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Will There Be Any Women in Perdition?


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Perdition, the furthest place from God that a resurrected person can go, and those get that lucky ticket are only referred to as "Sons of Perdition" NOT "Sons and Daughters of Perdition".  I believe through many years of study that it will only  be a few but will be males that go to perdition.  Does anyone have any thoughts if women will also be there?  If so any particular thinking on why?  

If there are no females bound for perdition, is it plausible to consider when the third of the hosts of heaven chose to follow Satan, all those how went down that irredeemable path are all male spirits. 

 

Cheers....

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This is not a new idea.  The highly suspect Mosiah Hancock vision implied this teaching back in the 1850s.  In fact your statement seems directly lifted from that vision.

That vision was also used as an explanation of polygamy.  However that would make plural marriage a remedy rather than an eternal principle.

The question is what is required to make a Son of Perdition?  If it's something women have the opportunity to do then there can be Daughters of Perdition too.  Unless the idea is that a woman isn't capable of that level of sin, rejection and rebellion.

Edited by JLHPROF
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41 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

Perdition, the furthest place from God that a resurrected person can go, and those get that lucky ticket are only referred to as "Sons of Perdition" NOT "Sons and Daughters of Perdition".  I believe through many years of study that it will only  be a few but will be males that go to perdition.  Does anyone have any thoughts if women will also be there?  If so any particular thinking on why?  

If there are no females bound for perdition, is it plausible to consider when the third of the hosts of heaven chose to follow Satan, all those how went down that irredeemable path are all male spirits. 

Cheers....

If it is not good that man should alone, then it would be desirable to the man condemned to Perdition to be alone. So, it makes sense that he not be alone, and it also makes sense that the females would not enjoy the company either.

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29 minutes ago, Rain said:

If you are going on reasoning of "sons" and not "sons and daughters" then that leaves women out on a whole LOT of things since most scriptures and until recently most conference talks used men language and not women or a plural of the two.  Like using "Heavenly Father" verses "Heavenly Parents".

“Sons of men“, for example means human beings.

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2 hours ago, pcarthew said:

Perdition, the furthest place from God that a resurrected person can go, and those get that lucky ticket are only referred to as "Sons of Perdition" NOT "Sons and Daughters of Perdition".  I believe through many years of study that it will only  be a few but will be males that go to perdition.  Does anyone have any thoughts if women will also be there?  If so any particular thinking on why?  

If there are no females bound for perdition, is it plausible to consider when the third of the hosts of heaven chose to follow Satan, all those how went down that irredeemable path are all male spirits. 

 

Cheers....

I wouldn't worry about it.  According to Mr. Fielding Smith all people who don't get the Mormon exaltation will be genderless.  That is to say, those sons of perdition aren't really male anyway, most likely.  Of course that suggests before this world was, as we all mingled together, in grand councils as we likely moved shoulder to shoulder, we weren't gendered either.  This all flips the gender is eternal thing upside-down.  If say, a person was assigned, due to failing human inspiration, to woman on this earth.  But God intended that person to be male.  Will that person if exalted, be male or female?  What if that assigned by men person to be female had deep inside her the nature of man, but failed, in her temerity, to declare herself male, yearned still to be male in the eternities?  Remember our old desires and habits from earth will remain with us.  If GOd says, "well you were male on earth due to some mix up and that's going to happen, so you're male now eternally".  Then I suppose that settles it.  But what if God's like, "shoot, I don't care what you decide.  I"ll magically make your privates what you want, just let me know.  That which I take away I take away, and that which I change I change, I am God."  Or something.  

Edited by stemelbow
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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

If it is not good that man should alone, then it would be desirable to the man condemned to Perdition to be alone. So, it makes sense that he not be alone, and it also makes sense that the females would not enjoy the company either.

I think that there is great insight to what you are saying.  I also believe that women hold a special place in the heavens because of the uniqueness of how they bear children.  It is with great travail that women bring mortal life in too being.  It is generally through much sickness, suffering and agony they endure that mankind might have a mortal, temporal existence. So this creates the  most unique of sacred relationships between Christ and Women.  Women bear the human race into mortality and Christ bears the human race into immortality through greater suffering, pain and torment.  It is a unique relationship many will not understand until the next life.  The reverence that the generations and nations will show to our sisters in the next life will be hard to imagine from our mortal perspective.  God's work is frustrated with out a willingness from women to suffer often nigh unto death to bring about life.  So as a mother bears children one by one into mortality, our Saviours bears us one by one into immortality.  It is one of the most powerful and beautiful relationships in the universe.  It is a mission and responsibility as great as the priesthood. Without our Mothers the priesthood has no use or purpose.  Perhaps that uniqueness of the bearing of life qualifies our sisters for something special.

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15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I wouldn't worry about it.  According to Mr. Fielding Smith all people who don't get the Mormon exaltation will be genderless.  That is to say, those sons of perdition aren't really male anyway, most likely.  Of course that suggests before this world was, as we all mingled together, in grand councils as we likely moved shoulder to shoulder, we weren't gendered either.  This all flips the gender is eternal thing upside-down.  If say, a person was assigned, due to failing human inspiration, to woman on this earth.  But God intended that person to be male.  Will that person if exalted, be male or female?  What if that assigned by men person to be male had deep inside him the nature of woman, but failed, in his temerity, to declare himself female, yearned still to be female in the eternities?  Remember our old desires and habits from earth will remain with us.  If GOd says, "well you were male on earth due to some mix up and that's going to happen, so you're male now eternally".  Then I suppose that settles it.  But what if God's like, "shoot, I don't care what you decide.  I"ll magically make your privates what you want, just let me know.  That which I take away I take away, and that which I change I change, I am God."  Or something.  

Excerpt The family a Proclamation to the World: 

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

I go with the proclamation.  I don't believe we will be genderless.

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4 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

Excerpt The family a Proclamation to the World: 

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

I go with the proclamation.  I don't believe we will be genderless.

Just talking possibilities.  I don't know that Mormon heaven is true in the least.  But if Mr. Fielding Smith carries any weight or simply spoke presumptuously, I suppose we won't know until some coming day.  It seems like the family Proclamation thingy was motivated by political interests, so it might bring in some questions about whether it accurately teaches the things of eternity.  It might simply be trying to drive a stake in the ground and say, "you will go this far, and no further!".  Possibilities are endless.  

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11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Just talking possibilities.  I don't know that Mormon heaven is true in the least.  But if Mr. Fielding Smith carries any weight or simply spoke presumptuously, I suppose we won't know until some coming day.  It seems like the family Proclamation thingy was motivated by political interests, so it might bring in some questions about whether it accurately teaches the things of eternity.  It might simply be trying to drive a stake in the ground and say, "you will go this far, and no further!".  Possibilities are endless.  

It is a nice thought to think of heaven based on the theology of The Church of Jesus Christ, the doctrine is that all of God's children but a few sons of perdition, will live in heaven.  The which or where in heaven is up to us, that is not supposed to be a gratuitous comment, I really believe that.  Whether we are LDS or not, if our deepest desire is to go home to be with our Father in Heaven and we do all that we can according to our knowledge, even if we don't get Christs doctrines yet, we will get home to Him who loves us all more than anything else.  On one other thing, the family proclamation was a little way a head of the political correctness curve.  I remember very clearly thinking; why are the brethren stating the obvious.  Now it is crystal clear why they were.  I appreciate you are talking possibilities, so I had better get on and be good cause I enjoy being a boy and don't want any smooth areas!!🤣🤣🤣.  have a lovely weekend

 

 

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23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Just talking possibilities.  I don't know that Mormon heaven is true in the least.  But if Mr. Fielding Smith carries any weight or simply spoke presumptuously, I suppose we won't know until some coming day.  It seems like the family Proclamation thingy was motivated by political interests, so it might bring in some questions about whether it accurately teaches the things of eternity.  It might simply be trying to drive a stake in the ground and say, "you will go this far, and no further!".  Possibilities are endless.  

Joseph and Mary's flight into Egypt was also "motivated by political interests"

Quote

When the Magi came in search of Jesus, they went to Herod the Great in Jerusalem to ask where to find the newborn "King of the Jews". Herod became paranoid that the child would threaten his throne, and sought to kill him (2:1–8). Herod initiated the Massacre of the Innocents in hopes of killing the child (Matthew 2:16Matthew 2:18).

Consequently...

Quote

But an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and warned him to take Jesus and his mother into Egypt (Matthew 2:13).

Egypt was a logical place to find refuge, as it was outside the dominions of King Herod, but both Egypt and Judea were part of the Roman Empire, linked by a coastal road known as "the way of the sea", making travel between them easy and relatively safe.

The flight into Egypt was precipitated by "political interests," but still involved divine intervention (the angel in the dream).

The cessation of polygamy also involved "political interests," and yet was still revelatory (OD-2).

There are many more such examples.  Revelation can and does arise from issues that have a political dimension.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Quick thoughts:

1. Women are as spiritually capable as men.  Men can exercise faith in Christ unto exaltation, and so can women.  Concomitantly, I believe that men can debase themselves unto perdition, and so can women.

2. I think the reference to "sons of perdition" is, in some instances, a figure of speech that is not intended to be construed narrowly.  For example, in D&C 93:4 the Lord states: "The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men."  And in JST, Mark 3:22, the Lord states: "But he answered them and said, Verily I say unto you, All sins which men have committed, when they repent, shall be forgiven them; for I came to preach repentance unto the sons of men."  Jesus didn't dwell exclusively among XY-chromosome carriers, nor did he "preach repentance" unto only XY-chromosome carriers.

3. Based on the foregoing considerations, I think "sons of Perdition" is a figurative expression, and can apply to both men and women.  However, I'm fairly ambivalent on this issue.  I am open to being wrong about it.

4. I seldom give the foregoing considerations much thought.  I think it has a tendency to create idle curiosity that devolves into judgmentalism (about who is or might be a son of Perdition).

Thanks,

-Smac

Very good, there is a lot to think about in what you say and I believe D&C 93:4 and what you say is correct, I just have this nagging thought about no women in perdition.  Truth be known, it matters not because you and I and nearly all who have dwelt upon this earth will never know because we will never get there and I am guessing that is a good thing!

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9 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

It is a nice thought to think of heaven based on the theology of The Church of Jesus Christ, the doctrine is that all of God's children but a few sons of perdition, will live in heaven.  The which or where in heaven is up to us, that is not supposed to be a gratuitous comment, I really believe that.  Whether we are LDS or not, if our deepest desire is to go home to be with our Father in Heaven and we do all that we can according to our knowledge, even if we don't get Christs doctrines yet, we will get home to Him who loves us all more than anything else.  On one other thing, the family proclamation was a little way a head of the political correctness curve.  I remember very clearly thinking; why are the brethren stating the obvious.  Now it is crystal clear why they were.  I appreciate you are talking possibilities, so I had better get on and be good cause I enjoy being a boy and don't want any smooth areas!!🤣🤣🤣.  have a lovely weekend

 

 

THank you, you too.  I admit after all my consideration I'm not sure I see much positive in the LDS view of things.  And since it doesn't really square well if with what we can know, I'm happily far less convinced and far more undecided about any activities after we die.  

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Joseph and Mary's flight into Egypt was also "motivated by political interests"

Consequently...

The flight into Egypt was precipitated by "political interests," but still involved divine intervention (the angel in the dream).

The cessation of polygamy also involved "political interests," and yet was still revelatory (OD-2).

There are many more such examples.  Revelation can and does arise from issues that have a political dimension.

Thanks,

-Smac                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

I admit the Jesus story is full of problems due to the contradiction and the seeming lack of support in history.  So I'm not sure its a great example for your point.  Also, the ending of polygamy is only inspired if you believe it is.  To those who think it was not divine, its simply a relic of history rather than a divine mandate.  But I hear ya in that if any of it is inspired it could very well could be inspired even if political interests were involved.  I didn't mean to suggest it's not possible that the proclamation is true and Joseph Fielding Smith is not.  It's certainly possible that Joseph Fielding SMith was wrong...then again it's quite possible and likely he was wrong about  a great many things including the inspired claims about the Church.                            

Edited by stemelbow
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52 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

I think that there is great insight to what you are saying.  I also believe that women hold a special place in the heavens because of the uniqueness of how they bear children.  It is with great travail that women bring mortal life in too being.  It is generally through much sickness, suffering and agony they endure that mankind might have a mortal, temporal existence. So this creates the  most unique of sacred relationships between Christ and Women.  Women bear the human race into mortality and Christ bears the human race into immortality through greater suffering, pain and torment.  It is a unique relationship many will not understand until the next life.  The reverence that the generations and nations will show to our sisters in the next life will be hard to imagine from our mortal perspective.  God's work is frustrated with out a willingness from women to suffer often nigh unto death to bring about life.  So as a mother bears children one by one into mortality, our Saviours bears us one by one into immortality.  It is one of the most powerful and beautiful relationships in the universe.  It is a mission and responsibility as great as the priesthood. Without our Mothers the priesthood has no use or purpose.  Perhaps that uniqueness of the bearing of life qualifies our sisters for something special.

And please don't equate motherhood with the priesthood.  Motherhood goes with fatherhood.

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58 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

I think that there is great insight to what you are saying.  I also believe that women hold a special place in the heavens because of the uniqueness of how they bear children.  It is with great travail that women bring mortal life in too being.  It is generally through much sickness, suffering and agony they endure that mankind might have a mortal, temporal existence. So this creates the  most unique of sacred relationships between Christ and Women.  Women bear the human race into mortality and Christ bears the human race into immortality through greater suffering, pain and torment.  It is a unique relationship many will not understand until the next life.  The reverence that the generations and nations will show to our sisters in the next life will be hard to imagine from our mortal perspective.  God's work is frustrated with out a willingness from women to suffer often nigh unto death to bring about life.  So as a mother bears children one by one into mortality, our Saviours bears us one by one into immortality.  It is one of the most powerful and beautiful relationships in the universe.  It is a mission and responsibility as great as the priesthood. Without our Mothers the priesthood has no use or purpose.  Perhaps that uniqueness of the bearing of life qualifies our sisters for something special.

I also think the eternal potential of both men and women -- including Christ Himself --  points in both directions.

Edited by CV75
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10 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

Very good, there is a lot to think about in what you say and I believe D&C 93:4 and what you say is correct, I just have this nagging thought about no women in perdition.  Truth be known, it matters not because you and I and nearly all who have dwelt upon this earth will never know because we will never get there and I am guessing that is a good thing!

You can still figure it out in the kingdoms of glory through the process of elimination.

Edited by CV75
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19 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I admit the Jesus story is full of problems due to the contradiction and the seeming lack of support in history. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "contradiction."

As for "seeming lack of support in history," I quite okay with that.  The vast majority of events in the world have not been meticulously documented and recorded ("in history").  That doesn't mean they didn't happen.

19 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So I'm not sure its a great example for your point. 

I think it's pretty good.  There are plenty more scriptural examples of events having both "political" and divine elements.  The plagues of Egypt.  Elijah's contest with the priests of Baal.  The ordination of David as king.  The easing of the burdens of the people of Alma in Mosiah 24.  The murder of the chief judge in Helaman 8-9.  

19 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Also, the ending of polygamy is only inspired if you believe it is.  To those who think it was not divine, its simply a relic of history rather than a divine mandate. 

Isn't that axiomatic?  

Thanks,

-Smac

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17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I also think the eternal potential of both men and women -- including Christ Himself --  points in both directions.

I completely agree.  I have just as strong a feelings about Fathers and our Heavenly Father and our Saviour Jesus Christ.  My thoughts on either are not one without the other.  It is my feeling about women and the bearing of life, it is not a mutually exclusive view on women.  It can be equally said that the Priesthood is useless with out men because with out men God's plan is also frustrated too.  We know, for those who believe in the doctrine of the church, the ultimate of all heavens cannot be without man or woman.  It is an unbreakable union that if nurtured will never end with the true covenants in place. In no way I would demean men, without them there is no plan and without woman it is the same.  Just to be clear, my comments were in no way to be exclusively about women to the exclusion of our great brotherhood. 😊

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1 hour ago, pcarthew said:

Excerpt The family a Proclamation to the World: 

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

I go with the proclamation.  I don't believe we will be genderless.

The same Mosiah Hancock vision indicated we were created in pairs and then only the men fell with the adversary.  (An idea that seems to have been taken from the Greeks and Plato, not really scripture).
Then according to the vision God established polygamy as a solution.

 

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