Rajah Manchou Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) Native South Americans were early inhabitants of Polynesia Polynesians steering by the stars met Native Americans long before Europeans arrived Study shows ancient contact between Polynesian and South American peoples Some Polynesians Carry Native American DNA, Study Finds Edited July 8, 2020 by Rajah Manchou 4 Link to comment
USU78 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 My grandfather, who missioned on Mau'i and the Big Island 1919-22, would be underwhelmed and unsurprised by this. https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-alma-testimony-word/hagoth-polynesians 2 Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 And Thor must be pretty happy that the signals were found on Fatu Hiva.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatu_Hiva_(book) Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 9, 2020 Author Share Posted July 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, USU78 said: My grandfather, who missioned on Mau'i and the Big Island 1919-22, would be underwhelmed and unsurprised by this. https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-alma-testimony-word/hagoth-polynesians It has been speculation among Mormons since the late 1830s, but this confirms it, so we no longer have to go round and round debating it. What's more important, is that this opens up the possibility of cultural contacts between the Old World and the New World, before Europeans. The Austronesians were all over the place, migrating between Madagascar, the Comoros Islands, Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, the East Indies, the Polynesian Islands, and now, South America. But it’s more likely that Polynesians traveled to the northern coast of South America, says Keolu Fox, a genome scientist at UC San Diego. Polynesian voyagers frequently traveled between islands and could have journeyed to South America and back, perhaps multiple times, Fox says. “In the process, these Polynesians bring back the sweet potato, and they also bring back a small fragment of Native American DNA” from relationships on the mainland. “The ocean is not a barrier” for Polynesians, he says. 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Native South Americans were early inhabitants of Polynesia Polynesians steering by the stars met Native Americans long before Europeans arrived Study shows ancient contact between Polynesian and South American peoples Some Polynesians Carry Native American DNA, Study Finds The fourth item is same as second. Was that a mistake? Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 9, 2020 Author Share Posted July 9, 2020 50 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The fourth item is same as second. Was that a mistake? Yes.Some Polynesians Carry Native American DNA, Study Find But you'll probably hit a pay wall. 1 Link to comment
rodheadlee Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 12 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Native South Americans were early inhabitants of Polynesia Polynesians steering by the stars met Native Americans long before Europeans arrived Study shows ancient contact between Polynesian and South American peoples Some Polynesians Carry Native American DNA, Study Finds It seems logical to me and that's the way the trade winds blow 24/7 365. 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 14 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Yes.Some Polynesians Carry Native American DNA, Study Find But you'll probably hit a pay wall. No, I got full access, and it is a very important article. Thanks. Link to comment
Popular Post Meadowchik Posted July 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2020 "“I think it’s really exciting that we, as data scientists and geneticists, are able to contribute in a meaningful way to our understanding of human history.”" Yay for data science! It is gratifying to see more ways that science is uncovering the history of peoples who get less attention. Hopefully it will continue and expand and contribute to our appreciation of the vast human cultures that have graced the planet 5 Link to comment
Boanerges Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I think it is a general belief, or at least was a general belief, that Polynesians are Lamanites. I served a mission is the early 1980s in Polynesia and it was certainly generally held then that they were. I used to believe it when I believed in Lamanites. I still believe in Native Americans and Polynesians though. Link to comment
katherine the great Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Very cool! I like the way they conducted this research. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 6 hours ago, Boanerges said: ...............................I still believe in Native Americans and Polynesians though. Does that mean you won't be going on the next Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour? 😎 Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Does that mean you won't be going on the next Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour? 😎 Haha. Interesting you say that because two weeks ago I finally had a long enough holiday to take a train down to the hill that Ralph Olsen identified as Hill Cumorah in the Malay Model. As the first person to officially complete the full Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour from south to north, I confirm it is well worth the effort, regardless of your opinions on Book of Mormon geography. Here's a pic of Maroni (Marong) Cave, not far from Hill Ramah (Maw). Marong/Maroni is a title given to warriors, including the warrior who founded the Rahma and Kommoriya city-states here during the Book of Mormon period. Edited July 11, 2020 by Rajah Manchou 4 Link to comment
Boanerges Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Does that mean you won't be going on the next Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour? 😎 I am likely to skip that and all other Book of Mormon geography events. I do have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and it does undoubtedly testify of Jesus Christ. Where or if any of it actually happened is immaterial to that testimony. 1 Link to comment
2BizE Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 So what do people think this means? Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 On 7/10/2020 at 9:06 PM, Rajah Manchou said: ............................. As the first person to officially complete the full Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour from south to north, I confirm it is well worth the effort, regardless of your opinions on Book of Mormon geography........................................ I was just watching a video which argues that the colossal heads and other sculptures of the Olmecs are clearly African in type. Have you even given any thought to them being Austronesian or Asian? Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 On 7/8/2020 at 5:41 PM, Rajah Manchou said: Native South Americans were early inhabitants of Polynesia Polynesians steering by the stars met Native Americans long before Europeans arrived Study shows ancient contact between Polynesian and South American peoples Some Polynesians Carry Native American DNA, Study Finds Interpreter carried a short notice on the Nature article, online at https://interpreterfoundation.org/new-study-finds-some-polynesians-carry-dna-of-ancient-native-americans/. Is that adequate notice? Could you please make a comment there, if you deem it necessary? Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I was just watching a video which argues that the colossal heads and other sculptures of the Olmecs are clearly African in type. Have you even given any thought to them being Austronesian or Asian? There's good reason to go back and reevaluate the arguments for these claims. The research of Betty Meggars comes to mind. It is curious that lost wax metallurgy, common in Asia, has a spontaneous origination in the same tribe (Sinu) that was found to admix with French Polynesia. Also some of the more recent DNA papers that try to make sense of the presence of Asian, Polynesian and Austronesian DNA in South America. The 100% Polynesian DNA in the extinct Botocudo of Brazil is certainly worth looking at again. Two ancient human genomes reveal Polynesian ancestry among the indigenous Botocudos of Brazil The authors give 3 equally improbable explanations, but now that we know there was Trans-Pacific contact, the most logical explanation for Polynesian DNA in Brazil is that Polynesians reached South America at least 800 years ago. 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said: ...................... It is curious that lost wax metallurgy, common in Asia, has a spontaneous origination in the same tribe (Sinu) that was found to admix with French Polynesia......................... Yes. Laurette Sejourne, Burning Water: Thought and Religion in Ancient Mexico (Grove Press, 1960), mentions cire perdue (lost wax technique). See also Stanley Long, “Cire Perdue Copper Casting in Pre-Columbian Mexico: An Experimental Approach,” American Antiquity, 30/2 (Oct 1964):189-192, online at DOI: 10.2307/278850https://www.jstor.org/stable/278850 , mentioning Sahagun's General History of the Things of New Spain, a Nahuatl text completed in 1555, containing an ethnographic description of cire perdue gold casting. Marc N. Levine, “Ceramic Molds for Mixtec Gold: a New Lost-Wax Casting Technique from Prehispanic Mexico,” Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory, 26/1 (May 2018): online at DOI: 10.1007/s10816-018-9377-z , and at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324898279_Ceramic_Molds_for_Mixtec_Gold_a_New_Lost-Wax_Casting_Technique_from_Prehispanic_Mexico , 1 Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Interpreter carried a short notice on the Nature article, online at https://interpreterfoundation.org/new-study-finds-some-polynesians-carry-dna-of-ancient-native-americans/. I've never had much interaction with comments on Interpreter. I've repeated everything below so many times that another post likely won't make much difference. But here goes: As you know, my opinion is that the Book of Mormon was intended to be an account of the former inhabitants of the American continent and the isles in the sea from which they sprang. When we consider what the author(s) of the Book of Mormon would have known about the people in the islands, there's significant similarity (verisimiltude as Benjamin McGuire puts it) with the Book of Mormon peoples. Important to consider that the author of the Book of Mormon wouldn't know what a Polynesian was, he would have known them as Malay. Polynesians were known as Malay until 1842. Before they were known as Malay, they were known as Kumr and Rahmans, from the islands of Kamara/Comoro and Rahman, two nations resembling the geography of Cumorah and Rahma in the Book of Mormon. Gordon Thomasson argues that the word Mormon itself, which is first presented in the Book of Mormon as the Land of Mormon - a wilderness infested by wild beasts - has the Arabic root RMN. Rahman (RMN) is a historical nation dating to 582 BC and founded be a warrior named Maroni. From the author's understanding this would have been the source population of the Polynesians in the isles of the sea who, as we now know, discovered America at least 300 years before Columbus. Edited July 16, 2020 by Rajah Manchou 1 Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) On 7/15/2020 at 3:39 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Have you even given any thought to them being Austronesian or Asian? I just stumbled on an interesting paper. The language of the Jabbali people of the Dhofar region in Oman (Khor Rori and Khor Kharfot) appears to have heavy Austronesian influences. Not only Austronesian, but Malay and Kumr (Khmer) influence specifically. This potentially means that elements of the language of the people of "Bountiful" are from the same family as the people who discovered America 300 years before Columbus. "In the recent decades only a few remarks about Modern South Arabian (MSA) lexis has appeared in the literature: for example, ogan (2015:546) describes MSA vocabulary as having a “peculiar aspect, at times so strikingly ‘non-Semitic’ that some sort of external influence (substratum or adstratum) might legitimately suggest itself as an explanatory model” ... The twofold aim of this chapter is, on the one hand, to describe the influence of Arabic on MSA lexis, and, on other hand, to propose Austronesian, and specifically, a pre-documentary phase of the Malagasy language (in its turn influenced by Malay and Javanese languages), which is part of the south-east Barito sub-group, as the source of some of the above-mentioned hitherto unidentifiable MSA lexical items, on the basis of formal and semantic correspondences, as well as of the historical and textual evidence of an Austronesian presence in the geographical area where MSA languages are spoken at present. The chapter is divided into two main sub-sections: the first one is devoted to the Arabic lexical interference in MSA, while the second one illustrates the hypothesis of an Austronesian influence." A sketch of the Kuria Muria language variety and other aspects of Modern South Arabian Edited July 17, 2020 by Rajah Manchou 2 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: I just stumbled on an interesting paper. The language of the Jabbali people of the Dhofar region in Oman (Khor Rori and Khor Kharfot) appears to have heavy Austronesian influences. Not only Austronesian, but Malay and Kumr (Khmer) influence specifically. This potentially means that elements of the language of the people of "Bountiful" are from the same family as the people who discovered America 300 years before Columbus. ........................................ That reminds me of the similarity to Book of Mormon Irreantum of some local terms for “sea”-- ráwrem in Meḥri, rémnem in Jibbali, and renhĕm in Socotri.[1] Moreover, in the term Khor Kharfot “Kharfot Inlet” (at the mouth of Wadi Sayq in Oman), Kherfut is a Meḥri term meaning something like "abundance" (Warren Aston).[2] [1] P. Bennett, Comparative Semitic Linguistics, 138:68. [2] Warren P. Aston, “Across Arabia with Lehi and Sariah: ‘Truth Shall Spring out of the Earth’,” JBMS 15/2 (2006):8–25, 110, online at https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/ ; Warren P. Aston and Michaela Aston, In the Footsteps of Lehi: New Evidence for Lehi's Journey across Arabia to Bountiful (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 1994); Warren P. Aston, “Arabia’s Hidden Valley: A Unique Habitat in Dhofar Captures Arabia’s Past,” Wildlife Middle East News (WME), 6/4 (March 2013):2-4, online at http://www.wmenews.com/newsletters/1366812925wmenews _V6_I4_eng.pdf . Edited July 17, 2020 by Robert F. Smith 1 Link to comment
Rajah Manchou Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: That reminds me of the similarity to Book of Mormon Irreantum of some local terms for “sea”-- ráwrem in Meḥri, rémnem in Jibbali, and renhĕm in Socotri. "Body of Water" (ráwrem, rémnem, renhĕm) is presented in the paper as having the Proto-Malayo-Polynesian root *danum with potential shift to *ranum, as it did in the Malagasy word for water ranu. 2 Link to comment
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