The Fate of the Unredeemed

[Navidad]

29 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I hope you get to feeling better. I am keying in on the last verse I quoted from Ch 42. Yes, the passage is definitely speaking of Christ because the isles shall wait for His law. The last verse says: "9 Behold, the ^aformer things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell ^byou of them." The Father is telling Yeshua that new things are to come to pass, but that He will tell Yeshua of them before they transpire. He told Yeshua everything He wanted Yeshua to say. Indeed, Yeshua tells us that He only spoke what the Father told HIm. My point remains that the world is following the plan of the Father. Yeshua did not know all this plan in advance, but was being told things before they came to pass. He says this Himself again in Rev 1. This does not indicate Yeshua was omniscient, but that He was not. That is my point. Contrary to the doctrine of the trinity, Yeshua was not omniscient, and was not equal in power to the Most High El, The Father. But instead deferred to Him, and said "the Father is greater than I," yet they rule together as one word, and one YHWH Elohim in a way the world has never quite seemed to grasp. It is their great secret... they show us, and tell us, but man tends to say what he will. 

Ok. now I understand. We have two different interpretations of verse 9. I understand the "you" at the end of the verse to be the Israelites. It is God telling them through Isaiah that He told them about thing that have already happened (former things) and there are new things (coming Christ - Messiah) that he is telling them of before they happen. In this, Isaiah via Gods speaking through him is prophesying the coming of Christ, the atonement and the new covenant and that it will be to the Gentiles. I don't understand how the "you" in verse 9 could refer to Christ when all along God is speaking to the Israelites (in exile, I think) about new things (including a new covenant). That is my take on the verse.

[RevTestament]

18 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Ok. now I understand. We have two different interpretations of verse 9. I understand the "you" at the end of the verse to be the Israelites. It is God telling them through Isaiah that He told them about thing that have already happened (former things) and there are new things (coming Christ - Messiah) that he is telling them of before they happen. In this, Isaiah via Gods speaking through him is prophesying the coming of Christ, the atonement and the new covenant and that it will be to the Gentiles. I don't understand how the "you" in verse 9 could refer to Christ when all along God is speaking to the Israelites (in exile, I think) about new things (including a new covenant). That is my take on the verse.

But He is not speaking to the Israelites all along. In verse 6 He is plainly talking directly to Christ, "6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a ^acovenant of the people, for a ^blight of the ^cGentiles;"

He goes on in verse 8 to say He will only give HIs glory to His servant, Yeshua. Yeshua is His inheritor per other verses in Isaiah. To then turn around and say that He switches the "you" to the Israelites is not good grammatical interpretation. Nevertheless, the other scriptures I alluded to remain to show that Yeshua did not know all things, but that He too is following the plan of the Father, which is being revealed to Him as He goes. 

Just FYI, the first 4 dispensations are the dispensation of the covenant of the Sabbath revealed to Adam, the dispensation of the covenant of non-destruction revealed to Noah, the dispensation of the covenant of the promised land revealed to Abraham, and the dispensation of the covenant of kingship revealed to David. You may notice that each of these mark a period of a thousand years rather neatly, which pattern holds through until the covenant made with the Gentiles through Joseph Smith, which occurs nearer to the end of the sixth thousand years.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

But He is not speaking to the Israelites all along. In verse 6 He is plainly talking directly to Christ, "6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a ^acovenant of the people, for a ^blight of the ^cGentiles;"

He goes on in verse 8 to say He will only give HIs glory to His servant, Yeshua. Yeshua is His inheritor per other verses in Isaiah. To then turn around and say that He switches the "you" to the Israelites is not good grammatical interpretation. Nevertheless, the other scriptures I alluded to remain to show that Yeshua did not know all things, but that He too is following the plan of the Father, which is being revealed to Him as He goes. 

Just FYI, the first 4 dispensations are the dispensation of the covenant of the Sabbath revealed to Adam, the dispensation of the covenant of non-destruction revealed to Noah, the dispensation of the covenant of the promised land revealed to Abraham, and the dispensation of the covenant of kingship revealed to David. You may notice that each of these mark a period of a thousand years rather neatly, which pattern holds through until the covenant made with the Gentiles through Joseph Smith, which occurs nearer to the end of the sixth thousand years.

Good stuff 

Cleon Skousen?

[theplains]

On 6/20/2020 at 6:21 PM, InCognitus said:

So, based on Jesus' teaching in Matthew 25:31-46 (which is what we were talking about), I encourage you to give food to the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, provide accommodations to strangers,  provide clothing to the naked, and visits the sick and captives to accept God's gift of eternal life, so that you will be counted as one of his sheep.  Isn't that what Jesus said in his teachings there? 

I am aware of Christ's teaching about feeding the hungry, etc, and this I and many people of various faiths
do, but I was putting extra focus on one specific thing he said - that his sheep inherit eternal life.  The goats
do not.

Do you believe the LDS Church's definition that eternal life = exaltation?

Edited June 23, 2020 by theplains
added extra question

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, theplains said:

I am aware of Christ's teaching about feeding the hungry, etc, and this I and many people of various faiths
do, but I was putting extra focus on one specific thing he said - that his sheep inherit eternal life.  The goats
do not.

Do you believe the LDS Church's definition that eternal life = exaltation?

Yes, so even the goats go to what they think of as "heaven".

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, RevTestament said:

But He is not speaking to the Israelites all along. In verse 6 He is plainly talking directly to Christ, "6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a ^acovenant of the people, for a ^blight of the ^cGentiles;"

He goes on in verse 8 to say He will only give HIs glory to His servant, Yeshua. Yeshua is His inheritor per other verses in Isaiah. To then turn around and say that He switches the "you" to the Israelites is not good grammatical interpretation. Nevertheless, the other scriptures I alluded to remain to show that Yeshua did not know all things, but that He too is following the plan of the Father, which is being revealed to Him as He goes. 

Just FYI, the first 4 dispensations are the dispensation of the covenant of the Sabbath revealed to Adam, the dispensation of the covenant of non-destruction revealed to Noah, the dispensation of the covenant of the promised land revealed to Abraham, and the dispensation of the covenant of kingship revealed to David. You may notice that each of these mark a period of a thousand years rather neatly, which pattern holds through until the covenant made with the Gentiles through Joseph Smith, which occurs nearer to the end of the sixth thousand years.

Not challenging you: I simply don't understand . . . . Why would God the Father speak to God the Son through a human mediator like Isaiah, who then publishes the conversation to the entire body of the Israelites? I have a difficult time understanding that. I think that is what you are suggesting. Are there other instances in the Bible of the Godhead speaking to each other via human prophets? Why wouldn't they have a direct conversation?

[InCognitus]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/20/2020 at 3:21 PM, InCognitus said:

So, based on Jesus' teaching in Matthew 25:31-46 (which is what we were talking about), I encourage you to give food to the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, provide accommodations to strangers,  provide clothing to the naked, and visits the sick and captives to accept God's gift of eternal life, so that you will be counted as one of his sheep.  Isn't that what Jesus said in his teachings there? 

I am aware of Christ's teaching about feeding the hungry, etc, and this I and many people of various faiths
do, but I was putting extra focus on one specific thing he said - that his sheep inherit eternal life.  The goats
do not.

I'm glad you are aware of those teachings, but do you believe those teachings as essential to understand how one attains eternal life, or not?  I'd like to get your answer to that question.  Jesus seemed to think it was important.

According to the post I was responding to last time, you said the following:

On 6/20/2020 at 11:53 AM, theplains said:

Salvation = eternal life; a gift of God based on faith. I don't believe in the LDS definition of eternal life (exaltation to godhood).
I don't believe that eternal life is earned based on obedience to commandments and performing temple ordinances.

In your view do you see the difference between being a sheep or a goat having anything to do with what the individual did?

13 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe the LDS Church's definition that eternal life = exaltation?

Yes, exaltation is at one end of the scale in the parable (on the right) and the sons of perdition are at the other end of the scale (on the left).  And as Jesus taught elsewhere, there are degrees of judgment in between those two extremes. 

[RevTestament]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Good stuff 

Cleon Skousen?

Are you asking if I got this from Cleon? No. This came through my own research and revelation. If you are speaking directly about the dispensations, I will add that the keys of the dispensations have been held by Michael.

If you are speaking of my ideas about the nature of the Godhead and their supposed omniscience, that has been the result of a life long endeavor to understand God. This started with struggling to understand the teachings of the trinity as a Baptist youth. It seemed to me that Yeshua just said too many things that didn't comport with the teachings about the trinity. When some LDS missionaries were invited to teach us, I found their teachings to be scriptural and to make sense. I became very excited that the Church was the true Church, and eventually joined. Since that time I have striven to understand the atonement, and other things about the nature of God. I will say this became greatly accelerated about 20 years ago. For me it has been like fitting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together. I get ideas, pray about them, study the scriptures, and receive revelation. When I accept that, it seems I get more. I research that and learn its scriptural nature, and then I get more. Since I love to learn, this has been an interesting journey to say the least. It now feels like I see most of the picture, but there is more to learn. Yeshua's teachings can be very subtle, and His teachings usually allude to some scripture. For instance what does He mean when He says I will return in this generation? Is He speaking in usual human terms or is He making some kind of allusion to the generations of the earth in Genesis 1? I believe it's the latter. 

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Not challenging you: I simply don't understand . . . . Why would God the Father speak to God the Son through a human mediator like Isaiah, who then publishes the conversation to the entire body of the Israelites? I have a difficult time understanding that. I think that is what you are suggesting. Are there other instances in the Bible of the Godhead speaking to each other via human prophets? Why wouldn't they have a direct conversation?

Because all their conversations and teachings come to us through prophets. There are many instances of these conversations. For example, "the Lord said to my Lord, sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Another example that world has not understood is reported as "the Lord has said unto me, thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee."

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Are you asking if I got this from Cleon? No. This came through my own research and revelation. If you are speaking directly about the dispensations, I will add that the keys of the dispensations have been held by Michael.

If you are speaking of my ideas about the nature of the Godhead and their supposed omniscience, that has been the result of a life long endeavor to understand God. This started with struggling to understand the teachings of the trinity as a Baptist youth. It seemed to me that Yeshua just said too many things that didn't comport with the teachings about the trinity. When some LDS missionaries were invited to teach us, I found their teachings to be scriptural and to make sense. I became very excited that the Church was the true Church, and eventually joined. Since that time I have striven to understand the atonement, and other things about the nature of God. I will say this became greatly accelerated about 20 years ago. For me it has been like fitting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together. I get ideas, pray about them, study the scriptures, and receive revelation. When I accept that, it seems I get more. I research that and learn its scriptural nature, and then I get more. Since I love to learn, this has been an interesting journey to say the least. It now feels like I see most of the picture, but there is more to learn. Yeshua's teachings can be very subtle, and His teachings usually allude to some scripture. For instance what does He mean when He says I will return in this generation? Is He speaking in usual human terms or is He making some kind of allusion to the generations of the earth in Genesis 1? I believe it's the latter. 

Thanks, very interesting ideas! I simply mentioned Skousen because I knew of his books in the Thousand years series

[Navidad]

18 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Because all their conversations and teachings come to us through prophets. There are many instances of these conversations. For example, "the Lord said to my Lord, sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Another example that world has not understood is reported as "the Lord has said unto me, thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee."

Hi, real quick - not wanting to hijack the thread. I just think you confusing a prophet reporting on a conversation between the members of the Godhead and having the members of the Godhead communicating between themselves via a prophet. That is not a distinction without a difference. Their conversations and dialogue come to us via prophets, not through prophets. The President has a conversation with another world leader and a reporter tells us about it is different than a president talking to another world leader through a reporter. The prophets are reporters, not intermediaries.

[mfbukowski]

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi, real quick - not wanting to hijack the thread. I just think you confusing a prophet reporting on a conversation between the members of the Godhead and having the members of the Godhead communicating between themselves via a prophet. That is not a distinction without a difference. Their conversations and dialogue come to us via prophets, not through prophets. The President has a conversation with another world leader and a reporter tells us about it is different than a president talking to another world leader through a reporter. The prophets are reporters, not intermediaries.

Since the Godhead is of one mind, and so far above us in intelligence that we cannot even imagine how they "think" or "communicate"- if those words even apply to what happens between them- I think that neither alternative makes much sense.

It is not a "distinction without a difference" as much as really a false dichotomy- neither of the two analogies really capture "what is happening".   Perhaps these instances are more like parables than anything else.

I think in these cases it is simply God's way of teaching us some doctrinal point as if they were one of us- since of course there is some sense in our doctrine that they ARE, as perhaps Einstein might describe some property of the universe to a pre-schooler.

Surely the Master Teacher knows how to teach his babies through stories they will understand, simply because they could never possibly comprehend what is "really going on".

 

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks, very interesting ideas! I simply mentioned Skousen because I knew of his books in the Thousand years series

You know I have never really looked at those. My father-in-law used to have the first three, but I've never really looked at them. Archaeology has progressed so much since then, that it has made them dated. but if they are anything like The Living Christ, they will still be worth the perusal. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You know I have never really looked at those. My father-in-law used to have the first three, but I've never really looked at them. Archaeology has progressed so much since then, that it has made them dated. but if they are anything like The Living Christ, they will still be worth the perusal. 

They aren’t. I read them when I was about 10, 12 years old...because that was the level they were written at imo. I ripped through them. Kind of like potato chips. When I went back to them later...so much speculation presented as fact.  And not in depth grounded speculation. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Calm

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi, real quick - not wanting to hijack the thread. I just think you confusing a prophet reporting on a conversation between the members of the Godhead and having the members of the Godhead communicating between themselves via a prophet. That is not a distinction without a difference. Their conversations and dialogue come to us via prophets, not through prophets. The President has a conversation with another world leader and a reporter tells us about it is different than a president talking to another world leader through a reporter. The prophets are reporters, not intermediaries.

I don't really see an important distinction between a prophet being told what they said, and giving us the quote - "reporting" as you say, and members of the Godhead communicating between themselves via a prophet. I can't really think of an example of the latter. They seem to be one way conversations throughout scripture. Can you think of an example of the Son responding? I mean we have some of His prayers to the Father, but that is not like a complete open communication. 

The reason I brought it up is because I believe the Son shows He is not omnipotent. But that is not the only problem I have with the doctrines of the trinity. I believe them to actually be contrary to Christ's inheritance, and I don't wish to work against HIm. I'm not saying they are scripturally antichrist, but I wish to help Him get His inheritance - not hinder it. The doctrine of the trinity says that the Son is not the Father, and that He is unchanging. Therefore, He must be the Son forevermore. But Isaiah tell us in 9:6 that He shall be called the eternal Father. That's his inheritance - to inherit the government of the Father. But the doctrine of the trinity with its interpretation of the unchanging nature of God, gets in the way of the Son changing.  Inheriting a new title or name, etc. I interpret unchanging to mean He does not change in righteousness, but is steadfast and reliable, but scripture indicates Christ changes. What was He before He was begotten in covenant as the Son? This goes back to creation of the Nicene Creed. Hebrews says He inherited a name before all others. That's not change? Being called the Father is not change? Inheriting the government of the Father is not change? He showed us the way to the holiest of all, but man says no. I don't need to follow and try to be like Him - I just want His "free gift" of salvation. Do you think that is all Christ is about? Handing out free gifts? Anyway I bring this up, because I believe the doctrines of the trinity work against the inheritance of Christ, which is why He told Joseph Smith that the creeds are an abomination. "Orthodox" get upset about that, but if you are Christ, do you want to be the Son forever? Or do you want someone to honor and recognize your inheritance as the Father? Does He bring a law to the isles or just free gifts? Bear in mind there can be no sin without law. Anyway these are some of the reasons I rejected the doctrines of the trinity long ago. They make the Son eternally unbegotten, by refusing to recognize His beginning as the Son in covenant with the Father. The contrary teachings just go on. As i have said, I am a creature of scripture, and this is what has compelled me to follow Christ rather than men. I mean no offense to you whatsoever, but I am just trying to help you understand me better.

Edited June 25, 2020 by RevTestament

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

You know I have never really looked at those. My father-in-law used to have the first three, but I've never really looked at them. Archaeology has progressed so much since then, that it has made them dated. but if they are anything like The Living Christ, they will still be worth the perusal. 

I bought one soon how do you feel after joining the church. They certainly were not what I was looking for, but I always wondered if there was more there than I was seeing.

 

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't really see an important distinction between a prophet being told what they said, and giving us the quote - "reporting" as you say, and members of the Godhead communicating between themselves via a prophet. I can't really think of an example of the latter. They seem to be one way conversations throughout scripture. Can you think of an example of the Son responding? I mean we have some of His prayers to the Father, but that is not like a complete open communication. 

The reason I brought it up is because I believe the Son shows He is not omnipotent. But that is not the only problem I have with the doctrines of the trinity. I believe them to actually be contrary to Christ's inheritance, and I don't wish to work against HIm. I'm not saying they are scripturally antichrist, but I wish to help Him get His inheritance - not hinder it. The doctrine of the trinity says that the Son is not the Father, and that He is unchanging. Therefore, He must be the Son forevermore. But Isaiah tell us in 9:6 that He shall be called the eternal Father. That's his inheritance - to inherit the government of the Father. But the doctrine of the trinity with its interpretation of the unchanging nature of God, gets in the way of the Son changing.  Inheriting a new title or name, etc. I interpret unchanging to mean He does not change in righteousness, but is steadfast and reliable, but scripture indicates Christ changes. What was He before He was begotten in covenant as the Son? This goes back to creation of the Nicene Creed. Hebrews says He inherited a name before all others. That's not change? Being called the Father is not change? Inheriting the government of the Father is not change? He showed us the way to the holiest of all, but man says no. I don't need to follow and try to be like Him - I just want His "free gift" of salvation. Do you think that is all Christ is about? Handing out free gifts? Anyway I bring this up, because I believe the doctrines of the trinity work against the inheritance of Christ, which is why He told Joseph Smith that the creeds are an abomination. "Orthodox" get upset about that, but if you are Christ, do you want to be the Son forever? Or do you want someone to honor and recognize your inheritance as the Father? Does He bring a law to the isles or just free gifts? Bear in mind there can be no sin without law. Anyway these are some of the reasons I rejected the doctrines of the trinity long ago. They make the Son eternally unbegotten, by refusing to recognize His beginning as the Son in covenant with the Father. The contrary teachings just go on. As i have said, I am a creature of scripture, and this is what has compelled me to follow Christ rather than men. I mean no offense to you whatsoever, but I am just trying to help you understand me better.

Wonderful, but you brought up the trinity, I didn't. I used the LDS accepted term of the Godhead. There are so many different and distinct view of the meaning of the trinity within non-LDS Christianity. That is not a debate I care to have. Not everything goes back to either the trinity or the creeds.

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wonderful, but you brought up the trinity, I didn't. I used the LDS accepted term of the Godhead. There are so many different and distinct view of the meaning of the trinity within non-LDS Christianity. That is not a debate I care to have. Not everything goes back to either the trinity or the creeds.

OK. I am just speaking more about my own personal journey, and my issues with the "orthodox" view of the Godhead. I really don't know yours, but was just trying to explain my own issues with the traditional views. I certainly do not presume to tell you what to believe about God, however, I am somewhat familiar with the Mennonites, and I do not share all their beliefs. Nevertheless, I certainly respect their ways and devotion to Christ. Their are many things about the Mennonites which are quite admirable. 

In order to have an intelligent conversation though, I thought it prudent to share a little of where I am coming from, so that maybe there would be enough context in which to converse about the Godhead. 

[Navidad]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

OK. I am just speaking more about my own personal journey, and my issues with the "orthodox" view of the Godhead. I really don't know yours, but was just trying to explain my own issues with the traditional views. I certainly do not presume to tell you what to believe about God, however, I am somewhat familiar with the Mennonites, and I do not share all their beliefs. Nevertheless, I certainly respect their ways and devotion to Christ. Their are many things about the Mennonites which are quite admirable. 

In order to have an intelligent conversation though, I thought it prudent to share a little of where I am coming from, so that maybe there would be enough context in which to converse about the Godhead. 

OK sounds good! 

 

[theplains]

On 6/24/2020 at 2:26 AM, InCognitus said:

I'm glad you are aware of those teachings, but do you believe those teachings as essential to understand how one attains eternal life, or not?

I believe eternal life is a gift of faith, not an earned reward for obedience to a long list of commands (John 3:15; 
Romans 4:4).  If I could earn eternal life with my works, then I could boast.

Let me try to use the example of Christmas.  When you accept a Christmas gift, do you believe you are getting
the gift because you deserved and earned it or was it nothing to do about yourself but rather solely the generosity
of the giver?

The actions of the sheep vs. the actions of the goats are just the natural outpouring of their saved or unsaved
conditions.  Good works do not cause one to become saved, but being saved through faith in Christ leads
someone to perform good works.   That is why the saved (the sheep) inherit eternal life.

 

[mfbukowski]

26 minutes ago, theplains said:

If I could earn eternal life with my works, then I could boast.

Which then would of course show that you were automatically not qualified for exaltation because you didn't understand anything about it. 

Besides the Lord has to judge you first and that doesn't happen until after you are dead.  It's hard to boast when you are dead, I understand.  No one can hear you.

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe eternal life is a gift of faith, not an earned reward for obedience to a long list of commands (John 3:15; 
Romans 4:4).  If I could earn eternal life with my works, then I could boast.

We believe eternal life is a gift too.  It’s a free gift and a promise to inherit the kind of life that God enjoys. There’s simply no way that anyone can earn it on their own accord or boast in their ability to do so because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.  Consequently the only way to receive the promised inheritance is through the grace of God, by faith in his Son Jesus Christ and through his atonement.  We are justified by grace that we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:7).

4 hours ago, theplains said:

Let me try to use the example of Christmas.  When you accept a Christmas gift, do you believe you are getting
the gift because you deserved and earned it or was it nothing to do about yourself but rather solely the generosity
of the giver?

Let's use your example of a Christmas gift. But it’s a specific gift. You are given flying instructions and a single seat jet aircraft.  It’s a really expensive gift and there’s no way you could ever earn it on your own, but it’s all yours, completely free. All you have to do is go take the classes. When you are finished with the classes, you are qualified as a pilot and are asked to train at least one more person. When you are done, then you will receive your aircraft and all your students will be given an aircraft and everything you need to fly to Tahiti. (It's a magical place).  Now what will you do with this gift? Take the classes, or sit around and imagine how lovely it will be in Tahiti?  If you do nothing with the free gift, how do you think the giver of the gift will view your reception of the gift and the generosity of the giver?

I see the nature of the gift as the primary difference between what you are saying compared to the Bible’s description of the gift.  The gift is not merely a destination, it is an opportunity to learn and develop and be of service to others, to rule and reign with God the Father and Jesus Christ, sitting with them on God’s throne (Rev 3:21), and it comes with great power to rule given by God (Rev 2:26).  It would be irresponsible for God to give his power to rule with him to someone who has no clue on how to do it.  And that’s why the scriptures talk about us reaping what we sow, connecting this with eternal life: “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Gal 6:8).  “Life eternal” is to “know” the only true God and Jesus Christ who was sent by him (John 17:3).  How do the scriptures say that a person comes to “know” him?   By keeping his commandments.  “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (see 1 John 2:3-6).

4 hours ago, theplains said:

The actions of the sheep vs. the actions of the goats are just the natural outpouring of their saved or unsaved
conditions.  Good works do not cause one to become saved, but being saved through faith in Christ leads
someone to perform good works.   That is why the saved (the sheep) inherit eternal life.

So basically, if the actions of the sheep compared to the goats are due to the outpouring of their conditions, it should follow that a person who is not performing good works is obviously not saved through faith in Christ, right? 

Edited June 27, 2020 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 6/27/2020 at 5:36 PM, InCognitus said:

We believe eternal life is a gift too.  It’s a free gift and a promise to inherit the kind of life that God enjoys. There’s simply no way that anyone can earn it on their own accord or boast in their ability to do so because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.  Consequently the only way to receive the promised inheritance is through the grace of God, by faith in his Son Jesus Christ and through his atonement.  We are justified by grace that we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:7).

It seems we differ on the moment a person inherits eternal life and what that kind of life
entails.  I believe we inherit eternal life the moment we proclaim faith in Christ's atonement
(before we die) and that eternal life is not living life as a god.

I guess we can agree to disagree here.

Let's use your example of a Christmas gift. But it’s a specific gift. You are given flying instructions and a single seat jet 
aircraft.  It’s a really expensive gift and there’s no way you could ever earn it on your own, but it’s all yours, completely 
free. All you have to do is go take the classes. When you are finished with the classes, you are qualified as a pilot and are 
asked to train at least one more person. When you are done, then you will receive your aircraft and all your students will be 
given an aircraft and everything you need to fly to Tahiti. (It's a magical place).  Now what will you do with this gift? Take 
the classes, or sit around and imagine how lovely it will be in Tahiti?  If you do nothing with the free gift, how do you think 
the giver of the gift will view your reception of the gift and the generosity of the giver?

First, I would say 'earn' is works-based way to think about it.  You cannot earn a gift. 

In my analogy, my Father has already given me the jet aircraft based on my willingness to 
accept the jet as his gift due to my faith in Him.  I don't need to take flying classes 
because he is flying the plane with me in the cockpit.  I'm just there for the ride allowing 
his will to guide the plane (my life).

I didn't do anything to get this jet aircraft. My Father offered it freely to me and I accepted
it due to my belief in him.  I invited my friends into the jet, informing them that Jesus is 
really flying the plane, and to trust him to lead them safely to Tahiti.  I tell them that I 
am not the pilot but Jesus is.  They just need to believe and board the aircraft.

Eternal life is a state of being, something that God gives us in the here and now if we allow
Jesus to live his life through us.  I believe Jesus is upset with us if we don't use the unmerited 
talents and unmerited blessings he had given us to bless others.

At this moment, I re-ask a previous question.

When you accept a Christmas gift (from a stranger or someone you know), do you believe you are 
getting the gift because you deserved and earned it or was it nothing to do about yourself but 
rather solely the generosity of the giver?

“Life eternal” is to “know” the only true God and Jesus Christ who was sent by him (John 17:3).  How do the scriptures 
say that a person comes to “know” him? By keeping his commandments.  “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his 
commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (see 1 John 2:3-6).

This is scary for I do poorly with these 2 commandments"

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 
This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as 
yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." 
 

So basically, if the actions of the sheep compared to the goats are due to the outpouring of their conditions, it should 
follow that a person who is not performing good works is obviously not saved through faith in Christ, right? 

Yes. Good works are a sign of a saved person.

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.  For you 
did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the 
Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba! Father!  The Spirit himself bears witness 
with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and 
fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified 
with him." 

Are you led by the Spirit of God (thereby a son of God, an heir)?

Galatians 3:26-27,29 says, "... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if you are Christ's, 
then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

Galatians 4:4-7 says, "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born 
of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might 
receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into 
our hearts, crying, Abba! Father!  So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, 
then an heir through God." 

Are you a son of God (thereby an heir)?

[rodheadlee]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

It seems we differ on the moment a person inherits eternal life and what that kind of life
entails.  I believe we inherit eternal life the moment we proclaim faith in Christ's atonement
(before we die) and that eternal life is not living life as a god.

I guess we can agree to disagree here.

 

 

First, I would say 'earn' is works-based way to think about it.  You cannot earn a gift. 

In my analogy, my Father has already given me the jet aircraft based on my willingness to 
accept the jet as his gift due to my faith in Him.  I don't need to take flying classes 
because he is flying the plane with me in the cockpit.  I'm just there for the ride allowing 
his will to guide the plane (my life).

I didn't do anything to get this jet aircraft. My Father offered it freely to me and I accepted
it due to my belief in him.  I invited my friends into the jet, informing them that Jesus is 
really flying the plane, and to trust him to lead them safely to Tahiti.  I tell them that I 
am not the pilot but Jesus is.  They just need to believe and board the aircraft.

Eternal life is a state of being, something that God gives us in the here and now if we allow
Jesus to live his life through us.  I believe Jesus is upset with us if we don't use the unmerited 
talents and unmerited blessings he had given us to bless others.

At this moment, I re-ask a previous question.

When you accept a Christmas gift (from a stranger or someone you know), do you believe you are 
getting the gift because you deserved and earned it or was it nothing to do about yourself but 
rather solely the generosity of the giver?

 

 

This is scary for I do poorly with these 2 commandments"

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 
This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as 
yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." 
 

 

 

Yes. Good works are a sign of a saved person.

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.  For you 
did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the 
Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba! Father!  The Spirit himself bears witness 
with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and 
fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified 
with him." 

Are you led by the Spirit of God (thereby a son of God, an heir)?

Galatians 3:26-27,29 says, "... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if you are Christ's, 
then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

Galatians 4:4-7 says, "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born 
of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might 
receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into 
our hearts, crying, Abba! Father!  So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, 
then an heir through God." 

Are you a son of God (thereby an heir)?

In John 14:2 Christ says" In my fathers house are many mansions" . I believe this indicates different levels of exaltation.

Quote

 

 

[InCognitus]

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

It seems we differ on the moment a person inherits eternal life and what that kind of life
entails.  I believe we inherit eternal life the moment we proclaim faith in Christ's atonement
(before we die)

Scripture may say we “have eternal life” in the present tense, but that would be the same thing as me saying that I have received the Tahiti package deal in my prior analogy.  But we aren’t in Tahiti yet.  We have been given the means to get to that point but we must prepare ourselves and abide in the constraints of the agreement until the appointed time of departure.  Scripture tells us that being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise is the “earnest” of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph 1:13-14).  It’s a down payment, but not the end result.

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

and that eternal life is not living life as a god.

Who is it that gets to sit with God in his throne, as it says in Rev 3:21?  What kind of life is that?   Who gets to share in God’s power, as it says in Rev 2:26?   Why does Jesus cause specific people to bow down and worship before the feet of other people, as it says in Rev 3:8-9?  I don’t know what you call that, but that sure sounds like exalted individuals to me.

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

 

Quote

Let's use your example of a Christmas gift. But it’s a specific gift. You are given flying instructions and a single seat jet aircraft.  It’s a really expensive gift and there’s no way you could ever earn it on your own, but it’s all yours, completely free. All you have to do is go take the classes. When you are finished with the classes, you are qualified as a pilot and are asked to train at least one more person. When you are done, then you will receive your aircraft and all your students will be given an aircraft and everything you need to fly to Tahiti. (It's a magical place).  Now what will you do with this gift? Take the classes, or sit around and imagine how lovely it will be in Tahiti?  If you do nothing with the free gift, how do you think the giver of the gift will view your reception of the gift and the generosity of the giver?

First, I would say 'earn' is works-based way to think about it.  You cannot earn a gift. 

That was my point.  I was using “earn” in the context of trying to obtain whatever it is you are receiving in some other way than it being gifted to you.  If someone gave you a car as a gift, it is a gift.  But lacking a wealthy gift giver, you could find other ways to earn the money to buy your own car.  That’s the works-based way to obtain a car.  But it’s impossible to do that with salvation and eternal life.  A person can’t earn salvation or eternal life by their works alone because all have sinned.   You can’t do anything to eliminate sin without the atonement of Jesus Christ.   

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

In my analogy, my Father has already given me the jet aircraft based on my willingness to 
accept the jet as his gift due to my faith in Him.  I don't need to take flying classes 
because he is flying the plane with me in the cockpit.  I'm just there for the ride allowing 
his will to guide the plane (my life).

I didn't do anything to get this jet aircraft. My Father offered it freely to me and I accepted
it due to my belief in him.  I invited my friends into the jet, informing them that Jesus is 
really flying the plane, and to trust him to lead them safely to Tahiti.  I tell them that I 
am not the pilot but Jesus is.  They just need to believe and board the aircraft.

But your totally passive approach to getting on an aircraft and going along for the ride flies in the face (pun intended) of a multitude of Bible verses that contradict the idea of sitting back and doing nothing and receiving eternal life.  In your view, is Jesus going to be checking everyone’s ticket before they board the plane, just to see if they had given food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, provided accommodations to strangers, clothing to the naked, and visited the sick and prisoners?  Remember, there’s a “no goats allowed” sign at the gate (not even for an emotional support animal).  

Biblically speaking, some preparation for the “flight” is expected.  The preparation is not for earning the gift, but it is to use the gift for its intended purpose, to learn and grow and develop and be of service to others.  That’s why in my analogy you received a free aircraft, a free pilot’s license through the completion of flight instructions, and free fuel and directions to Tahiti.  Jesus is the aircraft:  He takes you there.  He is the fuel, and he even provides autopilot.  But he does expect you to receive some pilot training and for you to train and support others or he wouldn’t have given us parables like the sheep and the goats.  Being of service to others isn’t for you to earn the gift, it is to use the gift to be a light unto others and faithfully represent the gift giver by letting his light shine through you, and demonstrate that you can responsibly handle what you will be entrusted with.  If you do nothing in response to receiving the gift, you are in essence telling the gift giver that you don’t care for his gift.  It’s like receiving another tie for father’s day and sticking it in the closet and never wearing it.  You are not using it for its intended purpose.

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

Eternal life is a state of being, something that God gives us in the here and now if we allow
Jesus to live his life through us.  I believe Jesus is upset with us if we don't use the unmerited 
talents and unmerited blessings he had given us to bless others.

You say God “gives” us this gift “if we allow Jesus to live his life through us”.  That’s a conditional statement based on something you have to do:  Allow Jesus to live his life through us.  How exactly do you see yourself doing that?

You also say that Jesus is upset with people if they don’t use what he’s given them.  This is my point too. Will he be upset with people enough to throw them off your plane if they don’t give food to the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, provide accommodations to strangers, clothing to the naked, and visits the sick and captives?   That’s not a free for all passive passenger flight being described there.  The people who fly on that plane need to be experienced service providers. 

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

At this moment, I re-ask a previous question.

When you accept a Christmas gift (from a stranger or someone you know), do you believe you are 
getting the gift because you deserved and earned it or was it nothing to do about yourself but 
rather solely the generosity of the giver?

My answer to this question should have been obvious.  I think you see the gift as a free-ride passive golden ticket to heaven, and if a person needs to do anything to attain the end result promised by the gift then it’s not a free gift.  But I see the gift as something that is intended to be used here and now, and if we don’t use it we lose it.  We show our gratitude for the gift by using it.  The gift is an enabling power (through the atonement of Jesus Christ) that lifts us and sanctifies us and fills us with God’s love and the desire to share the gift in the service of others.  The gift is an eternal life changing opportunity that provides “the power to become the sons of God” (John 1:12).  The end result of the experience provided by the gift is not something that anyone could merit solely by their own works, because all have sinned.  It is truly a generous gift that nobody deserves.  But it is a gift that must be used in order to be properly received. 

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

 

Quote

“Life eternal” is to “know” the only true God and Jesus Christ who was sent by him (John 17:3).  How do the scriptures say that a person comes to “know” him? By keeping his commandments.  “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (see 1 John 2:3-6).

This is scary for I do poorly with these 2 commandments"

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 
This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as 
yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." 

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  These two just summarize all the others.  Jesus gave us several commandments.  See 1 Thessalonians 4:2-12 where Paul gives a list of some of them.

You skipped right over my reference to Galatians 6:8.  How do you understand these verses related to receiving eternal life?

Quote

 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.   For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.   And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.  (Galatians 6:7-9).

Does this sound like the passive passenger flight to eternal life like what you described? 

Paul says something similar in Romans 2:6-8:

Quote

[God] will render to every man according to his deeds:   To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:   But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

This seems clear to me:  A person who sows to the Spirit by patient continuance in well doing will receive eternal life.  And the person who sows to the flesh by being contentious and disobedient to the truth will receive wrath.

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

Quote

So basically, if the actions of the sheep compared to the goats are due to the outpouring of their conditions, it should follow that a person who is not performing good works is obviously not saved through faith in Christ, right? 

Yes. Good works are a sign of a saved person.

My question was not, what is the sign of a saved person.   I will rephrase the question.  If a person is not performing good works does that mean they are not saved through faith in Christ?

On 7/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, theplains said:

Are you a son of God (thereby an heir)?

You quoted Romans 8:13-17, but the preceding two verses are essential to Paul’s point about how to know if we are sons of God:

Quote

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.   For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.  (Romans 8:12-13)

This is just another conditional statement based on what we “do”.  It’s not a passive situation that just happens through us as we go along for the ride. 

We show our love for God by using his free gift to return to him and receive the inheritance he has promised to us.