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Reminds me of "Hymn of the Pearl/Soul/Robe", known by various names, which is quite old, possibly first or second century, but that is prose, at least as translated 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/fff/fff58.htm

I love it because it's pure LDS Doctrine but first century.

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Reminds me of "Hymn of the Soul/Robe", which is quite old, possibly first or second century, but that is prose, at least as translated 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/fff/fff58.htm

 

That is most interesting! 

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Going through one of my Grandmother's diary books, I found this poem clearly derived from the hymn "Oh My Father," which was her dad's favorite. Both he and his brother-in-law wrote music and poetry, so perhaps one of them composed this earlier and she copied it here in her book in 1961. While it has the flavor of the nostalgic poetry her father loved, I don't know when, where, or by whom it was originally written. Has anyone seen this before? Comments?

 

I like it, A LOT! 

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7 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I like it, A LOT! 

I thought you might. :)

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11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Reminds me of "Hymn of the Pearl/Soul/Robe", known by various names, which is quite old, possibly first or second century, but that is prose, at least as translated 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/fff/fff58.htm

I love it because it's pure LDS Doctrine but first century.

 

I love that piece. It was an uncanny match to a dream I had (with some bits changed) years before I read it.

i like the hymn too. I suspect one line is doctrinally suspect but as A close metaphor it works. :) 

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I love that piece. It was an uncanny match to a dream I had (with some bits changed) years before I read it.

i like the hymn too. I suspect one line is doctrinally suspect but as A close metaphor it works. :) 

Which line was that? I am sure there are several, actually, but which one caught your eye?

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That is  beautiful  ans brought tears to my eyes.

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6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Which line was that? I am sure there are several, actually, but which one caught your eye?

Yeah, there is more but the part where it is "Father's Law" caught my eye in particular.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, there is more but the part where it is "Father's Law" caught my eye in particular.

I are referring to this part of the poem I quoted?

Quote

How you gave me Words of Counsel to guide aright my straying feet,

How you taught by true example all of Father’s laws to keep.

While I strive in this probation, how to learn the gospel truth

May I meet with your approval, as I did in early youth.

How is this doctrinally suspect?

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On 7/22/2020 at 11:31 AM, mfbukowski said:

Reminds me of "Hymn of the Pearl/Soul/Robe", known by various names, which is quite old, possibly first or second century, but that is prose, at least as translated 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/fff/fff58.htm

I love it because it's pure LDS Doctrine but first century.

 

There is little, if any at all, truth in Gnosticism.

Edited by Damien the Leper
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3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I are referring to this part of the poem I quoted?

How is this doctrinally suspect?

Though I did make the original comment I think there is a way, if you want to be very technical. God has decided to subject himself to natural law so strictly speaking his law is natural law but not particularly his law.

Yet I think most members would never notice or think about that. Obviously as a poem and or hymn it is just simply beautiful all the way down. :)

As has been said he is the only God upon whom our existence depends.

And I don't think such an explanation would be very poetic. ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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12 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

There is little, if any at all, truth in Gnosticism.

Unless you are a Gnostic, then all of it is true :)

 One might say that for every religious paradigm which one does not accept. ;)

in this case, it parallels OUR paradigm quite well, if you want to debate that. ;)

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 7/22/2020 at 2:31 PM, mfbukowski said:

Reminds me of "Hymn of the Pearl/Soul/Robe", known by various names, which is quite old, possibly first or second century, but that is prose, at least as translated 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/fff/fff58.htm

I love it because it's pure LDS Doctrine but first century.

 

When I was a little child.
And dwelling in my kingdom, in my Father's house

Who is that child and what kingdom do they have?

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43 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

When I was a little child.
And dwelling in my kingdom, in my Father's house

Who is that child and what kingdom do they have?

This is the pre-existence, and Isee it as a the parable for each of us in leaving Heavenly Parents, coming to the Earth and search of important information we need for our progression, represented by The Pearl, which are scriptures. We encounter evil represented by the Dragon. We lose our way. Our parents send us a letter (scriptures) their plan for us, The Plan of Salvation, and through the scriptures or personal revelation teach us and remind us of our true mission.

The robes represent our body. We leave behind our celestial spirit body/robes and come to Earth to take on the robe or body of our natural body.

The food represents the fall of Adam and Eve, which separates us from God, but is necessary for our progression.

After we are reminded by the letter, we leave that body behind and return and receive our true robes which could represent the different levels of the Celestial Kingdom and our Celestial Telestial or terrestrial bodies.

In these Parables the East is always toward God or the Rising Sun and the West is always toward the Earth or land of the dead, where the sun "dies" daily.  Babel is human speech

Thanks for asking.

I have been studying this stuff a long time and just see these symbols as almost literal to my mind, but are my interpretations. :)

There are many other details paralleled in the temple, such as the final whie "robe" enveloping the traveler

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Though I did make the original comment I think there is a way, if you want to be very technical. God has decided to subject himself to natural law so strictly speaking his law is natural law but not particularly his law.

Yet I think most members would never notice or think about that. Obviously as a poem and or hymn it is just simply beautiful all the way down. :)

As has been said he is the only God upon whom our existence depends.

And I don't think such an explanation would be very poetic. ;)

 

So God enjoys the usufruct of Natural Law?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I are referring to this part of the poem I quoted?

How is this doctrinally suspect?

MFB pointed out one question but there is a more blatant one. In a context where the Father is a reference to the Eloiheim it is appropriate to talk about the law of the Father or God’s Law. When you are differentiating between Father and Mother are we sure it is Their Law or even Mother’s Law.

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6 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

There is little, if any at all, truth in Gnosticism.

I find the "Gnosticim" label to be just another way of dismissing a point of view without examining it, much like the modern day usage of the word "cult".  The word carries with it a wide range of supposed heretical ideas that may or may not be applicable to each situation.  I'm not saying you are responsible for the label, because you are just using the same label that is applied to it by others, but that's also part of my point.  People just pass along a label and as long as we assume the label is correct we think we don't need to look into it any further.

I was looking at the Wikipedia article on the Hymn of the Pearl, and it says, "The hymn is commonly interpreted as a Gnostic view of the human condition, that we are spirits lost in a world of matter and forgetful of our true origin.  This state of affairs may be ameliorated by a revelatory message delivered by a messenger, a role generally ascribed to Jesus. The letter thus takes on a symbolic representation of gnosis."  Do you find any truth at all in that statement?   I can definitely see why some feel this might fit within the realm of Gnosticism, but it hardly fits the broad picture of Gnosticism as it is widely applied, which the Wikipedia defines as:  

Quote

"...a collection of ancient religious ideas and systems which originated in the first century AD among early Christian and Jewish sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) over orthodox teachings, traditions, and the authority of the church. Viewing material existence as flawed or evil, Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Jehova of the Old Testament)[2] who is responsible for creating the material universe."  (etc. etc.)

I don't like labels for this very reason.  I prefer to make my own judgment on where it fits.

Edited by InCognitus
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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

MFB pointed out one question but there is a more blatant one. In a context where the Father is a reference to the Eloiheim it is appropriate to talk about the law of the Father or God’s Law. When you are differentiating between Father and Mother are we sure it is Their Law or even Mother’s Law.

We’ll be sure to ask when we meet them. In the meantime we’ll just have to make do with Alma 13. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Would that poems and thoughts like this were as ubiquitous in LDS teachings as those about Heavenly Father! We need both righteous spiritual models.

Thanks for sharing.

Edited by Meadowchik
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18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So God enjoys the usufruct of Natural Law?

Yes, juicyfruit is his favorite. ;)

But as The Greatest Pragmatist, He doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, and does "what has been done on other worlds". 

Hey if it works, it works ;)

And being immanent helps Him keep the kids in line. Can't parent too well in the Floating Cloud of Nothing mode. Too hard to change those metaphoric diapers.

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15 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I find the "Gnosticim" label to be just another way of dismissing a point of view without examining it, much like the modern day usage of the word "cult".  The word carries with it a wide range of supposed heretical ideas that may or may not be applicable to each situation.  I'm not saying you are responsible for the label, because you are just using the same label that is applied to it by others, but that's also part of my point.  People just pass along a label and as long as we assume the label is correct we think we don't need to look into it any further.

I was looking at the Wikipedia article on the Hymn of the Pearl, and it says, "The hymn is commonly interpreted as a Gnostic view of the human condition, that we are spirits lost in a world of matter and forgetful of our true origin.  This state of affairs may be ameliorated by a revelatory message delivered by a messenger, a role generally ascribed to Jesus. The letter thus takes on a symbolic representation of gnosis."  Do you find any truth at all in that statement?   I can definitely see why some feel this might fit within the realm of Gnosticism, but it hardly fits the broad picture of Gnosticism as it is widely applied, which the Wikipedia defines as:  

I don't like labels for this very reason.  I prefer to make my own judgment on where it fits.

The first step, as Joseph said is to KNOW the nature of God.

Yet other churches answer every question with the phrase " It's a mystery" while preaching that they have the truth.

How do you know the truth without being a "gnostic" in some sense?

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Gnosticism is salvation by knowledge. In that sense it is heresy. The Church has gnostic elements in the sense that you have to know of the Savior and learn the secrets of eternity via revelation aided by the Scriptures, Temple (similar to mystery religions), and inspired recorded words. No one can be saved in ignorance. The esoteric knowledge is still not what saves.

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22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This is the pre-existence, and Isee it as a the parable for each of us in leaving Heavenly Parents,

Ok, If I assume you are one of the little children , what is your kingdom that you had before you
came to Earth?

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10 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

Ok, If I assume you are one of the little children , what is your kingdom that you had before you
came to Earth?

Uh, no Kingdom.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/premortality?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/man-antemortal-existence-of?lang=eng

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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