviel, bringing tears to His eyes.

And what's so scary about that?

 I've heard people, including my father, say similar things as if the time of their death is inevitable. Again, pure silliness. If that were true there would never be a need to take safety or health precautions because the time and cause of death are part of God's plan that can't be altered. It's a defeatist and determinist attitude that I don't believe has any value to people who are trying to live a productive life and act as good stewards of their lives.

[USU78]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've heard people, including my father, say similar things as if the time of their death is inevitable. Again, pure silliness. If that were true there would never be a need to take safety or health precautions because the time and cause of death are part of God's plan that can't be altered. It's a defeatist and determinist attitude that I don't believe has any value to people who are trying to live a productive life and act as good stewards of their lives.

You'd never considered that age might have some wisdom to convey on such subjects? When you know and can finally clearly see the goal line, even if you don't know and cannot know how many yards you still have to gain, you tend to adjust your thinking. Time speeds up. It's very interesting.

It's not a death wish and it's certainly not a disdain for good sense. It's acquiring greater humility and a recognition of the limitations of our control over events, along with a recognition of inevitabilities.

But I don't find it particularly scary. Perhaps my near fatal coronary last year colors things. I was given a gift, you see.

[cacheman]

oops

Edited July 23, 2020 by cacheman
didn"t mean to post

[Islander]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps you are right that the China virus is here to stay and that we all will “get it.”  I just don’t see how anyone can be certain of that at this point. 

Viral mutation rates varies. The poliovirus has a very slow rate of mutation and massive vaccination campaigns were able to reduce infection rates to about a couple of hundred cases per year worldwide presently.

HIV however can replicate to 10 million particles per day from a sigle viral particle. That makes for a very fast mutation rate. For influenza is 10⁻³ to 10⁻⁴ which makes it very difficult to create one  vaccine that would create permanent immunity. That's why a flue shot is required every year to cover 2 strains or so but you still could get sick. And everyone has been inflected with the flu at one point or another in their lives. A similar scenario is unfolding for COVID-19. We'll get a vaccine but we are liable to get the bug any how at some point, because the vaccine will be, at best 70-80% effective. 

[Meadowchik]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've heard people, including my father, say similar things as if the time of their death is inevitable. Again, pure silliness. If that were true there would never be a need to take safety or health precautions because the time and cause of death are part of God's plan that can't be altered. It's a defeatist and determinist attitude that I don't believe has any value to people who are trying to live a productive life and act as good stewards of their lives.

Also, if the righteous need not fear death, they also need not fear good work. Do the good work of preparation, prevention, and csution. Don't scoff at it as if it is only the vocation of the faithless.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When I was a child the polio virus was so omnipresent that we all were required to be vaccinated and to receive a yearly booster thereafter. I still clearly remember standing in long lines to receive immunizations from public health personnel, initially with conventional hypodermic needles, later with a pistol-like device pressed against the arm, and still later, a sugar cube with a drop of serum applied to it. What a great day that was, when we could eat a cube of sugar instead of getting stuck in the arm. Then, the day came when we no longer had to receive a polio vaccine at all. 
 

Has polio truly been eradicated? Perhaps there are some corners of the globe where the virus still exists. All I know is that it no longer poses a threat to me or to anyone I know. 
 

Perhaps you are right that the China virus is here to stay and that we all will “get it.”  I just don’t see how anyone can be certain of that at this point. 

Infants still generally get a polio vaccine in the US. Polio is making a comeback in some areas.

Pakistan is notable. The CIA launched a localized fake Hepatitis B vaccination group in a weird attempt to try to confirm Bin Laden was there back in 2011. This understandably undermined trust in vaccinations and led to quite a few murders of vaccination doctors. A large polio vaccination campaign in Pakistan was put on hold due to COVID but has restarted since it did not end quickly enough and keeping vaccination crews safe is, of course, difficult. There are also a lot of ridiculous antivaxxer misinformation campaigns about how vaccines are packed with pig fat or alcohol or other things forbidden in Islam.

Edit: Polio does mutate quickly but rarely in a way that dodges the vaccine. There have been weird edge cases where the polio vaccine has "gotten out" and mutated to become an active infection. Thankfully the vaccine still works on these cases. One of the main reasons to vaccinate is that decreasing the spread also decreases the chance of a polio mutation that will "beat" the vaccine.

 

I would also recommend not calling it the "China virus". While it is too late to rename the Hong Kong flu (probably started in Hong Kong) and the Spanish flu (almost certainly did not start in Spain) we really should stop.

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by The Nehor

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

You'd never considered that age might have some wisdom to convey on such subjects? When you know and can finally clearly see the goal line, even if you don't know and cannot know how many yards you still have to gain, you tend to adjust your thinking. Time speeds up. It's very interesting.

It's not a death wish and it's certainly not a disdain for good sense. It's acquiring greater humility and a recognition of the limitations of our control over events, along with a recognition of inevitabilities.

But I don't find it particularly scary. Perhaps my near fatal coronary last year colors things. I was given a gift, you see.

I guess I don't equate fatalism with humility.

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I have found, and could list copious Scriptures, and endless sermons, from many pulpits. Especially sermons giving in General Conference, but doing so would makes the opening of this thread much more cumbersome. Currently However many areas when the Church is located, have once again, began to conduct Sacrament Meetings. However there are restrictions, and from what I understand, these limits take on many restrictions, such as “who can, and cannot attend, placing restrictions on (or with) meeting schedules, conditions that limit older members, etc”. Currently here in Georgia, we have not yet returned to any meetings, other than Youth Activities. In addition, the media (both Local and Nationwide) have so many, so frightened, that near our home, hundreds line up along a a four lane highway, motorists, are running out of gas, just to be tested. Because of this, the police have to get involved, to keep those waiting, from breaking traffic laws, assisting those who run out of gas, and to keep others from breaking traffic laws, or to keep some from getting into fights. An odd type of “road rage”, when those who leave the line to get gas, wanting to reclaim their place in line. 

Even members, as well as friends on Facebook, are frightened, to the point that some speak of not returning to Church, until this pandemic is over, or a vaccine is discovered, and they can get it. Which begs the question; if we “follow the Prophet”, then why do we fear? Unlike other Faith’s, we not only have a Prophet, but he is a Doctor. What are we learning, as it relates to the Scripture, “lf ye are prepared, ye need not fear”. 
 

Anyway, your thoughts? 

The ongoing relentless efforts to frighten us have been quite successful. When a positive or negative story comes out that might allay fears, within a day or two there will be articles that contradict it and maintain the fear level. It is not possible to know the truth or determine reliable sources.

So, if "we are prepared, ye need not fear," IMO, means those who have not procrastinated the day of their repentance should not fear death. Of course there are other implications, such as being self-sufficient, etc.

But we must remember that no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[USU78]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I guess I don't equate fatalism with humility.

We disagree. Including on the subject of recognition of inevitability being a different thing entirely from fatalism 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would also recommend not calling it the "China virus". While it is too late to rename the Hong Kong flu (probably started in Hong Kong) and the Spanish flu (almost certainly did not start in Spain) we really should stop.

 

I called it that because it started in China. 
 

How about the Wu flu? 
 

Edited to add: Political correctness is the second worst epidemic to grip the nation in 2020. Fortunately, I’ve developed a resistance to the strain. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[MustardSeed]

34 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I called it that because it started in China. 
 

How about the Wu flu? 
 

Edited to add: Political correctness is the second worst epidemic to grip the nation in 2020. Fortunately, I’ve developed a resistance to the strain. 

Decorum.  ahem. 

[Ahab]

23 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I have found, and could list copious Scriptures, and endless sermons, from many pulpits. Especially sermons giving in General Conference, but doing so would makes the opening of this thread much more cumbersome. Currently However many areas when the Church is located, have once again, began to conduct Sacrament Meetings. However there are restrictions, and from what I understand, these limits take on many restrictions, such as “who can, and cannot attend, placing restrictions on (or with) meeting schedules, conditions that limit older members, etc”. Currently here in Georgia, we have not yet returned to any meetings, other than Youth Activities. In addition, the media (both Local and Nationwide) have so many, so frightened, that near our home, hundreds line up along a a four lane highway, motorists, are running out of gas, just to be tested. Because of this, the police have to get involved, to keep those waiting, from breaking traffic laws, assisting those who run out of gas, and to keep others from breaking traffic laws, or to keep some from getting into fights. An odd type of “road rage”, when those who leave the line to get gas, wanting to reclaim their place in line. 

Even members, as well as friends on Facebook, are frightened, to the point that some speak of not returning to Church, until this pandemic is over, or a vaccine is discovered, and they can get it. Which begs the question; if we “follow the Prophet”, then why do we fear? Unlike other Faith’s, we not only have a Prophet, but he is a Doctor. What are we learning, as it relates to the Scripture, “lf ye are prepared, ye need not fear”. 
 

Anyway, your thoughts? 

I'm not afraid.  And I am also not stupid.  I know how COVID is transmitted and I am choosing to be as safe as I can be while also trying to keep my family safe.  We shouldn't do stupid things while thinking we are being brave.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I called it that because it started in China. 
 

How about the Wu flu? 
 

Edited to add: Political correctness is the second worst epidemic to grip the nation in 2020. Fortunately, I’ve developed a resistance to the strain. 

It's about being polite and respectful, not political correctness. But I will say that using racial and nationalistic terms in a derogatory way dehumanizes those people and creates a fear and anger towards them. I'm sure that's not what you're intending, but whether Chinese Flue, Kung Flu, Wu Flu, whatever, it's pretty rude and may also contribute towards increased violence in this country against people of Asian origin.

[pogi]

21 hours ago, Islander said:

Very true. Many times, however, we couch fear beneath a vernier of reason or caution. The fact is that many people are really attached to this life and this earth when they should not worry about it. We are NOT citizens of this kingdom.

We take all necessary precautions. But if it is our time to depart, it is our time. "And to be with Christ is gain..." says the scriptures. 

At the end, the virus will not go away. It is now moving within the human genome and is here to stay. Everybody is going to get it, just like the common flu. Next week, month, year. Even after a vaccine becomes available, there are by now 2 or more strains of the virus. The vaccine will not cover all of them. So, even after receiving the vaccine the probability of getting infected, at some point in time, is nearly 100%. 

Covid is in the human genome?  Your probabilities are a little premature and suspect.   Thank you for stating that we should take all necessary precautions however. 

[Islander]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Covid is in the human genome?  Your probabilities are a little premature and suspect.   Thank you for stating that we should take all necessary precautions however. 

RNA viruses replicate and transcribe their genomes using RNA-dependent RNA polymerases. Their genomes can be either RNA or DNA. Retroviruses are ssRNA viruses that replicate through a human DNA intermediate, thus requiring a virus-encoded RNA-dependent DNA polymerase (reverse transcriptase).

What I mean is that the virus is moving thru the world population and it will remain there, just like influenza. For all practical purposes it is using human DNA to replicate and spread.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Islander