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Co-vid 19: What Is and Isn't Known, Discussion and Debate


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Actually did find an article with a bit more. The 3$ one is solely cost of production.

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Officials from AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson said they would sell their vaccines at the cost of production, at least until the novel coronavirus pandemic subsides. Moderna Inc. and Merck & Co. executives said they would set prices exceeding their manufacturing costs.

An executive from Pfizer, which has said it expects to make a profit from a successful Covid-19 vaccine, suggested the company wouldn’t charge too much for the vaccine it is developing with partner BioNTech SE, saying the price would reflect the “extraordinary times” of the pandemic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/pharma-companies-split-on-coronavirus-vaccine-pricing-plans-11595367562

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Posted (edited)

From my app...I don’t know what it is, but I am instantly exhausted when thinking of getting links for this stuff (dealing with nasty vertigo again, have definitely proven it is mineral supplements at least...bizarre that the supplements I am trying to take to help with general dizziness do this to me), so bad habit of no links is continuing for now...

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In a multistate telephone survey of symptomatic adults who had a positive outpatient test result for SARS-CoV-2 infection, 35% had not returned to their usual state of health when interviewed 2–3 weeks after testing. Among persons aged 18–34 years with no chronic medical conditions, one in five had not returned to their usual state of health.

Thinking about it, I guess curiosity provides enough adrenaline to get me to research. Since I can see the research in my app, I am not curious any more and all that is left to push me to get links is my desire to serve. Which is pretty non existent right now. 

Edited by Calm
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This article that has a kinda-sorta political angle, so I'll remove it if Calm requests it.  Otherwise, I think it merits some attention:

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More than 600 doctors signed and sent a letter to President Trump urging him to reopen the U.S. economy, calling the coronavirus lockdowns a "mass casualty incident" with "exponentially growing health consequences."

The letter warns that tens of millions of Americans are at immediate risk of serious health concerns or death directly caused by the shutdown due to issues such as missed preventative healthcare checkups, suicide, alcoholism, drug abuse, homelessness, heart attacks, and strokes.

"We are alarmed at what appears to be the lack of consideration for the future health of our patients," the letter reads. "The downstream health effects of deteriorating a level are being massively under-estimated and under-reported. This is an order of magnitude error."

Full text of the letter:

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Dear Mr. President:

Thousands of physicians in all specialties and from all States would like to express our gratitude for your leadership. We write to you today to express our alarm over the exponentially growing negative health consequences of the national shutdown.

In medical terms, the shutdown was a mass casualty incident.

During a mass casualty incident, victims are immediately triaged to black, red, yellow, or green. The first group, triage level black, includes those who require too many resources to save during a mass crisis. The red group has severe injuries that are survivable with treatment, the yellow group has serious injuries that are not immediately life threatening, and the green group has minor injuries.

The red group receives highest priority. The next priority is to ensure that the other two groups do not deteriorate a level. Decades of research have shown that by strictly following this algorithm, we save the maximum number of lives.

Millions of Americans are already at triage level red. These include 150,000 Americans per month who would have had a new cancer detected through routine screening that hasn't happened, millions who have missed routine dental care to fix problems strongly linked to heart disease/death, and preventable cases of stroke, heart attack, and child abuse. Suicide hotline phone calls have increased 600%.

Tens of millions are at triage level yellow. Liquor sales have increased 300-600%, cigarettes sales have increased, rent has gone unpaid, family relationships have become frayed, and millions of well-child check-ups have been missed.

Hundreds of millions are at triage level green. These are people who currently are solvent, but at risk should economic conditions worsen. Poverty and financial uncertainty is closely linked to poor health.

A continued shutdown means hundreds of millions of Americans will downgrade a level. The following are real examples from our practices.

Patient E.S. is a mother with two children whose office job was reduced to part-time and whose husband was furloughed. The father is drinking more, the mother is depressed and not managing her diabetes well, and the children are barely doing any schoolwork.

Patient A.F. has chronic but previously stable health conditions. Her elective hip replacement was delayed, which caused her to become nearly sedentary, resulting in a pulmonary embolism in April.

Patient R.T. is an elderly nursing home patient, who had a small stroke in early March but was expected to make a nearly complete recovery. Since the shutdown, he has had no physical or speech therapy, and no visitors. He has lost weight, and is deteriorating rather than making progress.

Patient S.O. is a college freshman who cannot return to normal life, school, and friendships. He risks depression, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, trauma, and future financial uncertainty.

We are alarmed at what appears to be the lack of consideration for the future health of our patients. The downstream health effects of deteriorating a level are being massively under-estimated and under-reported. This is an order of magnitude error.

It is impossible to overstate the short, medium, and long-term harm to people's health with a continued shutdown. Losing a job is one of life's most stressful events, and the effect on a person's health is not lessened because it also has happened to 30 million other people. Keeping schools and universities closed is incalculably detrimental for children, teenagers, and young adults for decades to come.

The millions of casualties of a continued shutdown will be hiding in plain sight, but they will be called alcoholism, homelessness, suicide, heart attack, stroke, or kidney failure. In youths it will be called financial instability, unemployment, despair, drug addiction, unplanned pregnancies, poverty, and abuse.

Because the harm is diffuse, there are those who hold that it does not exist. We, the undersigned, know otherwise.

Please let us know if we may be of assistance.

 

I am not a healthcare provider, but the foregoing makes a lot of sense to me.

As an attorney working in real estate, I see some of the "diffuse" harm on its way to the housing sector.  The "effect" (massive numbers of foreclosures, evictions, etc.) will be fairly attenuated, in both time and reasoning, from the "cause" (extended economic lockdown).

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

This article that has a kinda-sorta political angle, so I'll remove it if Calm requests it.  Otherwise, I think it merits some attention:

I am not a healthcare provider, but the foregoing makes a lot of sense to me.

As an attorney working in real estate, I see some of the "diffuse" harm on its way to the housing sector.  The "effect" (massive numbers of foreclosures, evictions, etc.) will be fairly attenuated, in both time and reasoning, from the "cause" (extended economic lockdown).

Thanks,

-Smac

I see it as a medical concern. 

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

This article that has a kinda-sorta political angle, so I'll remove it if Calm requests it.  Otherwise, I think it merits some attention:

I am not a healthcare provider, but the foregoing makes a lot of sense to me.

As an attorney working in real estate, I see some of the "diffuse" harm on its way to the housing sector.  The "effect" (massive numbers of foreclosures, evictions, etc.) will be fairly attenuated, in both time and reasoning, from the "cause" (extended economic lockdown).

Thanks,

-Smac

I believe it is a correct assessment of the problems ahead of us due to people delaying treatment out of fear of catching the coronavirus or suffering the ancillary economic and social effects of the disease and its preventive measures.

But rather than an argument to reopen, it is an argument for other public health measures to be communicated and followed, such as: call 911 if you're [symptoms], get your children vaccinated, call [hotline] if you're in crisis, keep your appointments virtually or through whatever means your provider offers, etc.

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I believe it is a correct assessment of the problems ahead of us due to people delaying treatment out of fear of catching the coronavirus or suffering the ancillary economic and social effects of the disease and its preventive measures.

But rather than an argument to reopen, it is an argument for other public health measures to be communicated and followed, such as: call 911 if you're [symptoms], get your children vaccinated, call [hotline] if you're in crisis, keep your appointments virtually or through whatever means your provider offers, etc.

And wear masks now, wash hands etc, and practice simple social distancing as easy to implement ways that will lessen possible Covid impact of necessary work and errand running, doctors appointments, etc. 

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A group of more than 600 doctors signed it?

“Thousands of physicians in all specialties and from all States would like to express...”

Huh. Did not get the expected volume of signatures?

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From my app:

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A roundup in The New York Times on Fridayindicated that the virus is coming back in areas that seemed to have the outbreak under control, including Melbourne, Australia; Hong Kong; Tokyo; and Spain, where new cases have quadrupled.

Deaths topped 1,000 for the third day in a row. Reuters said that the number of daily COVID-19-related deaths in the country topped 1,000 for a third consecutive day on Thursday, a total that the country hasn’t seen since June 10.

Deaths....maybe due to July 4th get togethers since it has been three weeks. 

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

And wear masks now, wash hands etc, and practice simple social distancing as easy to implement ways that will lessen possible Covid impact of necessary work and errand running, doctors appointments, etc. 

I guess that doesn't go without saying :)  ... but with all the necessary COIVID-19 messaging, the other messaging needs to get through as well so the other public health problems don't continue to build up.

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16 hours ago, CV75 said:

I guess that doesn't go without saying :)  ... but with all the necessary COIVID-19 messaging, the other messaging needs to get through as well so the other public health problems don't continue to build up.

It is worth noting that annual checkups are not a worldwide thing and there is currently controversy on whether they are worth doing. After having read up on it my tentative conviction is everyone should just get bloodwork run at a clinic once a year and only do a checkup if something comes up in that. Obviously if you are actually ill or have high risk of something or whatever you probably need more.

It was a bit scary in some areas what kinds of procedures were labeled as non-essential.

Edited by The Nehor
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A comment I saw that keeps bouncing around in my brain:

"We're gonna have to retire the expression 'avoid it like the plague' because it turns out humans do not do that"

 

Wait, this may explain the problems with pornography many church members have.

"Stay away from pornography as you would avoid a serious disease." - President Gordon B. Hinckley

And they did.....

Edited by The Nehor
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6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

is worth noting that annual checkups are not a worldwide thing and there is currently controversy on whether they are worth doing.

I have not been impressed with the ones I have had lately and my GP has a good reputation for thoroughness. Basically it amounts to being sure I am up on my tests. 

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Posted (edited)

Pogi, how many cases have been traced to dentists actually?  I know it is listed in several places as high risk. I am debating whether to wait while it keeps spreading in hopes in a month or so people will be more careful or do it now before it gets worse.  I took my mom two weeks ago and while staff all wear masks, they still have lots of clients, though there are walls between each cubicle, but no open windows so it is going to be several hours worth of clients aerosols and droplets in that air, I am guessing. 
 

I really don’t want to end up with another root canal.

If someone else beside Pogi has data on this, please let me know. 
 

This says no confirmed cases as of July 6

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/07/06/886456835/the-dentist-will-see-you-now-but-should-you-go

Edited by Calm
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An example of how covid spreads:

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-07-25/these-elite-contact-tracers-show-the-world-how-to-beat-covid-19?in_source=amp_trending_now_3
 

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That exhaustive and meticulous investigation strategy paid off when investigators were able to trace the warehouse outbreak after following a flareup at nightclubs in the trendy Itaewon neighborhood, said Kwon, who investigated the MERS outbreak and was in Rio de Janeiro to investigate a possible outbreak of the Zika virus during the 2016 Olympics.

The CDC discovered that a nightclub visitor who was a private tutor spread the virus to one of his students. The student, who was unaware of the infection, used a coin-operated karaoke room, transmitting the virus to a taxi-driver singing in an adjoining room.

The taxi-driver also worked as a part-time photographer and took photos of a birthday party at a buffet restaurant in the area where the distribution center is located.

Through surveillance footage and mobile phone records, investigators contacted everyone who had been at the restaurant around the time of the birthday party. Among those who were infected at the restaurant was a woman who had worked for a day at the warehouse.

 

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Found an interesting piece on some Sikh doctors making the hard choice to trim their beards so they can wear masks to help with the pandemic which is contrasted with an Ohio lawmaker who is ostensibly Christian ranting about how he is made in the image of God and covering his face dishonors God.....somehow. One compromises on a central tenet of their faith to answer what they believe to be a more important objective while another is making up theological garbage to justify performative defiance.

There has been some new studies showing the possibility that Covid can damage testicular function based off autopsies of deceased patients and possibly could even cause sterility in some cases. Some patients had traces of the virus in their reproductive system as well. There is a possibility it could be transmitted sexually but that is generally considered to be improbable and the reality is if you are with a lover you are more almost certainly more likely to catch it from their breath. This is still VERY MUCH a work in progress and might end up being nothing. The story started with a dubious article in China from a dubious source who encouraged those who had it to get tested for reproductive health back in March but more studies have shown evidence of a possible link from more respectable sources.

There is an element of dark humor in this. If it were proved true it might be one of the few threats that could get through hype and misinformation to a lot of guys. It also helps with that Isaiah scripture that came up a few days back. Maybe seven women to one men not because all the men were dead but because most were infertile. Guess I better tighten up my quarantine so I can help repopulate the earth. ;) 

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I saw an article about the Sikh doctors awhile back. There is something very moving in their sacrifice for me. A kind of humility as well as willingness to put others first...seeing the God in others perhaps rather than  within themselves as more to be honored. 

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Posted (edited)

There has been another video going around misusing studies of masks, here is a fact-check article explaining the issues with it.  Posting this mostly as an example of what red flags you might want to beware of in anything that appears to be off mainstream medicine...not saying this means automatically dismiss it, rather doublecheck if it is accurately portraying info or not:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/video-misrepresents-the-science-behind-face-masks/

 

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After listing the papers, Swann says: “All of these are RTCs, randomized controlled tests, that are essentially set up to determine whether or not these N95 respirator masks help to prevent the spread of viruses in this setting, and all of these studies found that they do not.”

Not only is it wrong to say they are all RTCs, or randomized clinical trials — as we said, five of them are reviews of those types of studies — it’s also wrong to characterize their findings that way.

One of the studies and two of the reviews he cites looked at how N95 masks compared to surgical masks in protecting health care workers from getting sick, and the rest of them, similarly, mostly examined how masks generally performed in protecting health care workers from disease.

It’s important to note that nearly all of the studies covered in the reviews were dealing with the use of masks by health care workers, who have more exposure to infected patients than the general public. They also focused on protection from infection, not source control.

Swann then claimed: “In the 2019 study, there was no significant difference by wearing N95 respirator masks. Happened again in 2020.”

But the 2019 study looked at the effect of N95 respirators compared to surgical masks to prevent health care workers from getting the flu and “other viral respiratory infections in geographically diverse, high-exposure, outpatient settings.” It did not examine the use of masks as source control for containing the spread of a virus in the general population. It also didn’t include a group of study subjects who didn’t wear masks at all, so the outcomes of those who wore surgical masks or N95 respirators can’t be compared to outcomes for non-mask wearers.

The 2020 “study” is actually a review that includes the 2019 study along with five other similar studies, looking largely at the effect of masks in protecting health care workers from getting sick.

That review included only one study that wasn’t focused on health care workers. Published in 2009, that study looked at the use of masks in households with a sick child and found that if masks aren’t used regularly and correctly, they won’t be effective in controlling the spread of seasonal viruses. “However,” the study found, “during a severe pandemic when use of face masks might be greater, pandemic transmission in households could be reduced.”



 

Edited by Calm
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no conspiracy theories allowed on this thread. Either put up the actual studies they reference instead or don’t post them please. 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Islander, breitbart is not a reliable source of medical info. It is primarily a political news/opinion operation, so is not appropriate for this thread. If there is medical info in the video you see as valuable, please cite the studies they reference instead. 

I made it through the first 11 minutes.  There is not much of value in there.  Mostly a bunch of "doctors" (not specializing in public health or infectious disease) claiming that we don't need to wear masks because there is a cure. 

Here are some quotes that raised my eyebrows:

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Kids are not passing it on to their parents.

Total BS.  I have seen kids pass this to their parent over and over and over again.  Child gets infected at daycare or babysitter -> whole family gets infected.  It happens all the time!  If this doctor is teaching that teachers and parents are not going to get infected when school opens up, then he is spreading lies.  I am not arguing that we shouldn't open schools, I am simply arguing against this nonsense claim.

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"You don't need masks, there is a cure".

???

Throw prevention out the window, I guess.  And no, there is no "cure".  There are medical treatments that can reduce the severity of morbidity in some, but no cure that will keep everyone from dying. 

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I tell all of you doctors who are sitting down and watching American's die, you are like the good Natzi's, the good Germans, who watch Jews getting killed and don't speak up"

Tell us what you really think.

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All of you doctor's waiting for data - if 6 months down the line you come to find out that this data shows that this medication works...you want a double blind study when people are dying?  It's unethical"

It is unethical to base your medical practice on reliable data?  Where do they find these people?

This lady is actually pushing hydroxychloroquine for prevention and telling us that it is unethical to wait for reliable data before we do so.  Wow.

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"No way I can treat 350 patients and counting and nobody is dead".  

I have had more Covid patients than this doctor and have not had a single one die yet either. Not surprising at all, actually.   None of them have been treated with hydroxychloroquine either.  Should I rely on my anecdotal evidence and ignore the bigger picture of data regarding this disease?

It is scary when doctors rely on their own anecdotal evidence/experience and tell us that we are unethical for relying on more reliable/larger data.

 

Edited by pogi
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39 minutes ago, Islander said:

It was a news confere. Did you listen to the physicians? The fact that the social media outlets are censoring information doesn't tell you anything?

I listened to the 11 minute mark, I couldn't make it past the second doctor.  Social media outlets censoring dangerous ("you don't need masks" and "waiting for data...is unethical") and false ("we have a cure" and "kids are not passing it to their parents") information doesn't surprise me. 

Edited by pogi
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2 hours ago, Islander said:

It was a news confere. Did you listen to the physicians? The fact that the social media outlets are censoring information doesn't tell you anything? The fact that the two largest studies claiming that hydroxycloroqiine was not effective in prophylactic for covid-19  were retracted doesn't signal to your intellect that there is something seriously wrong with how and why information flow is being manipulated? 

I just thought that someone would be interested in what's beyond the headlines when it comes to COVID-19. Also given the fact that "medical information" has been politicized. 

One of the doctors in that video, Stella Immanuel, believes this:

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Some of Immanuel’s sermons posted to her website have strange medical claims, including one in which she claims that certain medical issues like endometriosis, cysts, infertility and impotence are the result of sex with “spirit husbands” and “spirit wives,” which Immanuel described as having sex in dreams with witches and demons.

“We call them all kinds of names —endometriosis, we call them molar pregnancies, we call them fibroids, we call them cysts, but most of them are evil deposits from the spirit husband,” she said.

I don't think I'd take a doctor seriously about much of anything medically who believes that ovarian cysts are caused by sperm ("evil deposits") from demons who you have sex with in your dreams...

Edited by MiserereNobis
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44 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

One of the doctors in that video, Stella Immanuel, believes this:

I don't think I'd take a doctor seriously about much of anything medically who believes that ovarian cysts are caused by sperm ("evil deposits") from demons who you have sex with in your dreams...

It is making so much more sense why she kept dissing "fake doctors" who rely on "data".  Data is the enemy to her beliefs.

Edited by pogi
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A study published on the psychology of mask wearing I found interesting:

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/30/17667

As an add to the testicular thing I mentioned I have been following blood clotting for a few months and it is starting to solidify. The disease causes a lot of blood clotting (in virtually every organ including the brain and heart) and autopsies of the deceased have found it in very unexpected places that seem to be unrelated to the primary symptoms of the disease. It is now hypothesized by many that the clotting may be the primary cause of death for those that are young and do not have comorbid conditions die from the disease. The more worrying element is that it is not clear how quickly or even if this damage will be repaired. With repeated cases of the disease cropping up we may end up with a dengue fever effect where the first case is not bad and the second is worse and eventually a case could kill you from the cumulative damage. Still not settled but the evidence is worrying. Studies are underway with larger sample sizes. Hopefully it turns out the samples so far just had disproportionate damage but that does not look hopeful. Some survivors are reporting diminished quality of life and this could be the cause. Hopefully more autopsies and studies of patients can shed more light on this. I hope this turns out to be nothing. If immunity only lasts months and it has a cumulative effect and this disease does become endemic then the herd immunity approach amounts to being in a death cult.

This blood clotting effect is also causing huge problems for those with Parkinson's. A rapidly acceleration in symptoms could be a sign of Covid. I have heard rumblings that some covid research may help come up with a cure for Parkinson's but nothing solid yet sadly.

Some good news though. This whole thing has put a huge shot in the arm to vaccine research. The adenovirus vaccine delivery if it can be made to work could be a gigantic game changer. Due to how it works it could theoretically lead to a universal flu vaccine (possibly even adding in common cold viruses), a long sought for malaria vaccine, and (less likely) even an HIV vaccine. The delivery system would also be easily transported to even remote areas with relative ease compared to some current vaccines. Still not enough to celebrate but it looks hopeful. It would take years before a universal flu vaccine would save more lives than we are losing now but it would eventually. It will probably be years though before any of this pans out.

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Total BS.  I have seen kids pass this to their parent over and over and over again.  Child gets infected at daycare or babysitter -> whole family gets infected.  It happens all the time!  If you think that teachers and parents are not going to get infected when school opens up, you are spreading lies.  I am not arguing that we shouldn't open schools, I am simply arguing against this nonsense claim.

This is such a ridiculously common problem. If you tell some people that anything is "less risky" it seems to flip a switch that goes to "no risk". Hence young people thinking they are immune, that kids cannot spread it, that you are completely safe at 6 feet away or if you are outside, etc.

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32 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

One of the doctors in that video, Stella Immanuel, believes this:

I don't think I'd take a doctor seriously about much of anything medically who believes that ovarian cysts are caused by sperm ("evil deposits") from demons who you have sex with in your dreams...

As someone who has had erotic dreams about demons I hope you are right.

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