The Unclean Deacon Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." Yet these tribes did just that. They ended up dwindling in unbelief. And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective. Thoughts on reconciling this? Edited July 8, 2020 by The Unclean Deacon Link to comment
JAHS Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said: Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." Yet these tribes did just that. They ended up dwindling in unbelief. And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective. Thoughts on reconciling this? A lot of good information came from the brass plates that is helping our own current nation (or at least the Church in these latter-days) from dwindling in unbelief. 1 Link to comment
The Unclean Deacon Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, JAHS said: A lot of good information came from the brass plates that is helping our own current nation (or at least the Church in these latter-days) from dwindling in unbelief. which is? Link to comment
pogi Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said: Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." Yet these tribes did just that. They ended up dwindling in unbelief. And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective. Thoughts on reconciling this? One could argue that we wouldn’t have the BoM today without the brass plates. The dwindling in unbelief could have happened much sooner. It is evident in the BoM that these scriptures were widely distributed and studied and highly influential. Edited July 8, 2020 by pogi 1 Link to comment
Popular Post CV75 Posted July 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2020 42 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said: Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." Yet these tribes did just that. They ended up dwindling in unbelief. And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective. Thoughts on reconciling this? The reconciliation is timing. The nation lasted long enough before dwindling (1,000 years!) to produce what became the Book of Mormon. 6 Link to comment
JAHS Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said: which is? We have the teachings of the prophet Zenos and a second witness to the writings of Isaiah. 1 Link to comment
ksfisher Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Unclean Deacon said: Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." Yet these tribes did just that. They ended up dwindling in unbelief. And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective. Thoughts on reconciling this? The entire Lehite people did not "dwindle and perish in unbelief." Reading the Book of Mormon will show countless examples of people throughout their history who exercised faith in Christ. Edited July 8, 2020 by ksfisher 4 Link to comment
Popular Post smac97 Posted July 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Unclean Deacon said: Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." Yet these tribes did just that. They ended up dwindling in unbelief. And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective. Thoughts on reconciling this? A few thoughts: 1. Allegorical characterizations of the Church/Saints as "salt" (Matt. 5:13) and "leaven" (Matt. 13:33) come to mind. 2. Also, consider 1 Nephi 14:12: "And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw." The numerical size of the Church has not, I think, ever been intended to be huge. The "fill{ing} the whole earth" imagery in Daniel 2:35 is, I think, a reference to the Millennium. 3. Also, consider D&C 134, particularly in relation to the teachings of the Church about missionary work in the hereafter, temple work, and so on. Conversion can take a long time. And the numerical bulk of the missionary work done for the children of God will be in the Spirit World. What we do here is important, but not the end-all of the Lord's work. 4. I'm not sure what you mean by "99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief." I just don't see that. Are you equating "unbelief" with "not having read the Book of Mormon?" 5. How many millions of copies of the Book of Mormon have been printed? How many hundreds of thousands of missionaries have spend how many millions of hours preaching the gospel to the world? The Book of Mormon, and its adherents, have had an influence in the world, with much more to come. 6. Is the "dwindling" quote a reference to the Nephites? The people of the latter days? Both? How many people amongst the nephites were blessed because they had the benefit of the brass plates? Thanks, -Smac Edited July 8, 2020 by smac97 6 Link to comment
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 The murder of Laban has always bothered me. Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates. We do have the BoM. Link to comment
The Unclean Deacon Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: One could argue that we wouldn’t have the BoM today without the brass plates. The dwindling in unbelief could have happened much sooner. It is evident in the BoM that these scriptures were widely distributed and studied and highly influential. which 99.9% of earthling disregard anyway and hence dwindle in unbelief Link to comment
pogi Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said: which 99.9% of earthling disregard anyway and hence dwindle in unbelief That would be a problem if it wasn't for the restoration and the plan of salvation, which is outlined in the Book of Mormon. 2 Link to comment
bluebell Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 47 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: The murder of Laban has always bothered me. Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates. We do have the BoM. According to Nephi, God said he couldn't spare his life. Link to comment
smac97 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 55 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: The murder of Laban has always bothered me. It wasn't murder. Have you read Jack Welch's treatment of this issue? Quote Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates. We do have the BoM. If Nephi had, during the evening, been able to secure the plates and flee Jerusalem, How much of a Head Start would he have had before Laban had sent his soldiers in pursuit the next day? After all, Nephi and his brothers had just been there asking for the plates. Then the plates go missing. Laban did not need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what had happened. Also, how would defy have been able to get the plates without Laban's clothing and sword? Also, even assuming Nephi had been able to get Zoram to give him the plates, then he would have needed to leave Zoram. The next morning, when Laban wakes up and discovers what Zoram did, what happens to Zoram? Mostly, though, he was commanded to kill Laban. It's a moral toughie, to be sure. Edited July 8, 2020 by smac97 2 Link to comment
JAHS Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said: The murder of Laban has always bothered me. Well it certainly wasn't premeditated murder. Nephi didn't plan to kill Laban. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing. I think of it more as self-defense, since Laban had previously tried to kill Nephi's brothers and would certainly have killed all of them as soon as he was sober. 2 Link to comment
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, smac97 said: It wasn't murder. Have you read Jack Welch's treatment of this issue? If Nephi had, during the evening, been able to secure the plates and flee Jerusalem, How much of a Head Start would he have had before Laban had sent his soldiers in pursuit the next day? After all, Nephi and his brothers had just been there asking for the plates. Then the plates go missing. Laban did not need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what had happened. Also, how would defy have been able to get the plates without Laban's clothing and sword? Also, even assuming Nephi had been able to get Zoram to give him the plates, then he would have needed to leave Zoram. The next morning, when Laban wakes up and discovers what Zoram did, what happens to Zoram? Mostly, though, he was commanded to kill Laban. It's a moral toughie, to be sure. That's a great defense but not good enough. Nephi slew a drunken, defenseless man. 1 Link to comment
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Well it certainly wasn't premeditated murder. Nephi didn't plan to kill Laban. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing. I think of it more as self-defense, since Laban had previously tried to kill Nephi's brothers and would certainly have killed all of them as soon as he was sober. So you see your enemy on the floor, drunken without sense, so you draw your weapon and kill your enemy. That's not murder? 1 Link to comment
smac97 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: That's a great defense but not good enough. Nephi slew a drunken, defenseless man. Have you read Jack Welch's stuff? Link to comment
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Have you read the above? I am not impressed with Jack Welch. 1 Link to comment
let’s roll Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said: The murder of Laban has always bothered me. Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates. We do have the BoM. How do you feel about the flood? Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said: The murder of Laban has always bothered me. Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates. We do have the BoM. Welch, John W. (Fall 1992), "Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies Vol. 1, Iss. 1, Pp. 119-141, Provo UT: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Brigham Young University. Larsen, Val (Winter 2007), "Killing Laban: The Birth of Sovereignty in the Nephite Constitutional Order," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 16, Iss. 1, Pp. 26-41, 84-85, Provo UT: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Brigham Young University. I'm trying to add links, but I get a "403 Forbidden [!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]" Error! Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 26 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: That's a great defense but not good enough. Nephi slew a drunken, defenseless man. 25 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: So you see your enemy on the floor, drunken without sense, so you draw your weapon and kill your enemy. That's not murder? 24 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: Right out of the Daybill [sic] and LeBaron playbook: "God told me." Yeah. Okay. If you're determined to apply 21st-century North American legal standards to an event that purportedly occurred in Jerusalem in 600 BCE, there will be no convincing you. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Moving on! 3 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 11 minutes ago, let’s roll said: How do you feel about the flood? Fake [ancient] news, of course! 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: That's a great defense but not good enough. Nephi slew a drunken, defenseless man. So he should have waited until the man woke up sober and drew his sword? Even though that would have destroyed Nephi’s ability to get away even if successful? And likely condemned his family to death? (Laban would likely have sent out his men to hunt down the brothers to prevent any retaliation, without their sons, Lehi and Sariah would not have survived even if Laban ignored them). It reminds of Jael and her hammer...though she personally lulled Sisera to sleep rather than finding him that way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jael People who have little to no power have to resort to drastic measures at times when lives are threatened, imo. Not a decision I would want to make even with the Spirit telling me what to do Edited July 8, 2020 by Calm Link to comment
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 32 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: Right out of the Daybill and LeBaron playbook: "God told me." Not really. Nephi had experience with Laban attempting to murder his family members after stealing all their wealth. Link to comment
pogi Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: It wasn't murder. Have you read Jack Welch's treatment of this issue? 57 minutes ago, JAHS said: Well it certainly wasn't premeditated murder. Nephi didn't plan to kill Laban. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing. I think of it more as self-defense, since Laban had previously tried to kill Nephi's brothers and would certainly have killed all of them as soon as he was sober. I agree that it wasn't premeditated, but it was definitely murder. I don't think that he could have convinced anybody that it wasn't premeditated though. I think that any judge or jury today would convict him of murder (I am assuming we are judging this by our standards today) if he was caught and arrested. We can't argue self-defense against a potential future event - "he might hunt me down and kill me for stealing his property", simply wouldn't fly. "He tried to kill my brothers therefore I had to kill him in self-defense" wouldn't fly either. That would be seen more as retribution than self defense. "God made me do it", wouldn't fly. They kept going back for property that didn't belong to them, and which was not going to be surrendered or sold to them, so they had to kill the guy before they could steal his property. "Kill" is putting it nicely. Not only did he kill him, he mutilated and dismembered his body by decapitation, then fraudulently impersonated the dead man he just decapitated in order to steal his property. Ya, Nephi couldn't have talked his way out of that one. Not even OJ's lawyers could have won this one. My only question is, how did Nephi cut off Laban's head, then take off his clothes and put them on himself, without having Laban's clothes soaked and dripping with blood? It was murder. It was justified by God, but it was murder. Just like the genocides of the Old Testament were justified by God, but it was still genocide. OR, it was a parable. Edited July 8, 2020 by pogi 1 Link to comment
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