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Will Divisions Regarding Masks Impact Activity?


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6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Apparently they removed the no sitting tape for spacing. 

That's funny.  It actually looks like there is still one piece of purple tape stretched across one row on the right.  They put the tape back up to indicate the row is full :) 

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Yes, that is why you hear of such extensive brain damage of surgeons who do hours long surgeries, sometimes multiples per day. (you actually don’t hear of this in case anyone missed my sarcasm) A

I live in San Francisco and I ride my bike a lot throughout the city.  I rarely see anyone, young or old not wearing a mask.  I wear my mask while bike riding.  I don't think I am at risk to myself or

I work in a kindergarten, and those kids do NOT social distance.  However, requiring them to wear masks or face shields is completely reasonable.  Little kids are pretty flexible about meeting new rul

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17 minutes ago, pogi said:

That's funny.  It actually looks like there is still one piece of purple tape stretched across one row on the right.  They put the tape back up to indicate the row is full :) 

Or they just didn’t bother to rip that off because it wasn’t in their way as they had entered from the other side. 
 

 Commissioner Bill Lee unfortunately fed their need as he took off his own mask to show support when meeting beforehand as well as during the meeting and he wanted to discuss the dismissal, but was overruled by the two others. I think he talked with the no mask group afterwards. 
 

Iirc, he is okay with mandated masks at schools as long as teachers are given the right to make exceptions. I can see some getting pressured by parents to make their kid the exception because it makes them unable to go concentrate, etc, so I don’t think that wise. The principal should be the only one and only with a doctor’s note. Plus I think there should be a separate no mask class. 

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13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I love the moral of these stories, but at the same time, asking someone to shave just to see if they will do it seems sketchy.  

There might have been a reason though and not just a test...did Brigham know about the flood or just the need to have doublethick walls?  Maybe he avoided a weird freak accident where his beard got caught in something or a horse didn’t get tickled and bolted before he got settled. 
 

I do hate obedience tests on whims or just to see though. We have enough reasons to see if we are obedient in our day to day experiences. 

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Utah County is the youngest county in the nation, with a median age of 24.4 years old, according to the 2018 Utah County Community Assessment. About 34 percent of the county is younger than 18, and 9.7 percent is under the age of 5. In Saratoga Springs, half of the population is under the age of 19.

Working on getting the estimated number of kids who could die...

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/02/22/utah-county-still-home/

If I did the math right, about 127,000 school age kids in Utah County. Assuming all returning to school...

To compare, 2018 deaths numbered  for children 1-14 in Utah was 14 per 100,000
 

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/child-death-rate/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel={"colId":"Location","sort":"desc"}

I have seen a death rate per 100,000 for under 18 at .0016 which gives a little over 200 deaths, another was .0011, which yields a little over 150 deaths per 100,000.

I need to find number of deaths from 15-19 as that is likely higher than deaths of 4 and below (they should be subtracted from the 14 as not school age), but I suspect at most they are maybe 30 more, which probably gives a high end total of 40 per 100,000 or about a total of 50 deaths.  Covid adding 150...

Number could be lowered by keeping high risk kids at home, but I have read reports of healthy kids dying. 
 

Then there are the crippling long term effects that some kids could now have to live with for the rest of their lives. 
 

And let’s not forget the much higher risks for teachers. 
 

At the very, very least, aren’t the lives of 150 kids worth making teachers, parents, and children all wear masks?  Those who don’t want to should take on the consequences for themselves by teaching their kids at home. 
 

Going off the school district numbers, there are about 140,000 kids, so number of estimated deaths would be higher. 

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9 minutes ago, Calm said:

There might have been a reason though and not just a test...did Brigham know about the flood or just the need to have doublethick walls?  Maybe he avoided a weird freak accident where his beard got caught in something or a horse didn’t get tickled and bolted before he got settled. 
 

I do hate obedience tests on whims or just to see though. We have enough reasons to see if we are obedient in our day to day experiences. 

Definitely could be.  

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

So much for learning from New York’s example. Maybe third time will be the charm?

I wish I could have that hope.  Yesterday we had an elected official saying the media is overdoing it.  He compared our death rate to New York's to show its not so bad here.

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57 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

 

I wish I could have that hope.  Yesterday we had an elected official saying the media is overdoing it.  He compared our death rate to New York's to show its not so bad here.

Please, we should require any politician saying this stuff to work as a morgue attendant for a week

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On 7/16/2020 at 10:46 AM, MustardSeed said:

As I see large groups of active members and particularly people in my ward get assertive and aggressive about their position on masks I feel more alienated.  I wonder if people will feel like I feel and take that alienation mean a loss of testimony? (I don’t, but I certainly feel less unity and more comfort worshiping from home.)

In our ward, returning to Church meetings on the Sunday’s we hold them is entirely optional. We are still authorized to administer sacrament at home (assuming there is one with authority who is present). 
 

Those who have an issue with masks may stay home with the full blessing and approval of the bishop. I see no reason why this should cause division or a loss of activity. 

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My Stake has not gone back to church and will not for some time. This in an area with very few cases and 0ne death in 6 months from covid. Also you will see very few wearing masks. The spit shields are in most commercial places however. 

To Tacenda, if you get to enter either East Glacier or West Glacier lodges check out the construction out of massive trees. Also the " Going to the Sun " highway is worth a drive to the summit unless you are behind a 30 ft. trailer >

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10 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

My Stake has not gone back to church and will not for some time. This in an area with very few cases and 0ne death in 6 months from covid. Also you will see very few wearing masks. The spit shields are in most commercial places however. 

To Tacenda, if you get to enter either East Glacier or West Glacier lodges check out the construction out of massive trees. Also the " Going to the Sun " highway is worth a drive to the summit unless you are behind a 30 ft. trailer >

our Stake has left it up to the Bishops as to when to reopen and how to do it. Crazily enough 4 wards need new Bishopric members, the whole temple situation, sell a building, keep the YSA? and a new Mission Presidency Counselor, lots of decisions to be made coming up

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If the Chapel, over-flow, gym, are used only for 99 people or less. and each group is 6ft or more apart....masks are not really necessary. (not the time to debate aerosolzation).  But yes the divisiveness of mask is just absurd. 

More accurate to say "MAY NOT BE NECESSARY".    We do not know everything yet.   And the science currently says maybe we need 10 ft distance instead of 6, and there isn't any science about 99 or 50 people comparative safety.    People who refuse masks in buildings (without a medical reason) are simply selfish.    The opposite of discipleship of Jesus Christ.    Even when for them the issue is being told by government what to do/compelled, it results is increased risk of exposure and for some of those exposed, serious consequences.     "He that must be commanded in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant."   

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1 hour ago, Boanerges said:

Part of the reason New York's death toll is so much higher is because we learned from New York's mistakes. Early on doctors didn't know what the best treatments were. They intubated everybody almost upon admission. Turns out not intubating until absolutely necessary is better. They were experimenting with different drug treatments. Turns out some helped, some hurt, some helped some people but not others and some hurt some people and not others. They didn't know the main way the disease spreads is via droplets. And like other places, nursing homes are hot beds for spread of the disease. Once it gets in one it can't be stopped. New York has lots of nursing homes and to clear some hospital space for others the governor ordered active cases be sent to nursing homes - big mistake. Demographically, New York's population is much older than many other states, in particular Utah which is demographically quite young. Old people often have health conditions making them more susceptible to COVID death. Side note: my mother-in-law is in a nursing home and did test positive. She spent three weeks on the COVID unit at the nursing home but is a COVID survivor. She was asymptomatic. 

What we can learn from New York is what's happening now. Physical distancing, limited gatherings, and masks - it works.

Regarding kids. It's not so much that the kids themselves are in danger although a few kids have died. It seems that for some reason the disease affects kids more mildly except those with other serious medical conditions. Many adults are infected but asymptomatic or with only mild symptoms as well. The issue with kids is like the asymptomatic adult - why are they spreading it to? Grandpa? The nice old lady next door who looks after them a few minutes after school if Mom isn't home yet? The masks are to protect you from getting COVID, they to protect others from getting it from you - they prevent your droplets.

Oh, I know.  From what I gather, many of our health care workers have learned much from New York and I'm really grateful for that.  I'm also grateful that many of our businesses, like the one my husband works for, who learned from New York and sent home those that could easily work from home.  These measures I believe have kept us from having the rate New York had...so far. 

My concern is that this politician is using the New York comparison to show we're not as bad. That we don't need to take precautions.

I'm really glad to know about the intubations. That has been one trend that has really confused me.  While nearly every other stat has been an overall uptrend intubations have had blocks of up and down.  Though it still confuses me how it does that while ventilators go slowly, but steadily higher. What you say tells gives me more info of what is going on there.  

I know Pogi is really busy and much of his work is heartbreaking, but at times like this I think it would be really cool to be involved in solving all the mysteries. It will be interesting to see how it all works together when we are past it.

 

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15 hours ago, Calm said:

So you will allow them to stay unmasked?  Even though they are putting at risk those willing to comply?  If so, I don’t see much difference between that and the bishop who says recommended but not required.  I applaud your personal view, just thinking this is one of the few times consequences for not obeying should be immediate. They need to leave. 

I can see your point on this totally. I just think when a bishop says they "are not required" when, in fact, they are, is an invitation for people to disobey. It's a lot like saying "we want you to obey the traffic laws, but you don't have to." I think it is better to say, "please obey the traffic laws," and leave it to them to be obedient or not. 

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57 minutes ago, california boy said:

No one is saying that if we all wear masks, covid will disappear. ...

What? :huh:

Oh. :unsure:

Sorry.  :huh:

Don't mind me. :unknw:

(Yes, I know, it's a serious topic.  Yes, I know, People ... Are .... DYING ... Ken!, but if the two choices are (1) laugh, or (2) scream ...)

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13 hours ago, strappinglad said:

My Stake has not gone back to church and will not for some time. This in an area with very few cases and 0ne death in 6 months from covid. Also you will see very few wearing masks. The spit shields are in most commercial places however. 

To Tacenda, if you get to enter either East Glacier or West Glacier lodges check out the construction out of massive trees. Also the " Going to the Sun " highway is worth a drive to the summit unless you are behind a 30 ft. trailer >

Thanks for the hints, I'm oblivious on what to see or where. We will be sure to avoid the 30 foot trailers, lol! In some research I saw the "Going to the Sun" drive. Do you know if it's straight off the cliff with railings, etc. Growing up my dad would get our family in some precarious situations with a trailer on back where our wheels would almost slide off the mountain, while as a child I'd be down on the floor crying/screaming. I'm a bigger boob now, lol. 

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Don't know if I'm crossing the line here, but thought it interesting.

If mods want me to take it down, hopefully they tell me soon before I'm unable to edit.

0?e=1597881600&v=beta&t=-AvyZ4dsqp1RnVrlIPgl-Q7mQ0fdhd5sHy9op4qI4KU&fbclid=IwAR1cJG95qT9rnmDmGXQAiEJl6F3md8IAW7E0WFkEozl1tQfSSfx9xaOWB-U

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On 7/16/2020 at 9:46 AM, MustardSeed said:

As I see large groups of active members and particularly people in my ward get assertive and aggressive about their position on masks I feel more alienated.  I wonder if people will feel like I feel and take that alienation mean a loss of testimony? (I don’t, but I certainly feel less unity and more comfort worshiping from home.)

I can't imagine anyone would loose their testimony over this issue and I do hope that people will not judge each other no matter what personal decision they make for themselves.

So far, our Stake President is giving everyone a choice regarding the masks.  We are to be respectful and social distance.

His emphasis is that we absolutely do not judge others or have any contention or problems because of choices we each have to make.  I'm a big advocate of having the right to choose and don't want to see anything forced on anyone here.  So far, I've seen members handling this very well too 👍

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5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

What? :huh:

Oh. :unsure:

Sorry.  :huh:

Don't mind me. :unknw:

(Yes, I know, it's a serious topic.  Yes, I know, People ... Are .... DYING ... Ken!, but if the two choices are (1) laugh, or (2) scream ...)

Most days when I read the news, I do both (1) and (2)

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21 hours ago, Calm said:


 

Working on getting the estimated number of kids who could die...

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/02/22/utah-county-still-home/

If I did the math right, about 127,000 school age kids in Utah County. Assuming all returning to school...

To compare, 2018 deaths numbered  for children 1-14 in Utah was 14 per 100,000
 

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/child-death-rate/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel={"colId":"Location","sort":"desc"}

I have seen a death rate per 100,000 for under 18 at .0016 which gives a little over 200 deaths, another was .0011, which yields a little over 150 deaths per 100,000.

I need to find number of deaths from 15-19 as that is likely higher than deaths of 4 and below (they should be subtracted from the 14 as not school age), but I suspect at most they are maybe 30 more, which probably gives a high end total of 40 per 100,000 or about a total of 50 deaths.  Covid adding 150...

Number could be lowered by keeping high risk kids at home, but I have read reports of healthy kids dying. 
 

Then there are the crippling long term effects that some kids could now have to live with for the rest of their lives. 
 

And let’s not forget the much higher risks for teachers. 
 

At the very, very least, aren’t the lives of 150 kids worth making teachers, parents, and children all wear masks?  Those who don’t want to should take on the consequences for themselves by teaching their kids at home. 
 

Going off the school district numbers, there are about 140,000 kids, so number of estimated deaths would be higher. 

I'm super worried about the messes they'll make in their masks. I know when I've sub'd there's a lot of runny noses and sneezing going on, to the point that they spray all over. I hope we have an ample amount of masks on hand to replace the snotty ones. And tons of hand sanitizer and soap, and a huge one...disinfectant wipes.

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Most days when I read the news, I do both (1) and (2)

No kidding!  I hear ya! :rolleyes:

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On 7/16/2020 at 12:46 PM, MustardSeed said:

As I see large groups of active members and particularly people in my ward get assertive and aggressive about their position on masks I feel more alienated.  I wonder if people will feel like I feel and take that alienation mean a loss of testimony? (I don’t, but I certainly feel less unity and more comfort worshiping from home.)

I have injuries and disabilities that keep me from going out as much as much as I did, except when going to doctors far too often. Yesterday I had to go to the doctor, which marks the longest amount of time wearing a mask (for me) to date. Twice that day, I got overheated and nearly passed out. Once at the Doctor’s office, and while at the grocery store afterwards with my wife. Here in the Southeast, (Georgia) where  the heat and humidity can cause even the healthy to get overheated and dehydrated, masks have proven a real difficult thing for many. We have not even begun to attend Church again, so I am unsure how my friends and family in the Church will react. This because it is unclear if my wife and I, and many of my friends will be allowed back into Church meetings, masks or otherwise, since we are all over the age of 60. From what I understand, those areas of the Country who have returned, do not allow those over 60 to attend Church meetings. In addition, rumors have been floating around that we might, or rather the Church might, along with other areas of public life, begin “scaling back”, on all public meetings and activities. This will of course make the debate about “wearing masks”, in Church, “moot”. 
 

In any event, many do feel very strongly that the wearing of masks, or rather the “requirement” to do so, is serious overkill. This because it is a virus that has 99.96%,  survivability rate, according to many in the medical field. Having said this, if the Church requires members to do so, I would think most if not all will, or would comply, even if begrudgingly. As Latter-day Saints, we are all aware that we have many rules as a Church and Community. We are also aware that we are different that most other Faiths, and that we have a Priesthood structure, and the necessity of obedience, order, and to “Follow the Prophet”. My fear of inactivity concerning members, is for those who have to stay away too long, that their spirits beginning to shrink, and testimonies doing so as well. So if we do begin to scale back of the little we have begun to do, and keep older members away even longer, there will be little to nothing left to debate. Except in the abstract, in forums such as this. 

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