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'Better That One Man Should Perish Than That a Nation Should Dwindle and Perish in Unbelief'


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Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Yet these tribes did just that.  They ended up dwindling in unbelief.  And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective.

Thoughts on reconciling this?  

Edited by The Unclean Deacon
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23 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Yet these tribes did just that.  They ended up dwindling in unbelief.  And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective.

Thoughts on reconciling this?  

A lot of good information came from the brass plates that is helping our own current nation (or at least the Church in these latter-days) from dwindling in unbelief.

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36 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Yet these tribes did just that.  They ended up dwindling in unbelief.  And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective.

Thoughts on reconciling this?  

One could argue that we wouldn’t have the BoM today without the brass plates.  The dwindling in unbelief could have happened much sooner.  It is evident in the BoM that these scriptures were widely distributed and studied and highly influential.

Edited by pogi
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4 hours ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Yet these tribes did just that.  They ended up dwindling in unbelief.  And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective.

Thoughts on reconciling this?  

The entire Lehite people did not "dwindle and perish in unbelief."  Reading the Book of Mormon will show countless examples of people throughout their history who exercised faith in Christ.  

Edited by ksfisher
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1 hour ago, pogi said:

One could argue that we wouldn’t have the BoM today without the brass plates.  The dwindling in unbelief could have happened much sooner.  It is evident in the BoM that these scriptures were widely distributed and studied and highly influential.

which 99.9% of earthling disregard anyway and hence dwindle in unbelief

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7 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

which 99.9% of earthling disregard anyway and hence dwindle in unbelief

That would be a problem if it wasn't for the restoration and the plan of salvation, which is outlined in the Book of Mormon. 

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47 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

The murder of Laban has always bothered me.

Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates.

We do have the BoM.

According to Nephi, God said he couldn't spare his life.    

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55 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

The murder of Laban has always bothered me.

It wasn't murder.  Have you read Jack Welch's treatment of this issue?

Quote

Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates.

We do have the BoM.

If Nephi had, during the evening, been able to secure the plates and flee Jerusalem,  How much of a Head Start would he have had before Laban had sent his soldiers in pursuit the next day? After all, Nephi and his brothers had just been there asking for the plates. Then the plates go missing. Laban did not need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what had happened.  

 Also, how would defy have been able to get the plates without Laban's clothing and sword? 

 Also, even assuming Nephi had been able to get Zoram to give him the plates, then he would have needed to leave Zoram.  The next morning, when Laban wakes up and discovers what Zoram did, what happens to Zoram?

Mostly, though, he was commanded to kill Laban.

It's a moral toughie, to be sure.

Edited by smac97
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1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said:

The murder of Laban has always bothered me.

Well it certainly wasn't premeditated murder. Nephi didn't plan to kill Laban. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing.
I think of it more as self-defense, since Laban had previously tried to kill Nephi's brothers and would certainly have killed all of them as soon as he was sober.

 

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

It wasn't murder.  Have you read Jack Welch's treatment of this issue?

If Nephi had, during the evening, been able to secure the plates and flee Jerusalem,  How much of a Head Start would he have had before Laban had sent his soldiers in pursuit the next day? After all, Nephi and his brothers had just been there asking for the plates. Then the plates go missing. Laban did not need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what had happened.  

 Also, how would defy have been able to get the plates without Laban's clothing and sword? 

 Also, even assuming Nephi had been able to get Zoram to give him the plates, then he would have needed to leave Zoram.  The next morning, when Laban wakes up and discovers what Zoram did, what happens to Zoram?

Mostly, though, he was commanded to kill Laban.

It's a moral toughie, to be sure.

That's a great defense but not good enough.

Nephi slew a drunken, defenseless man.

 

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1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Well it certainly wasn't premeditated murder. Nephi didn't plan to kill Laban. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing.
I think of it more as self-defense, since Laban had previously tried to kill Nephi's brothers and would certainly have killed all of them as soon as he was sober.

 

So you see your enemy on the floor, drunken without sense, so you draw your weapon and kill your enemy.

That's not murder?

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1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said:

The murder of Laban has always bothered me.

Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates.

We do have the BoM.

Welch, John W. (Fall 1992), "Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies Vol. 1, Iss. 1, Pp. 119-141, Provo UT: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Brigham Young University.

Larsen, Val (Winter 2007), "Killing Laban: The Birth of Sovereignty in the Nephite Constitutional Order," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 16, Iss. 1, Pp. 26-41, 84-85, Provo UT: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Brigham Young University.

I'm trying to add links, but I get a "403 Forbidden [!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]" Error!

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26 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

That's a great defense but not good enough.

Nephi slew a drunken, defenseless man.

 

 

25 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

So you see your enemy on the floor, drunken without sense, so you draw your weapon and kill your enemy.

That's not murder?

 

24 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

Right out of the Daybill [sic] and LeBaron playbook: "God told me."

Yeah.  Okay.  If you're determined to apply 21st-century North American legal standards to an event that purportedly occurred in Jerusalem in 600 BCE, there will be no convincing you.  Thanks for clearing that up for us.  Moving on!

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11 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

How do you feel about the flood?

Fake [ancient] news, of course! :rolleyes:

;):D

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35 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

That's a great defense but not good enough.

Nephi slew a drunken, defenseless man.

 

So he should have waited until the man woke up sober and drew his sword?  Even though that would have destroyed Nephi’s ability to get away even if successful?  And likely condemned his family to death?  (Laban would likely have sent out his men to hunt down the brothers to prevent any retaliation, without their sons, Lehi and Sariah would not have survived even if Laban ignored them).

It reminds of Jael and her hammer...though she personally lulled Sisera to sleep rather than finding him that way. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jael

People who have little to no power have to resort to drastic measures at times when lives are threatened, imo. Not a decision I would want to make even with the Spirit telling me what to do 

Edited by Calm
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32 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

Right out of the Daybill and LeBaron playbook: "God told me."

Not really. Nephi had experience with Laban attempting to murder his family members after stealing all their wealth. 

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

It wasn't murder.  Have you read Jack Welch's treatment of this issue?

57 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Well it certainly wasn't premeditated murder. Nephi didn't plan to kill Laban. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing.
I think of it more as self-defense, since Laban had previously tried to kill Nephi's brothers and would certainly have killed all of them as soon as he was sober.

I agree that it wasn't premeditated, but it was definitely murder.  I don't think that he could have convinced anybody that it wasn't premeditated though.  

I think that any judge or jury today would convict him of murder (I am assuming we are judging this by our standards today) if he was caught and arrested.  We can't argue self-defense against a potential future event - "he might hunt me down and kill me for stealing his property", simply wouldn't fly.  "He tried to kill my brothers therefore I had to kill him in self-defense" wouldn't fly either.  That would be seen more as retribution than self defense.  "God made me do it", wouldn't fly. 

They kept going back for property that didn't belong to them, and which was not going to be surrendered or sold to them, so they had to kill the guy before they could steal his property.  "Kill" is putting it nicely.  Not only did he kill him, he mutilated and dismembered his body by decapitation, then fraudulently impersonated the dead man he just decapitated in order to steal his property.    Ya, Nephi couldn't have talked his way out of that one.  Not even OJ's lawyers could have won this one.  My only question is, how did Nephi cut off Laban's head, then take off his clothes and put them on himself, without having Laban's clothes soaked and dripping with blood?  

It was murder.  It was justified by God, but it was murder.  Just like the genocides of the Old Testament were justified by God, but it was still genocide.

OR, it was a parable.

 

 

 

Edited by pogi
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