Latter-day Saint Prophet as Prophet Over All Christianity .

[Navidad]

15 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Every person I know believers that their leaders are most correct and the best represnetivey of Christ throughout the world -- hence why they acknowledge them as a leader.  LDS Christians are the same in that regard.

Thanks for the reply. Just one quick clarification about this - until I started attending an LDS ward three or so years ago and attending LDS history conferences I had never heard, nor did I teach or preach that any church to which I belonged was the most correct or the best representative of Christ throughout the world. Never. In fact I never participated in a denomination or group where anyone or any small group of leaders was authorized to speak for the group as a whole. Technically you don't "know" me, but I can assure you that very few in the evangelical community world-wide would insist that their group or leaders are the most correct and best representatives of Christ. That is why there are big groups like the NAE - the National Association of Evangelicals where folks from a hundred different groups come together to learn, teach, discuss, and pray together.

 

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Navidad said:

In every case the priesthood keys are to govern, administer ordinances, provide an organization, and direct the Church. It is clear the Church refers to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I see nothing therein about anything that isn't related specifically to "the Church." All of the context refers to the LDS Church. So how are the LDS priesthood keys the key to the question "Is the LDS president thee prophet over the entire Christian community, and if so how is he currently active in that role?  It is a humongous concept that as SMAC97 seems to believe is inchoate at best.

The president of the Church holds all priesthood keys given to men on the earth.  

The Church is "the kingdom of God" only in an inchoate, religious sense.

However, I do not think that lessens the significance of the priesthood, the keys, and the right and authority to govern and administer the Church, officiate in sacred ordinances, etc.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

.........................“I realize that not all people feel this way, but we believe he is the prophet for the whole world and not just members. . .” 

........................................... I have never heard this before, nor do I ever remember reading this in any LDS writings..........................

I don't hear people making that statement either, or at least not that I can recall.  Most Latter-day Saints are busy with their own adherence to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and with their local ward.  They just don't go about hectoring non-LDS with grandiose claims or demanding that other religious faiths heel to the LDS faith.  That is why we both don't recall hearing this sort of thing.

Quote

Does anyone on this forum know any non-LDS Christians who accept or acknowledge President Nelson as their Prophet .................... if he is thee Prophet for all Christianity in this dispensation? 

Do all or the vast majority of LDS Christians believe this to be true?

Is it a doctrine of the church, and if so, where is it spelled out in writing? If it is a doctrine of the church, I think it is very important that the non-LDS Christian community is aware of this...................

Again, you have already admitted that this is not something that one hears within the LDS faith, and I doubt that most Latter-day Saints have given the matter any thought.  Why would you think it so urgent that non-LDS people be made aware that a Mormon Prophet has said nothing of the kind?  Tempest in a teapot?  Very few non-Latter-day Saints are likely to give the Mormon Prophet the time of day.  The man in the street years ago was far more likely to give attention to the preaching of Billy Graham in his huge crusades broadcast on television, even though they might not be members of any given church.  He became a household name, whereas the Mormon Prophet has no such recognition.

However, as a matter of straightforward theology, a Church which claims to be the only authorized Church of Jesus Christ on the Earth, with the only authorized priesthood, is indeed likely to fit your designation as a Church making exclusive claims about prophetic authority.  However, there are other claimants to that authority, as you should know.

Quote

............ If he is thee Prophet for all of Christianity, what does that mean? How does that play out in the real world? How does he fulfill that role on a day to day basis? What is his pastoral or administrative authority as such, in and over the non-LDS portion of Christianity? Does he actively teach this? Has any LDS president ever actually done or said anything in that role? Or is it something assumed by the faithful, but never actually taught?.......................

One does occasionally see LDS authority exercised outside the geographical confines of the LDS faith.  In 1841, for example, Apostle Orson Hyde delivered a prayer of dedication on the Mt of Olives for the final gathering of the Jews and the building of their temple (on instructions of Joseph Smith).  Latter-day Saints who know about the event believe that he certainly had authority from God to do that important act.  At one time, there was also an LDS curse placed on the Southern States of the USA, which was later removed.  Again, Latter-day Saints believe that they have the authority to perform such actions, and that this is not merely jurisdiction over Latter-day Saints.

The question is really a biblical one:  Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc., are not merely prophets of Israel, but exercise authority over foreign peoples, such as the Egyptians.  The Israelites are the Chosen People who fulfill the promise of Abraham, which is an unconditional covenant to bless all the peoples of the Earth -- even if they do not know of that promise.  This applies equally to Pres Nelson, who is in direct succession to those biblical prophets.

Quote

To the Catholic folks on the forum, do Catholics believe and teach that the Pope is thee Prophet for all of Christianity in the world, including LDS Christians, or is he the head and Prophet of the Roman Catholic church? ................

Are there any such competing claims in the rest of Christianity? ....................

I would have thought that you'd have been well aware that Pope Francis is declared by his Church to be the direct successor of Peter, holding the Keys of the Kingdom of God on Earth, and that he is the very Deputy of Christ on Earth, and that he heads the only true Church of Jesus Christ on the Earth.  The members of all other so-called Christian churches are "separated brethren" who are mistaken in their beliefs, and who possess no formal authority from God (priesthood).  The Roman Catholic faith is quite exclusionary,.

Nearly as exclusive are the claims of Spencer Smith (no relation) on Evangelicalism, etc.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0fa8vWc0-k  ;  for Spencer, the Roman Catholics are not Christian, and that is just a start.

Finally, we must deal with the exclusive claims of the Jews, who claim to have the only authorized priesthood of God, and they accept converts.  In fact, it is clear from genetic evidence that the priesthood among the Jews really does go back thousands of years, and is the oldest organization on planet Earth. https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-oldest-organization-of-the-world/answer/Bob-Smith-3106 .

Edited July 3, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Jane_Doe]

5 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for the reply. Just one quick clarification about this - until I started attending an LDS ward three or so years ago and attending LDS history conferences I had never heard, nor did I teach or preach that any church to which I belonged was the most correct or the best representative of Christ throughout the world. Never. In fact I never participated in a denomination or group where anyone or any small group of leaders was authorized to speak for the group as a whole. Technically you don't "know" me, but I can assure you that very few in the evangelical community world-wide would insist that their group or leaders are the most correct and best representatives of Christ. That is why there are big groups like the NAE - the National Association of Evangelicals where folks from a hundred different groups come together to learn, teach, discuss, and pray together.

 

This is something that our experience on obviously varies.  I've met plenty of Evangelicals that are very militant that their particular leader is the best and you should listen to him/her the most.  Hence why they listen to that person.

That doesn't mean we can't all pray together and generally be corporative respectful humans beings -- we certainly should!

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The president of the Church holds all priesthood keys given to men on the earth.....................

I would only quibble with that statement to say that Pres Joseph Smith Jr provided permission for the Jews to gather and build their temple in Jerusalem in the 1841 prayer of dedication of the Holy Land by his Apostle Orson Hyde.  I suggest that this provides full authority for the Jews to do all of that on their own, with no interference from the Latter-day Saints.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for the reply. Just one quick clarification about this - until I started attending an LDS ward three or so years ago and attending LDS history conferences I had never heard, nor did I teach or preach that any church to which I belonged was the most correct or the best representative of Christ throughout the world. Never. In fact I never participated in a denomination or group where anyone or any small group of leaders was authorized to speak for the group as a whole. Technically you don't "know" me, but I can assure you that very few in the evangelical community world-wide would insist that their group or leaders are the most correct and best representatives of Christ. That is why there are big groups like the NAE - the National Association of Evangelicals where folks from a hundred different groups come together to learn, teach, discuss, and pray together.

One of the reasons I cite Spencer Smith is that he makes very exclusive claims, attacking Billy Graham, and most fundamentalists and evangelicals, even though he does claim to be an evangelical.  So, while ecumenism may be all well and good, some people harshly condemn it.

ETA:

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

....................... I never thought of our bishop as the spiritual head of everyone who lives in our entire area. There goes the idea of our voluntarily submitting to his authority! He is over us whether we submit or not! That is the teaching is it not?

That is false doctrine.  The key LDS doctrine is freedom of choice (agency).  It is never involuntary.  The bishop merely stands ready to aid anyone in need in his geographical jurisdiction.  That's what a pastor does, and the bishop is a pastor first and foremost.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Hi Bernard - I have copied the entire page on the church website about priesthood keys.

What are priesthood keys?

Priesthood keys are the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction. Keys usually apply to a geographic area, like a ward, stake, or mission. They also usually include authority over specific ordinances and activities (for instance, baptism, the sacrament, missionary work, and temple work).

Where do priesthood keys come from?

All priesthood keys ultimately come from Heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith taught, “The keys [of the priesthood] have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 104). The keys necessary for governing the Church in the latter days were restored to Joseph Smith by heavenly beings—for instance, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elias, and Elijah (see Joseph Smith—History 1:72; D&C 27:12; D&C 110:11–12). These keys have been passed on to his successors.

What do priesthood keys do? Why are they necessary?

Ordinances such as baptism and the sacrament help us to return to Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom. Through the keys of the priesthood, the Church administers these ordinances and provides an organization to carry on the work of the Lord in an orderly manner—“Mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion” (D&C 132:8).

So, for instance, although the Church has many worthy priesthood holders, they need authorization from someone holding keys before performing most ordinances. For example, if Aaronic Priesthood holders hear about a homebound ward member who would like to receive the sacrament at home, they cannot simply go and administer the sacrament to that member because they believe it’s the right thing to do. They must be authorized by the bishop, who holds the keys over the Aaronic Priesthood. And a father who holds the priesthood cannot simply baptize his 8-year-old daughter or ordain his 12-year-old son to the Aaronic Priesthood without first being authorized by the bishop to do so.

Who has priesthood keys?

Members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles hold all the keys necessary for governing the Church. Only the President of the Church has the right to exercise all of those keys. He delegates these keys to others who preside in the Church—temple presidents, mission presidents, stake presidents, district presidents, bishops, branch presidents, and quorum presidents, including deacons and teachers quorum presidents.

_____________________________________________________________

In every case the priesthood keys are to govern, administer ordinances, provide an organization, and direct the Church. It is clear the Church refers to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I see nothing therein about anything that isn't related specifically to "the Church." All of the context refers to the LDS Church. So how are the LDS priesthood keys the key to the question "Is the LDS president thee prophet over the entire Christian community, and if so how is he currently active in that role?  It is a humongous concept that as SMAC97 seems to believe is inchoate at best.

 

Pardon me, but you apparently did not read the scriptures I quoted. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

In every case the priesthood keys are to govern, administer ordinances, provide an organization, and direct the Church.

And even if you didn't read (or understand or accept) all the scriptures offered  the Church exists for everyone, living and dead, no matter where they live or lived on this planet. Some just choose to participate more thoroughly (i.e. benefit from the exercise of those keys) than others, ranging from temporal assistance (both recognized and not) and attendance out of curiosity and friendship to full temple blessings.

Edited July 3, 2020 by CV75

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok gang, ready to flip out?

We know that Christ's sacrifice on this planet, was the infinite sacrifice for all the worlds God has made 

So is our prophet then THE prophet for the universe?

No wonder there are so many UFO sightings lately.

They're just trying to get the latest conference report.

 

That assumes other worlds fell like ours did which I doubt. I do expect the atonement vindicates and gives the opportunity of atonement to those who failed a possibly different trial on other worlds and possibly even some who failed before they were physically born.

[Anijen]

4 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Nevermind. 

IDK, why I get a kick out of these type of posts.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

The president of the Church holds all priesthood keys given to men on the earth.  

The Church is "the kingdom of God" only in an inchoate, religious sense.

However, I do not think that lessens the significance of the priesthood, the keys, and the right and authority to govern and administer the Church, officiate in sacred ordinances, etc.

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't either. Certainly the holders of the LDS priesthood have all the rights and authority to govern and administer the LDS Church, officiate in its sacred ordinances, etc. I think that is what you are saying. Take care.

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I would have thought that you'd have been well aware that Pope Francis is declared by his Church to be the direct successor of Peter, holding the Keys of the Kingdom of God on Earth, and that he is he very Deputy of Christ on Earth, and that he heads the only true Church of Jesus Christ on the Earth.  The members of all other so-called Christian churches are "separated brethren" who are mistaken in their beliefs, and who possess no formal authority from God (priesthood).  The Roman Catholic faith is quite exclusionary,.

Nearly as exclusive are the claims of Spencer Smith (no relation) on Evangelicalism, etc.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0fa8vWc0-k  ;  for Spencer, the Roman Catholics are not Christian, and that is just a start.

First, Spencer Smith is not connected to any evangelical group. He is a lone wolf member of an independent Baptist church and clearly a fundamentalist and disciple of John R Rice who prided himself in being separated from those who were merely separated from modernists and neo-evangelicals - in other words all evangelicals and especially Billy Graham. I never heard of him (Smith) before you brought up his name. Where did you find this guy? John R Rice published a weekly newspaper entitled the Sword of the Lord for years. At one time it was the most subscribed to paper in all of fundamentalism and among conservative evangelicals. Certainly back in the day fundamentalist evangelists like Carl McIntyre, John R. Rice, Bob Jones Sr. and to some degree Jr., and Lee Roberson and others gathered folks around them who would have sworn allegiance to them and thought they were "better" (code for more spiritual) than all other Christians. These men were very popular from the 30s to the early 60s before evangelicalism became the dominant force in non-LDS Protestant Christianity. Because of my dad's position I had the joy??? of meeting most of them. Evangelicals by and large were and are averse to hero worship with the possible exception of Billy Graham.

Regarding the Catholics, I am aware of what you are saying. However, maybe I am simply hung up on the authority piece of the LDS priesthood and prophetic role. I was thinking the past few days that saying the President Nelson was thee prophet to the world that in the LDS priesthood sense, he and all of you believe he has spiritual authority over all other Christians, such authority granted exclusively by God to one person at a time, that person always being the sitting LDS president. I wonder if Pope Francis believes he has authority over all Christians - from LDS to Pentecostals to Christian Missionary Alliance folks? Perhaps next week I can drive over and speak with my friend the Catholic bishop in Nuevo. He will explain the role and relationship of Catholic leaders to the broader Protestant community, specifically in terms of authority. Catholics have clearly developed a list of those Protestant and non-Protestant groups whose baptism they accept as "authorized" and "valid" so they clearly grant some degree of authority to certain groups.  I will find out and come back to the forum with what I am told by our diocesan bishop. Best wishes to you.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Navidad

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

This is something that our experience on obviously varies.  I've met plenty of Evangelicals that are very militant that their particular leader is the best and you should listen to him/her the most.  Hence why they listen to that person.

That doesn't mean we can't all pray together and generally be corporative respectful humans beings -- we certainly should!

Certainly we should.

If you can think of any names of the Evangelical leaders about whom folks are militant that they are the best, I would love to know to whom you are referring. That is not a CFR or a challenge to you. I respect you too much. I am just interested in knowing the community you are talking about. That concept is really foreign to me. I can't even think of an Evangelical leader about whom that might be said. Fundamentalist? Yes. Perhaps Billy Graham is the only one with that kind of stature. Thanks.

 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That is false doctrine.  The key LDS doctrine is freedom of choice (agency).  It is never involuntary.  The bishop merely stands ready to aid anyone in need in his geographical jurisdiction.  That's what a pastor does, and the bishop is a pastor first and foremost.

Well, good. If I understand you correctly, then the LDS bishop then does not have spiritual authority as the highest LDS priesthood authority over everyone (Christian or not) in his geographical area? Is that correct? I certainly see our bishop as a pastor first and foremost. It is a bit confusing to understand when different folks say different things!

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Pardon me, but you apparently did not read the scriptures I quoted. 

From whom did you take sarcasm classes? You certainly learned you lessons well! As I recall you referred me to D&C 132:7 and D&C 65: 1-6. I see nothing in either of those texts about what we are discussing which is - Does the President of the LDS Church exercise authority over all the people on earth due to his being the senior priesthood holder in the LDS church. I see references to the Kingdom of God in your verses, but since you believe that the Kingdom of God is a LDS populated place (unless you agree that hundreds of thousands of non-LDS Christians will try and get in at the last minute) that has nothing to do with all the rest of the folks on earth, especially (from my OP) with spiritual and administrative authority over all the rest of Christianity on the planet. Also you clearly stated that the Priesthood keys were the key! I see nothing in the church's own explanation of the priesthood keys to suggest they grant authority for ordinances, governance, etc. beyond the walls of the LDS chapel or temple. What am I missing?

Edited July 3, 2020 by Navidad

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

And even if you didn't read (or understand or accept) all the scriptures offered  the Church exists for everyone, living and dead, no matter where they live or lived on this planet. Some just choose to participate more thoroughly (i.e. benefit from the exercise of those keys) than others, ranging from temporal assistance (both recognized and not) and attendance out of curiosity and friendship to full temple blessings.

Of course the church exists for everyone . . . I wouldn't question that. "Whosoever will may come!" That has nothing however to do with my original question which was in more or less fewer words, "Does the President of the LDS Church have spiritual and administrative authority over all people in the world, Christian or not? Does his position as the highest priesthood holder in the LDS Church give him authority over all Christians in the world - others have expanded that to be over all people in the world? That is a supercalifragilisticexpialadocius (wonderful or amazing claim! Is that formal LDS doctrine and how does that work in the day to day world? Those are the other aspects of my original question. I agree completely with your comment, but it doesn't answer my questions.

[Hamba Tuhan]

It is amazing to me that someone could have spent so much time amongst the Saints and still not know us.

Proclamation

From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, April 6, 1980

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized 150 years ago today. On this sesquicentennial anniversary we issue to the world a proclamation concerning its progress, its doctrine, its mission, and its message.

On April 6, 1830, a small group assembled in the farmhouse of Peter Whitmer in Fayette Township in the state of New York. Six men participated in the formal organization procedures, with Joseph Smith as their leader. From that modest beginning in a rural area, this work has grown consistently and broadly, as men and women in many lands have embraced the doctrine and entered the waters of baptism. There are now almost four and a half million living members, and the Church is stronger and growing more rapidly than at any time in its history. Congregations of Latter-day Saints are found throughout North, Central, and South America; in the nations of Europe; in Asia; in Africa; in Australia and the islands of the South Pacific; and in other areas of the world. The gospel restored through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith is presently taught in forty-six languages and in eighty-one nations. From that small meeting held in a farmhouse a century and a half ago, the Church has grown until today it includes nearly twelve thousand organized congregations.

We testify that this restored gospel was introduced into the world by the marvelous appearance of God the Eternal Father and his Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. That most glorious manifestation marked the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of Peter, who prophesied of “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began,” this in preparation for the coming of the Lord to reign personally upon the earth (Acts 3:21).

We solemnly affirm that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in fact a restoration of the Church established by the Son of God, when in mortality he organized his work upon the earth; that it carries his sacred name, even the name of Jesus Christ; that it is built upon a foundation of Apostles and prophets, he being the chief cornerstone; that its priesthood, in both the Aaronic and Melchizedek orders, was restored under the hands of those who held it anciently: John the Baptist, in the case of the Aaronic; and Peter, James, and John in the case of the Melchizedek.

We declare that the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the gift and power of God and that it stands beside the Bible as another witness of Jesus the Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Together they testify of his divine sonship.

We give our witness that the doctrines and practices of the Church encompass salvation and exaltation not only for those who are living, but also for the dead, and that in sacred temples built for this purpose a great vicarious work is going forward in behalf of those who have died, so that all men and women of all generations may become the beneficiaries of the saving ordinances of the gospel of the Master. This great, selfless labor is one of the distinguishing features of this restored Church of Jesus Christ.

We affirm the sanctity of the family as a divine creation and declare that God our Eternal Father will hold parents accountable to rear their children in light and truth, teaching them “to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord” (D&C 68:28). We teach that the most sacred of all relationships, those family associations of husbands and wives and parents and children, may be continued eternally when marriage is solemnized under the authority of the holy priesthood exercised in temples dedicated for these divinely authorized purposes.

We bear witness that all men and women are sons and daughters of God, each accountable to him; that our lives here on earth are part of an eternal plan; that death is not the end, but rather a transition from this to another sphere of purposeful activity made possible through the Atonement of the Redeemer of the world; and that we shall there have the opportunity of working and growing toward perfection.

We testify that the spirit of prophecy and revelation is among us. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (A of F 1:9). The heavens are not sealed; God continues to speak to his children through a prophet empowered to declare his word, now as he did anciently.

The mission of the Church today, as it has been from the beginning, is to teach the gospel of Christ to all the world in obedience to the commandment given by the Savior prior to his ascension and repeated in modern revelation: “Go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (D&C 68:8).

Through the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed these words of solemn warning: “Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

“For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

“And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

“And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days” (D&C 1:1–4).

It is our obligation, therefore, to teach faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, to plead with the people of the earth for individual repentance, to administer the sacred ordinances of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost—all of this under the authority of the priesthood of God.

It is our responsibility to espouse and follow an inspired program of instruction and activity, and to build and maintain appropriate facilities for the accomplishment of this, that all who will hear and accept may grow in understanding of doctrine and develop in principles of Christian service to their fellowmen.

As we stand today on the summit of 150 years of progress, we contemplate humbly and gratefully the sacrifices of those who have gone before us, many of whom gave their lives in testimony of this truth. We are thankful for their faith, for their example, for their mighty labors and willing consecrations for this cause which they considered more precious than life itself. They have passed to us a remarkable heritage. We are resolved to build on that heritage for the blessing and benefit of those who follow, who will constitute ever enlarging numbers of faithful men and women throughout the earth.

This is God’s work. It is his kingdom we are building. Anciently the prophet Daniel spoke of it as a stone cut out of the mountain without hands, which was to roll forth to fill the whole earth (see Dan. 2:31–45). We invite the honest in heart everywhere to listen to the teachings of our missionaries who are sent forth as messengers of eternal truth, to study and learn, and to ask God, our Eternal Father, in the name of his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, if these things are true.

“And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

“And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things” (Moro. 10:4–5).

We call upon all men and women to forsake evil and turn to God; to work together to build that brotherhood which must be recognized when we truly come to know that God is our Father and we are his children; and to worship him and his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind. In the authority of the Holy Priesthood in us vested, we bless the seekers of truth wherever they may be and invoke the favor of the Almighty upon all men and nations whose God is the Lord, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

"A prophet of God" is not the same as saying he is "thee prophet of God over all the earth (or universe!).

You may want to check the temple recommend interview questions:

Quote

Do you sustain the president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

 

[OGHoosier]

My take is somewhat rough and unschooled, but we know that the Prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Presiding High Priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood on Earth, and thus presides over it's extension, the Aaronic Priesthood. These are the priesthoods through which covenants with God are made, covenants which determine our standing with and obligations towards God and His kingdom on the Earth. All covenants made in the Church are made on the basis of delegated authority from God, which passes through the Presiding High Priest. 

It seems to me that the Prophet has direct spiritual and administrative authority (such as it is in a Church which does not pretend to civil authority) over those who have made covenants by way of the Priesthood over which he is steward. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are tasked with extending those covenants to all of humanity. As such, they are empowered to make proclamations to the world and send forth missionaries, which is why missionary assignments are carried out under the supervision of an Apostle at all times. These proclamations go to the world bearing the imprimatur of God's kingdom, but I can't imagine that they would maintain any form of authoritative force over those who have not covenanted to sustain and be bound by them. Old Testament prophets, with some notable exceptions, mainly confined their preaching to Israel, the covenant people. When prophets such as Jonah (putting the historicity of Jonah aside for a moment) went beyond the borders of Israel, they usually did so under specific instructions. The same goes with the Lord and his original Twelve Apostles, who were constrained to Israel until the Lord commanded otherwise. It seems to me that the authority of prophets extends to those under covenant, save when the Lord commands them to preach to the broader world. 

Thus, I think the LDS Prophet is the direct spiritual leader over those who have made covenants through the restored priesthood, and his stewardship with regard to the rest of the world consists of warning, admonition, and invitation to make those same covenants. 

I'm just spitballing, though. I very well could be wrong, and I welcome correction where it is merited. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Well, good. If I understand you correctly, then the LDS bishop then does not have spiritual authority as the highest LDS priesthood authority over everyone (Christian or not) in his geographical area? Is that correct? I certainly see our bishop as a pastor first and foremost. It is a bit confusing to understand when different folks say different things!

You speak of an LDS bishop being "over" people, while the LDS themselves see him as a servant who makes himself available.  And it is a tough job, as any pastor, rabbi, or imam understands.  All have spiritual authority, but I am unfamiliar with the concept of force being married to that concept.  Some churches and religious organizations do employ force and civil law to require obedience to their spiritual demands.  As you know, the Inquisition and John Calvin used to burn heretics at the stake, but only if torture did not change their opinions.  Even in Colonial America, the Puritans and the Church of England each exercised direct control over any person living in their jurisdiction.  The Puritans executing people for witchcraft, and the Anglicans taxing everyone and controlling their civil conduct (a state church).  I thought that we had pretty much left all that behind, but you seem to feel that perhaps we have not.

[Raingirl]

55 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It is amazing to me that someone could have spent so much time amongst the Saints and still not know us.

Proclamation

From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, April 6, 1980

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized 150 years ago today. On this sesquicentennial anniversary we issue to the world a proclamation concerning its progress, its doctrine, its mission, and its message.

On April 6, 1830, a small group assembled in the farmhouse of Peter Whitmer in Fayette Township in the state of New York. Six men participated in the formal organization procedures, with Joseph Smith as their leader. From that modest beginning in a rural area, this work has grown consistently and broadly, as men and women in many lands have embraced the doctrine and entered the waters of baptism. There are now almost four and a half million living members, and the Church is stronger and growing more rapidly than at any time in its history. Congregations of Latter-day Saints are found throughout North, Central, and South America; in the nations of Europe; in Asia; in Africa; in Australia and the islands of the South Pacific; and in other areas of the world. The gospel restored through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith is presently taught in forty-six languages and in eighty-one nations. From that small meeting held in a farmhouse a century and a half ago, the Church has grown until today it includes nearly twelve thousand organized congregations.

We testify that this restored gospel was introduced into the world by the marvelous appearance of God the Eternal Father and his Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. That most glorious manifestation marked the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of Peter, who prophesied of “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began,” this in preparation for the coming of the Lord to reign personally upon the earth (Acts 3:21).

We solemnly affirm that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in fact a restoration of the Church established by the Son of God, when in mortality he organized his work upon the earth; that it carries his sacred name, even the name of Jesus Christ; that it is built upon a foundation of Apostles and prophets, he being the chief cornerstone; that its priesthood, in both the Aaronic and Melchizedek orders, was restored under the hands of those who held it anciently: John the Baptist, in the case of the Aaronic; and Peter, James, and John in the case of the Melchizedek.

We declare that the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the gift and power of God and that it stands beside the Bible as another witness of Jesus the Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Together they testify of his divine sonship.

We give our witness that the doctrines and practices of the Church encompass salvation and exaltation not only for those who are living, but also for the dead, and that in sacred temples built for this purpose a great vicarious work is going forward in behalf of those who have died, so that all men and women of all generations may become the beneficiaries of the saving ordinances of the gospel of the Master. This great, selfless labor is one of the distinguishing features of this restored Church of Jesus Christ.

We affirm the sanctity of the family as a divine creation and declare that God our Eternal Father will hold parents accountable to rear their children in light and truth, teaching them “to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord” (D&C 68:28). We teach that the most sacred of all relationships, those family associations of husbands and wives and parents and children, may be continued eternally when marriage is solemnized under the authority of the holy priesthood exercised in temples dedicated for these divinely authorized purposes.

We bear witness that all men and women are sons and daughters of God, each accountable to him; that our lives here on earth are part of an eternal plan; that death is not the end, but rather a transition from this to another sphere of purposeful activity made possible through the Atonement of the Redeemer of the world; and that we shall there have the opportunity of working and growing toward perfection.

We testify that the spirit of prophecy and revelation is among us. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (A of F 1:9). The heavens are not sealed; God continues to speak to his children through a prophet empowered to declare his word, now as he did anciently.

The mission of the Church today, as it has been from the beginning, is to teach the gospel of Christ to all the world in obedience to the commandment given by the Savior prior to his ascension and repeated in modern revelation: “Go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (D&C 68:8).

Through the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed these words of solemn warning: “Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

“For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

“And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

“And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days” (D&C 1:1–4).

It is our obligation, therefore, to teach faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, to plead with the people of the earth for individual repentance, to administer the sacred ordinances of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost—all of this under the authority of the priesthood of God.

It is our responsibility to espouse and follow an inspired program of instruction and activity, and to build and maintain appropriate facilities for the accomplishment of this, that all who will hear and accept may grow in understanding of doctrine and develop in principles of Christian service to their fellowmen.

As we stand today on the summit of 150 years of progress, we contemplate humbly and gratefully the sacrifices of those who have gone before us, many of whom gave their lives in testimony of this truth. We are thankful for their faith, for their example, for their mighty labors and willing consecrations for this cause which they considered more precious than life itself. They have passed to us a remarkable heritage. We are resolved to build on that heritage for the blessing and benefit of those who follow, who will constitute ever enlarging numbers of faithful men and women throughout the earth.

This is God’s work. It is his kingdom we are building. Anciently the prophet Daniel spoke of it as a stone cut out of the mountain without hands, which was to roll forth to fill the whole earth (see Dan. 2:31–45). We invite the honest in heart everywhere to listen to the teachings of our missionaries who are sent forth as messengers of eternal truth, to study and learn, and to ask God, our Eternal Father, in the name of his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, if these things are true.

“And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

“And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things” (Moro. 10:4–5).

We call upon all men and women to forsake evil and turn to God; to work together to build that brotherhood which must be recognized when we truly come to know that God is our Father and we are his children; and to worship him and his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind. In the authority of the Holy Priesthood in us vested, we bless the seekers of truth wherever they may be and invoke the favor of the Almighty upon all men and nations whose God is the Lord, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

That’s because he’s not interested in knowing or understanding us. His only interest is in criticizing us and our beliefs. He’s admitted he only attends an LDS ward because it’s the most convenient, and then proceeds to attack our beliefs, whine that we don’t consider he and his wife members of the church, or recognize their superiority that he’s constantly telling us about. 

Attending a church simply because it’s the closest and you can’t be bothered to make the effort to travel a little further, only to then spend years on the internet whining and criticizing - rather bizarre behavior.  I would think that a person would much rather attend a church whose teachings they agree with. That would be the logical path. But then one wouldn’t be able to brag about their superiority, would they?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

First, Spencer Smith is not connected to any evangelical group. He is a lone wolf member of an independent Baptist church and clearly a fundamentalist and disciple of John R Rice who prided himself in being separated from those who were merely separated from modernists and neo-evangelicals - in other words all evangelicals and especially Billy Graham. I never heard of him (Smith) before you brought up his name. Where did you find this guy? John R Rice published a weekly newspaper entitled the Sword of the Lord for years. At one time it was the most subscribed to paper in all of fundamentalism and among conservative evangelicals. Certainly back in the day fundamentalist evangelists like Carl McIntyre, John R. Rice, Bob Jones Sr. and to some degree Jr., and Lee Roberson and others gathered folks around them who would have sworn allegiance to them and thought they were "better" (code for more spiritual) than all other Christians. These men were very popular from the 30s to the early 60s before evangelicalism became the dominant force in non-LDS Protestant Christianity. Because of my dad's position I had the joy??? of meeting most of them. Evangelicals by and large were and are averse to hero worship with the possible exception of Billy Graham.

Billy Graham was a humble man who believed that he was called of God to preach the Gospel, and the results were extraordinary.  He never claimed spiritual authority over others, and he never established a church of Billy.  He earned worldwide respect, and justly so.  Those who came forward to give themselves to Christ were never shunted into any particular denomination.  He did urge people to find a good Bible-believing church to attend.

The hatred and intolerance of people like Spencer Smith is not so unusual in my experience.  And, yes, I was familiar with the Sword of the Lord before John Rice.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Regarding the Catholics, I am aware of what you are saying. However, maybe I am simply hung up on the authority piece of the LDS priesthood and prophetic role. I was thinking the past few days that saying the President Nelson was thee prophet to the world that in the LDS priesthood sense, he and all of you believe he has spiritual authority over all other Christians, such authority granted exclusively by God to one person at a time, that person always being the sitting LDS president.

I don't recall any LDS members claiming that Pres Nelson is "the prophet to the world," nor making the claim that "he has spiritual authority over all other Christians."  Your claim that all the denizens of this board believe that is just silly.  A wide array of diverse views is held by the members of the board, many of whom are not even LDS.  No one appointed you as spokesman for this board.  Yet you arrogate to yourself the right to speak on everyone's behalf.  If you will bother to read the LDS "Proclamation to the World," you will find no claim there that the LDS Prophet "has spiritual authority over all other Christians."  Those are your bellicose words, based on your warped view of your fellows on this board.  You would do well to quote the actual words used by LDS leaders and by the members of this board -- the way I have done here in quoting you.  That is the only honest way to carry on such a conversation.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I wonder if Pope Francis believes he has authority over all Christians - from LDS to Pentecostals to Christian Missionary Alliance folks?

Perhaps you failed to read what I wrote about Pope Francis.  Maybe you thought I just made it up, and that the RC Church has no such claims.  Someone like yourself, who claims to have been trained in theology, would surely know those elementary facts.  Yet you are apparently in denial, perhaps for tactical reasons.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Perhaps next week I can drive over and speak with my friend the Catholic bishop in Nuevo. He will explain the role and relationship of Catholic leaders to the broader Protestant community, specifically in terms of authority. Catholics have clearly developed a list of those Protestant and non-Protestant groups whose baptism they accept as "authorized" and "valid" so they clearly grant some degree of authority to certain groups.  I will find out and come back to the forum with what I am told by our diocesan bishop. Best wishes to you.

We have several Roman Catholic members on this board.  I'd be interested in their responses.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

That’s because he’s not interested in knowing or understanding us. His only interest is in criticizing us and our beliefs. He’s admitted he only attends an LDS ward because it’s the most convenient, and then proceeds to attack our beliefs, whine that we don’t consider he and his wife members of the church, or recognize their superiority that he’s constantly telling us about. 

Attending a church simply because it’s the closest and you can’t be bothered to make the effort to travel a little further, only to then spend years on the internet whining and criticizing - rather bizarre behavior.  I would think that a person would much rather attend a church whose teachings they agree with. That would be the logical path. But then one wouldn’t be able to brag about their superiority, would they?

On the other hand, he is doing a doctorate on the LDS Church, so it seems like a good idea for him to attend regularly.  I do agree that he needs some lessons on accurate reportage, rather than misreading and misunderstanding everything.  Perhaps he will drop some of those flaws along the way.  One can hope.

[Calm]

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/04/the-prophet-of-god?lang=eng
 

Quote

A prophet is a watchman on the tower, protecting us from spiritual dangers we may not see.

The Lord said to Ezekiel, “I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word [from] my mouth, and warn them from me.”⁵

We often speak of our need to follow the prophet, but consider this heavy burden the Lord places upon His prophet: “If thou dost not speak to warn the wicked … , [and] that wicked man … die in his iniquity; … his blood will I require at thine hand.”...

A prophet does not stand between you and the Savior. Rather, he stands beside you and points the way to the Savior. A prophet’s greatest responsibility and most precious gift to us is his sure witness, his certain knowledge, that Jesus is the Christ. Like Peter of old, our prophet declares, “[He is] the Christ, the Son of the living God.”19

The Prophet is God’s watchman, not his king. 

He calls all of us in the world to remind us of God’s promises, he functions as voice of warning to those who think of turning from the path to God. 
 

I would say he is responsible to the world, all in the world have the right to ask of him for his witness of the Lord.  He is responsible to God for sharing his witness to those he is commanded to share it. 
 

OTOH, he is not responsible for the world, only for those who accept his authority and follow his counsel is he required by God to account for as described in the D&C iirc (I will try and find the scripture I am thinking of...added, can’t find the one I am thinking of, maybe someone else can come up with a relevant one).  For all it is a voluntary submission to his authority given to him by God. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Calm