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Interesting Article Re Byu Student Fighting Racism


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8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

But wouldn't that make these programs more attractive?  Wouldn't that lead to more long-term reliance on these programs?

This assumes that people want to stay on the program if they have a way out. The myth of the welfare queen is a myth. The problem is getting just enough money to maintain that level of poverty and not enough to get out of the poverty cycle...for black communities. 
 

Phone is going to die and grandkids coming over, so will provide more evidence later, but some of this is in the two links. 

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

traits more than others because they are more profitable?

Or at least it is believed they are more profitable. 
 

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If white privilege was a thing, we would expect to see black Americans and black Africans equally deprivileged when compared to white Americans. 

Not if there were other factors involved as well. 
 

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According to median household income statistics from the US Census Nureau, several non-white minority groups substantially out-earn whites.  These groups include Pakistani Americans, Lebanese Americans, South African Americans, Filipino Americans, Sri Lankan Americans and Iranian Americans (in addition to several others).  Indians are the highest earning ethnic group, with almost double the household median income of whites. 

Household income includes all salaries of residents.  If there are more than two wage earners in the house, this will dramatically increase income. We also need to look at comparative educational and social standing of immigrants in their previous country. Did it go up, down, or stay the same?  Is this different for nonwhites than whites?

My experience is limited, so not even suggesting it might apply, just using as example. The Asian immigrants in Canada I knew tended to be multigenerational for the first generation, had substantial funding when they moved there, and moved on up in status. The Hispanics I knew had funding and were also multigenerational in living arrangements, but took hits in status as they were doctors or professors that worked in blue collar jobs instead of where they trained. Next generation went up from parents’ status, but still didn’t rate the original country’s status. There were fewer black immigrants I knew there, they were low income to begin with and stayed low income, so not really able to draw conclusions there. 

Edited by Calm
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Why so much focus on things like money and schools?  The biggest problem with racism is that it fosters hate... the desire to get rid of what people do not like about a person's "race" or culture.

If we want to get rid of racism we need to develop more love toward people who are different from us.  People with white skin loving people with black skin, and vice versa.  Also loving people with brown or yellow or red skin, too.

Money doesn't solve racism, and schools don't solve the problem either.  We all just need to love all people more than we do, regardless of any person's skin color.

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17 minutes ago, Calm said:
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But wouldn't that make these programs more attractive?  Wouldn't that lead to more long-term reliance on these programs?

This assumes that people want to stay on the program if they have a way out.

So black people receive less welfare funds than people of other racial categories?  I'm skeptical of that.

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The myth of the welfare queen is a myth.

Walter Williams doesn't seem to think so.

Same with Thomas Sowell:

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Blame the welfare state, not racism, for poor blacks' problems
Updated Jan 05, 2019; Posted May 07, 2015
By Thomas Sowell

Among the many painful ironies in the current racial turmoil is that communities scattered across the country were disrupted by riots and looting because of the demonstrable lie that Michael Brown was shot in the back by a white policeman in Missouri -- but there was not nearly as much turmoil created by the demonstrable fact that a fleeing black man was shot dead by a white policeman in South Carolina.

Totally ignored was the fact that a black policeman in Alabama fatally shot an unarmed white teenager, and was cleared of any charges, at about the same time that a white policeman was cleared of charges in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.

In a world where the truth means so little, and headstrong preconceptions seem to be all that matter, what hope is there for rational words or rational behavior, much less mutual understanding across racial lines?

When the recorded fatal shooting of a fleeing man in South Carolina brought instant condemnation by whites and blacks alike, and by the most conservative as well as the most liberal commentators, that moment of mutual understanding was very fleeting, as if mutual understanding were something to be avoided, as a threat to a vision of "us against them" that was more popular.

That vision is nowhere more clearly expressed than in attempts to automatically depict whatever social problems exist in ghetto communities as being caused by the sins or negligence of whites, whether racism in general or a "legacy of slavery" in particular.

Like most emotionally powerful visions, it is seldom, if ever, subjected to the test of evidence.

"Emotionally powerful..."

"The test of evidence."

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The "legacy of slavery" argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.

Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.

You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965.

We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact -- for those who still have some respect for facts -- black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, prior to 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less.

Do you disagree with Sowell on this point?  That prior to 1960 (essentially the advent of the widespread welfare state) black poverty was "far worse" and violent crime was "far less?"

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Murder rates among black males were going down -- repeat, DOWN -- during the much lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before.

Most black children were raised in two-parent families prior to the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families.

Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States.

The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period.

Just read "Life at the Bottom," by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.

You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization -- including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain -- without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.

Thoughts?  If the dynamics of "welfare statism" are similar in black America and in Brightisn "white slum neighborhood{s}," might the problem be more about the welfare state than about the color of the skin of those ensnared within it?

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Non-judgmental subsidies of counterproductive lifestyles are treating people as if they were livestock, to be fed and tended by others in a welfare state -- and yet expecting them to develop as human beings have developed when facing the challenges of life themselves.

One key fact that keeps getting ignored is that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits every year since 1994. Behavior matters and facts matter, more than the prevailing social visions or political empires built on those visions.

I find Williams and Sowell to be both informed and persuasive in their views.

Thanks,

-Smac

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49 minutes ago, Calm said:
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So how would you suggest they improve the schools?

That's a big question.

That is apparently going unanswered. 

Yes.  I'm not particularly interested in (or, in the moment, capable of) formulating an informed and meaningful response to your inquiry.  And I'm not particularly interested in throwing out an uninformed, knee-jerk response.  So I didn't answer the question.  I'm not sure why that is objectionable.

Thanks,

-Smac

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Or at least it is believed they are more profitable. 

I think that is right.   We see evolution with many of those perspectives a lot lately, and will continue to see evolution.  New ways of thinking and new corporate cultures are emerging and proving to be profitable that people would have gasped at 30 years ago.  We are more malleable today in terms of culture than we ever have been.  Productivity and creativity matter more than a black suit and tie.  Napping on the job is often encouraged now to boost productivity, etc. 

Edited by pogi
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2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

. I think a more fruitful approach would be attacking poverty, the "supply side" of the systemic disparities

There is evidence in one of the links I posted that people are more willing to help others out of poverty if they are seen as similar rather than different. Thus LBJ chose a white family in poverty to be the ‘poster boy’ of his War on Poverty’ program. And that may be why welfare cuts were passed when Reagan used the “Welfare Queen” as his ‘posterboy’ example. 
 

I will have to dig it up, but inter generational poverty is more prevalent among blacks than whites. Whites at the same poverty level are more likely to have children that escape poverty. If we want to get rid of inter generational poverty, we will need to address the varied causes of it. If the difference between the upward mobility of whites and blacks in poverty is significantly attributed to systemic racism, then we will need to examine how to take that apart if we intend to be effective for all in poverty. 
 

Using Vox as the actual study is 106 pages. link to the study in the article 
 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/21/17139300/economic-mobility-study-race-black-white-women-men-incarceration-income-chetty-hendren-jones-porter

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Conversely, upward mobility for children born into the bottom fifth of the distribution is markedly higher among whites than among black or American Indian children. Among children who grew up in the bottom fifth of the distribution, 10.6 percent of whites make it into the top fifth of household incomes themselves, as do 25.5 percent of Asian-Americans. By contrast, only 7.1 percent of Hispanic children born in the bottom fifth make it to the top fifth, along with 3.3 percent of American Indian children and a tiny 2.5 percent of black children.

We don’t usually think about downward mobility when fighting poverty. It would be interesting to see if the rates indicated here have an effect on the higher income Pogi quoted families’ second generation, or if it mainly relates to African American families that have been in the states for many generations.

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Perhaps unsurprisingly, they find that downward mobility is much higher among black Americans and American Indians than among white, Hispanic, or Asian Americans. White children whose parents are in the top fifth of the income distribution have a 41.1 percent chance of staying there as adults; for Hispanic children, the rate is 30.6 percent, and for Asian-American children, 49.9 percent. But for black children, it’s only 18 percent, and for American Indian children only 23 percent.

Indeed, black and American Indian children born into upper- or upper-middle-class families are nearly as likely to fall to the bottom fifth of the income distribution as to stay in the top fifth.

The whole article is quite interesting and demonstrates there is still much to learn about the dynamics.

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Last month, I retweeted a comment by a contrarian writer who questioned whether racism was to blame for the spread of the coronavirus, and a close (white) friend responded to me with a well-meaning text:

“I feel it is my calling to help end the oppression people of color like you face in our society,” he wrote. “I understand I have white privilege. And that has consequences.”
His message left me feeling bewildered. What “oppression” had I actually faced? And what “privilege” had society conferred upon my friend because of his white skin?

Growing up as a Sikh, turbaned boy in the majority-white environment of British Columbia, Canada, I was a constant target of bullying throughout my elementary school years. On bus rides home, I remember having to sit in the back where the older, “cool” kids hung out, and they used to jump up and slap the top part of my turban. I was consistently harassed with comments like “Go back to where you came from” and “You don’t belong here.”
Upon immigrating from India when I was 4, my family suffered tremendous economic hardships and cultural challenges. My father drove a taxi at night and my mom worked many menial jobs as a cook, housecleaner, barista and motel cleaner. It’s fair to say my family never had success handed to them on a silver platter. But more than a decade post-immigration, we have found our footing in Western society, with my dad making nearly six figures operating his own software company.

Rising from poverty to economic prosperity is a common narrative for immigrants from all backgrounds in the West. For example, after the communist takeover of Cuba in 1959, many refugees fled to America, leaving most of their wealth behind and having to start from the bottom. But by 1990, second-generation Cuban Americans were twice as likely to earn an annual salary of $50,000 than non-Hispanic whites in the United States.

The notion of white privilege stems from the idea that white people have benefited in American history relative to “people of color.” And it’s true that the institution of slavery and the following decades of anti-black dehumanization has a continuing impact today. A major 2013 study from Brandeis University found that 32 percent of the wealth gap between whites and blacks can be attributed to inherited wealth and length of homeownership, two factors linked to institutionalized racism. Meanwhile, Harvard economist Roland Fryer’s much-publicized study on racial bias in policing found that cops are 53 percent more likely to use physical force on black civilians compared to whites (his study, however, found no anti-black bias in fatal police shootings).

Because of facts like these, an emerging definition of white privilege is now being widely circulated on social media: “White privilege doesn’t mean your life hasn’t been hard. It just means your race isn’t one of the things that make it harder.”
And yet, this definition suffers from several shortcomings. For one, it ignores anti-Semitism — the second leading cause of hate crimes in America, according to the FBI. In addition, the growing demonization of whiteness now means that white people are no longer immune to racism. I can think of several instances where friends and colleagues have been racially targeted for being white and holding contrarian but intellectually defensible positions such as “we need to have generous, but reasonable limits on our immigration system” or even “I don’t think racial minorities are systematically oppressed in Western society today.”
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Well-meaning white folk often decry their own whiteness as a means of racial protest but many other groups who otherwise have faced severe marginalization are doing better economically.

And the concept of white privilege can’t explain why several historically marginalized groups out-perform whites today. Take Japanese Americans, for example: For nearly four decades in the 20th century (1913 – 1952), this group was legally prevented from owning land and property in over a dozen American states. Moreover, 120,000 Japanese Americans were interned during World War II. But by 1959, the income disparity between Japanese Americans and white Americans nearly vanished. Today, Japanese Americans outperform whites by large margins in income statistics, education outcomes, test scores and incarceration rates.

One could argue the successful stories of my family, Cuban Americans and Japanese Americans are cherry-picked cases. But whites are far from being the most dominantly successful group in Western society. A wealth of data collected in a longform Quillette analysis, shows overwhelming white underachievement relative to several minority groups among health outcomes, educational achievement, incarceration rates and economic success.
On the whole, whatever ‘systemic racism’ exists appears to be incredibly ineffectual, or even nonexistent, given the multitude of groups who consistently eclipse whites.

According to median household income statistics from the US Census Bureau, several minority groups substantially out-earn whites. These groups include Pakistani Americans, Lebanese Americans, South African Americans, Filipino Americans, Sri Lankan Americans and Iranian Americans (in addition to several others). Indians, the group I belong to, are the highest-earning ethnic group the census keeps track of, with almost double the household median income of whites. In Canada, several minority groups also significantly out-earn whites, including South Asian Canadians, Arab Canadians and Japanese Canadians.

Interestingly, several black immigrant groups such as Nigerians, Barbadians, Ghanaians and Trinidadians & Tobagonians have a median household income well above the American average. Ghanian Americans, to take one example, earn more than several specific white groups such as Dutch Americans, French Americans, Polish Americans, British Americans and Russian Americans. Do Ghanaians have some kind of sub-Saharan African privilege?
Nigerian Americans, meanwhile, are one of the most educated groups in America, as one Rice University survey indicates. Though they make up less than 1 percent of the black population in America, nearly 25 percent of the black student body at Harvard Business School in 2013 consisted of Nigerians. In post-bachelor education, 61 percent of Nigerian Americans over the age of 25 hold a graduate degree compared to only 32 percent for the US-born population.
These facts challenge the prevailing progressive notion that America’s institutions are built to universally favor whites and “oppress” minorities or blacks. On the whole, whatever “systemic racism” exists appears to be incredibly ineffectual, or even nonexistent, given the multitude of groups who consistently eclipse whites.

Despite being prohibited from owning land in the past and being placed in internment camps during WWII, Japanese Americans have been able to close the economic gap and now outperform whites in the US.In fact, because whites are the majority in Canada and America, more white people live in poverty or are incarcerated than any other racial group in those countries. If you were to randomly pick an impoverished individual in America, you are exponentially more likely to pick a white person than a “person of color,” because of population differences. Today, 15.7 million white Americans (almost twice as many as black Americans) live in poverty. Given such facts, why would we deem all white people as privileged, even if whites have lower poverty rates compared to African Americans and Hispanics?

It should also be noted that suicide rates are disproportionately high among the white population. In 2018, whites had the highest suicide rate of 16.03 per 100,000. The New York Times has reported that whites are dying faster than they are being born in a majority of US states — in large part due to high rates of substance abuse and suicide. In comparison, black Americans had a suicide rate less than half of whites (6.96) and Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders had the lowest rate of 6.88 per 100,000. In this context, do blacks and Asians have some kind of unmerited “privilege” they must atone for?

If we look at health outcomes reported by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, we find that African Americans are less likely than whites to die of several health conditions such as bladder cancer, leukemia, esophageal cancer, lung cancer, bladder cancer, brain cancer and skin cancer, to take a few arbitrary examples. But no one in their right mind would protest any “health privilege” enjoyed by African Americans in these instances. And while blacks have the highest COVID-19 death rate, more than double that of whites, the group with the lowest death rate from the coronavirus is actually Asian Americans. Given the crisis of the pandemic, perhaps it would be laudable for Asians like me to confess their “Asian privilege” on social media because otherwise, as the Twitter hashtag goes, #SilenceisViolence.

Overall, I can think of several privileges I have benefited from that are arguably more significant than “white privilege.” Roughly speaking my family has more wealth than many in my social circle, including my friend who texted me to atone for his white privilege. This would be a form of class privilege.

By 1990, second-generation Cuban Americans were twice as likely to earn $50,000 a year than non-Hispanic whites in the United States.

I was also afforded the privilege of taking a full one-year break from education to pursue my passion for creative writing and social commentary. Had I been in a different economic circumstance, I would’ve been forced to immediately attend college or spend a substantial portion of my time working in my gap year. Comparatively, my friend who texted me went to university right away and tenaciously worked part-time on the weekends to afford his tuition. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for me to confess economic privilege to him. I was also afforded the privilege of my parents strongly encouraging me to read books and learn new vocabulary words at a very young age, which has undoubtedly aided me in my freelance journalism career. This kind of “literacy privilege” has, in part, given me the tremendous opportunity to write essays for top publications like The Globe and Mail and The Grammy Awards, despite being just 19 years of age.
Writing this essay, I also have the immense privilege of being a person of color. I receive plentiful backlash for defending the positions I hold, but had I been a white person, I would have easily been demonized as “alt-right” or even a “white supremacist,” despite having average libertarian or classical liberal views on politics.

Fundamentally, privileges of all kinds exist: able-bodiedness, wealth, education, moral values, facial symmetry, tallness (or in other contexts, shortness), health, stamina, safety, economic mobility, and importantly, living in a free, diverse society. Rather than “whiteness,” an exponentially more predictive privilege in life is growing up with two parents.

This is why 41 percent of children born to single mothers grow up in poverty whereas only 8 percent of children living in married-couple families are impoverished. In a racial context, the poverty rate among two-parent black families is only 7.5 percent, compared to 11 percent among whites as a whole and 22 percent among whites in single-parent homes. In fact, since 1994 the poverty rate among married black Americans has been consistently lower than the white poverty rate. Furthermore, an illustrative study published in the Journal of Marriage and Family found that when controlling for family structure, the black-white poverty gap is reduced by over 70 percent.
Privileges of all kinds exist: able-bodiedness, wealth, education, facial symmetry, health, stamina, safety, economic mobility, and importantly, living in a free, diverse society. 

When surveying the tremendous complexity of racial disparities, it’s simply wrong to presuppose all whites are “privileged,” let alone racist. Using the despicable actions of a few to judge an entire group of people is never sound reasoning. Just because some white people (who were kids) weaponized their whiteness and harassed me for the color of my skin, doesn’t mean I view all white people as racist or privileged.
None of the statistics in this piece discount racial prejudice, unequal opportunities or the privilege of not experiencing racism. They simply point to the glaring fallacies of the all-consuming white-privilege narrative which has degraded our national discourse into identity politics and racial tribalism. White people are now one-dimensionally seen as an undifferentiated mass of privilege and wealth whereas minorities are seen as powerless victims oppressed by a society ingrained with white supremacy and racial bigotry.

Ultimately, I don’t want to be treated as “Rav, the brown-skinned boy” or “Rav, the underprivileged minority.” I want to be treated as an individual with a unique set of circumstances and characteristics. To cohere as a multiethnic, pluralistic society this standard must be applied to all colors and ethnicities. But until we collectively repudiate race-based stereotyping and fallacious, inflammatory generalizations, we shift the focus away from real inequity and discrimination — and never truly make progress.

 7/11/20

 https://nypost.com/2020/07/11/the-fallacy-of-white-privilege-and-how-its-corroding-society/

I think this piece is compelling enough that I wanted to post the whole thing and get your thoughts. I hope you don't mind. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think that is right.   We see evolution with many of those perspectives a lot lately, and will continue to see evolution.  New ways of thinking and new corporate cultures are emerging and proving to be profitable that people would have gasped at 30 years ago.  We are more malleable today in terms of culture than we ever have been.  Productivity and creativity matter more than a black suit and tie.  Napping on the job is often encouraged now to boost productivity, etc. 

My brother-in-law works for google, and they have this down. Dedicated nap rooms, not to mention the movie theaters, game rooms, and all the free food.

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8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think this piece is compelling enough that I wanted to post the whole thing and get your thoughts. I hope you don't mind. 

It's my thread, and I'm quite fine with you having posted this.

Thanks,

-Smac

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Also should be noted from the study;

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The study also helps debunk the social conservative theory that lower marriage rates and higher levels of single parenthood among black Americans are largely responsible for the black-white income gap.

The authors measure the income of both black and white Americans conditional on their family structure and find that a huge gap in income persists, even if you’re looking at only children of single parents or of two-parent households.

Put another way: Even black children raised by two parents experience a massive gap in earnings relative to whites:

 

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have been racially targeted for being white and holding contrarian but intellectually defensible positions such as “we need to have generous, but reasonable limits on our immigration system” or even “I don’t think racial minorities are systematically oppressed in Western society today.”

How are they being targeted for their race if it is holding the ideas that is found offensive?  Are POC that hold those ideas less likely to be targeted?  Serious question. My limited experience is it is equal opportunity on that idea. 

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I can’t get your quote up top. 
 

I didn’t find the lack of an answer objectionable, just interesting. It makes me wonder, I will be bluntly honest, just how well informed your conclusion is as I imagine that a few ideas would occur when one understands the details...such as the issue with disparate teacher salaries suggests funding to equalize salaries or making up for the difference in other ways, perhaps allowing teachers access to social programs they wouldn’t necessarily qualify for otherwise.  This would likely encourage and support quality teachers for minority areas. 

Quality of the environment is also essential for learning. 
Spending enough money so schools are safe and comfortable is rather obvious, imo  

https://psmag.com/education/city-schools-are-falling-apart

48 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  I'm not particularly interested in (or, in the moment, capable of) formulating an informed and meaningful response to your inquiry.  And I'm not particularly interested in throwing out an uninformed, knee-jerk response.  So I didn't answer the question.  I'm not sure why that is objectionable.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Which Honor Code principles do that, and how long have they been around?

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26 [emphasis added]

Brigham Young University and other Church Educational System institutions exist to provide an education in an atmosphere consistent with the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That atmosphere is created and preserved by a community of faculty, administration, staff, and students who voluntarily commit to conduct their lives in accordance with the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who strive to maintain the highest standards in their personal conduct regarding honor, integrity, morality, and consideration of others. By accepting appointment, continuing in employment, being admitted, or continuing class enrollment, each member of the BYU community personally commits to observe these Honor Code standards approved by the Board of Trustees “at all times and in all things, and in all places” (Mosiah 18:9):

  • Be honest.
  • Live a chaste and virtuous life, including abstaining from any sexual relations outside a marriage between a man and a woman.
  • Respect others, including the avoidance of profane and vulgar language.
  • Obey the law and follow campus policies.
  • Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, vaping, and substance abuse.
  • Participate regularly in Church services (required only of Church members).
  • Observe Brigham Young University’s Dress and Grooming Standards.
  • Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code.

 

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Furthermore, how can we be sure that the message is clear?

Do you have any evidence to suggest that students attending BYU think it's okay to be racist?

 

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Specifically, we have every reason to assume that some students are getting mixed messages because of teachings taught at BYU to their parents and other students not that many years ago. BYU was teaching blatantly racist ideas until 2012 atleast.

If you say so. That wasn't my experience though. 

I attended BYU in the late 90's - early 00's (back when we had a good football team), and I was never taught any 'racist ideas.' YMMV.

 

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28 minutes ago, Calm said:

How are they being targeted for their race if it is holding the ideas that is found offensive?  Are POC that hold those ideas less likely to be targeted?  Serious question. My limited experience is it is equal opportunity on that idea. 

That's a good question.  It doesn't specify, but maybe they were called "racist" for holding those positions and being white, whereas a black person might be targeted for their positions, but wouldn't likely be called "racist". 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Also should be noted from the study;

"Put another way: Even black children raised by two parents experience a massive gap in earnings relative to whites: "

I think it is important to note disparities, but can skin color alone adequately explain why they exist?  When we divide people of color into sub-cultural categories for example, we see significant income and educational disparities between different black groups even.  How does skin color account for that?  We see the same thing when we divide white people into sub-categories too.  When black sub-groups demonstrably earn more than many white sub-groups, I think this suggests that there is more at play, and that these disparities are more complex than skin color.  When we blame everything on white-privilege, I think we are really limiting our ability to see the big picture and address other visceral issues. 

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

There is evidence in one of the links I posted that people are more willing to help others out of poverty if they are seen as similar rather than different. Thus LBJ chose a white family in poverty to be the ‘poster boy’ of his War on Poverty’ program. And that may be why welfare cuts were passed when Reagan used the “Welfare Queen” as his ‘posterboy’ example. 
 

I will have to dig it up, but inter generational poverty is more prevalent among blacks than whites. Whites at the same poverty level are more likely to have children that escape poverty. If we want to get rid of inter generational poverty, we will need to address the varied causes of it. If the difference between the upward mobility of whites and blacks in poverty is significantly attributed to systemic racism, then we will need to examine how to take that apart if we intend to be effective for all in poverty. 
 

Using Vox as the actual study is 106 pages. link to the study in the article 
 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/21/17139300/economic-mobility-study-race-black-white-women-men-incarceration-income-chetty-hendren-jones-porter

We don’t usually think about downward mobility when fighting poverty. It would be interesting to see if the rates indicated here have an effect on the higher income Pogi quoted families’ second generation, or if it mainly relates to African American families that have been in the states for many generations.

The whole article is quite interesting and demonstrates there is still much to learn about the dynamics.

I agree, there is much to learn about the dynamics. One of the things we have to do is come to a firm definition of systemic racism and what constitutes it. It seems somewhat in flux right now and that makes causal attribution difficult. It muddies the discourse up a bit as well. 

I obviously haven't had time to check out the whole study yet, I'll get to it. My major concern right now is that our current national discourse hinges entirely on racial identity, and this is unhealthy for a republic. A pluralistic society, by necessity, has to organize along non-racial lines, or else you get devastating Balkanization. Racializing every issue, assigning a racial gravitas to even the most minute decisions and actions, gives a devastatingly wide selection of issues an existentially eschatological significance. The center can't hold under such conditions. We need to think in a new way if we don't want an endlessly turning gyre of racial conflict to become the defining characteristic of American democracy. 

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

I think it is important to note disparities, but can skin color alone adequately explain why they exist?  When we divide people of color into sub-cultural categories for example, we see significant income and educational disparities between different black groups even.  How does skin color account for that?  We see the same thing when we divide white people into sub-categories too.  When black sub-groups demonstrably earn more than many white sub-groups, I think this suggests that there is more at play, and that these disparities are more complex than skin color.  When we blame everything on white-privilege, I think we are really limiting our ability to see the big picture and address other visceral issues. 

I think a lot of times skin color is used for shorthand for cultural issues, such as when discussing home and extended environments.  And that probably does further break down into ethnicities.

Other times when it is assumptions made about you because of your skin color, it is skin color.  Obvious, of course, but just putting it there as part of the discussion.

And then there are likely tons of times when it’s both and more when other stuff is thrown in (accents, one’s school, clothing, hairstyle, last two which may be cultural or not),

I think there is likely a huge difference if part of the discussion of your extended family heritage is slavery in a land you are told you are a foreigner in by many no matter that your family may have been longer in the colonies than theirs or even as I read recently from one woman the source of all her whiteness was rape***.  Immigrants who don’t have that family history will lack that variable even if they have a different tale of enduring hardship, perhaps also for generations.

I know for many, many Saints the heritage of their ancestors is a big thing in creating their identity. For me, it is the idea my ancestors were there at the beginning.  One used to sit on his front porch to listen to sermons from Joseph when he would come out to the crowds in front of his house. I think of Joseph as a friend and judge what he says as such in part because of this, which makes it easier for me to deal with contradictions and uncertainties, which probably means I have a stronger faith than I otherwise would have had without that history.  I have a very mixed view of polygamy based on the journals of several ancestors, men and women. 
 

It takes very little for me to imagine that it could be much more impactful to have the heritage of kidnapping, murder, slavery, and rape; how difficult it might be to step away from it, especially when reminded by the very color one’s skin. How long will Saints continue to talk about how the persecutions of the Early Saints affect us?  How long will we use what happened to them to inform our decisions now (pushing for laws for religious liberties, for example, so it won’t happen again).  Probably not as long as those with a harsher past confront theirs. 

***https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/opinion/confederate-monuments-racism.amp.html

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, Calm said:

I can’t get your quote up top. 

I didn’t find the lack of an answer objectionable, just interesting. It makes me wonder, I will be bluntly honest, just how well informed your conclusion is as I imagine that a few ideas would occur when one understands the details...such as the issue with disparate teacher salaries suggests funding to equalize salaries or making up for the difference in other ways, perhaps allowing teachers access to social programs they wouldn’t necessarily qualify for otherwise.  This would likely encourage and support quality teachers for minority areas. 

Quality of the environment is also essential for learning. 
Spending enough money so schools are safe and comfortable is rather obvious, imo  

https://psmag.com/education/city-schools-are-falling-apart

I am certainly open to learning more about education.  I tend to be skeptical of efforts to draw a direct causal connection between poor education and racism.  I think the situation is quite a bit more complex than that.

Always open to new data and ideas, though.

Thanks,

-Smac

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5 hours ago, pogi said:

When we blame everything on white-privilege,

A basic definition of white privilege:  “white privilege does not mean your life will be easy, it just means your whiteness will not make it harder.”

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

A basic definition of white privilege:  “white privilege does not mean your life will be easy, it just means your whiteness will not make it harder.”

Any thoughts on "Asian privilege?"  Is that a thing?

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20 hours ago, smac97 said:

Any thoughts on "Asian privilege?"  Is that a thing?

Added:  Danzo has reminded me I need to be cautious and not make broad generalizations, so here are my qualifications to my comments....

I have have significant personal experiences with probably a dozen or so Asian immigrant families, almost all in Canada.  Most would have immigrated based on a law where they came over with a hefty chunk of money showing they were capable of self support.  I don’t believe any were refugees, though the one student from Syria might have been, but I didn’t know her well or her family.  Other info is first off of Asian TV which adores tropes and formulized story telling...and then there is the censorship issues, very significant for China at least.  After that, I read a lot of foreign news media and blogs by immigrants to the US or Americans in Asia...in other words,  othing scientific and the same potential issues of reading internet material about the States.  Also all of my info is about the dominant cultures, I haven’t really got into any minority ethnic groups except to see some mocked as hicks because of dialects.  So I am very weak on distinctions between groups within a country.

——

I believe much of the success benefit for Asian Americans comes from the fact that they have a very, very strong work ethic (I think it is kind of insane if someone raised in American culture were to live it) focused on improving the life of the next generation even more than their own, while limiting the next generation to fewer numbers to up the benefit. When we were in Canada, I was tutoring grade threes that had been sent over to Canada to live with friends for a year or more to have a chance to develop excellent English so as to put them ahead in their careers twenty years later. 
 

Which points to the main thing I believe contributes to their success...it is a group effort. They live together in extended families of multi generations even when they can afford separate housing; work in family businesses so the money for salaries stay in the family and can be reinvested in the company; grandparents both live with one or more of their children’s families, honored and they also care for children so both parents, aunts, and uncles can have full time jobs (which from what I saw was 7 days a week at least for the men), family provides loans for each other, not just parents, but siblings.  
 

And friends work out mutually beneficial arrangements to get ahead like taking in your kids when you want special schooling.  

Kids attended regular school during the week, went to their parents’ native language schools on one day of the weekend and took extracurricular lessons on the other day, most often a musical instrument where we were. 
 

There is a very popular TV show that films kids on there first trip to the store. Some are three year olds. It is popular supposedly because not only the cuteness factor, but the parents are reliving their own first times. Elementary age kids often travel on buses and subways on their own to get to school because both parents have already left for work.  There is little fear of kidnapping, which is either rare or not talked about much (haven’t yet found stats on that to be sure).

Businesses require long, long hours of work (and after work there are frequent company dinners with lots of alcohol for group morale as well a many businesses do company retreats).  This culture is celebrated in the media as expected, though there are plenty of shows about bad bosses to complain about. 
 

When life is completely focused on future success and status and there are resources and people to support them, it should hardly be surprising that Asian Americans may excel in a culture that values success achieved in one’s own as well as self sufficient nuclear families. 
 

However, Pogi is right to pay attention to ethnicities. The success story is not across the board for all of Asian descent, I don’t have which groups are at a disadvantage but they are generally the ones that come here as refugees rather than making an economic choice to immigrate. 

Edited by Calm
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Part 2 on Asian privilege...discrimination towards Asians often takes the stereotype of the above which more typically applies to first and second generation Asian Americans than to third or more and applies them to any Asian American. Thus they are assumed to be very good in school or hard workers who will put the business first.  
 

Otoh, Asian immigrants at times can tend to look down on whites as lazy and keep their kids from associating with them as they get older. This was very problematic in our high school in Canada where long time friends were split up by parents, kids were moved to other schools because they were only getting 94% instead of 95 or higher in their grades (yes, I had a kid telling me they were heartbroken they were going to have to leave band because their parents were insisting they get a 98% grade and didn’t want them hanging out with the whites who were slowing them down from the serious stuff).  And of course the Asian kids would repeat what their parents said. Canadians had their own problems with racism (the worse I ever heard about First Nations/Native Americans was from a Canadian), so the white kids often had something to say about the Asians...fights were not uncommon. 
 

Asian women are often see as either submissive or over the top aggressive. All the first generation Asian moms I knew were submissive at least in public with us, especially around their husbands, but I heard of some moms that were the opposite and the kids’ stories of them at home painted a more rounded picture which made me happier for them (One of our next door neighbours I learned later from the missionaries the wife was abused and then abandoned, she was investigating the Church). I didn’t know the first generation men very well, I don’t know if they were uncomfortable and therefore withdrawn or actually saw us as a waste of their time, but unlike the women, I got to admit I had a hard time with them. The kids were great, most very respectful to adults even if a few were brats to kids their own age.
 

My view is women are not seen as equals by the men, there is an attitude that is all through their media of bosses harassing the women and the women just taking it to keep their jobs or get promoted. There is this petting behaviour of women’s heads, but apparently it doesn’t translate to as patronizing as it would be in American culture. There is difficulty in Asia for moms who have stopped work to care for their kids and husbands as is often expected being able to get back into the work force.  
 

However, a woman who grew up in the States isn’t likely to have that set of above expectations or experiences and to be patronized as if she does by whites...
 

I have heard Asian Americans say they are assumed to be prejudiced against whites, standoffish, to think they are superior...not a vibe I get off of third generation though.  There were some third generation or more Asian heritage professors who were typical in their Americanisms or Canadianisms. We celebrated American Thanksgiving a number of years when we first moved up to Canada with an Asian American family, iirc the dad was third generation and mom second. Outside some nice family heirlooms and names of their two kids, I don’t remember anything striking me as Asian culture about them, but it was a long time ago and I was just learning about Asian culture outside of trips to Chinatown as a teen in San Fran, so I might have missed the more subtle stuff. 
 

There is probably a ton of other stuff I am not aware about in Asian American experience.  I can do some research if you want rather than just going off of memory. 

Edited by Calm
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14 hours ago, Calm said:

Or looking it at another way, time to get a level playing field by removing advantages for whites, and not because of the color of their skin but because of the advantages that have been given them. 

It would seem that the advantages can only be discerned by pigment in one's skin.

Racism to fight racism.

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8 hours ago, Calm said:

How are they being targeted for their race if it is holding the ideas that is found offensive?  Are POC that hold those ideas less likely to be targeted?  Serious question. My limited experience is it is equal opportunity on that idea. 

Its interesting that Cesar Chavez could be anti illegal immigrant, and he pretty much gets a pass. 

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