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Co-vid 19: What Is and Isn't Known, Discussion and Debate


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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  So apparently there's a rumor going around that wearing masks lowers oxygen saturation in the blood.  Hadn't heard that.  Anyway...

Thanks,

-Smac

 

What is interesting about this "test" or experiment, is that I give more weight to what Calm pointed about masks and Doctor performing surgery - Not because it was posted by Calm, but that what was pointed out makes sense. The video I have trouble accepting as not manipulated in some way because there is just seems so much misinformation and no context was given - for example what is the machine, how soon would it detect a drop in oxygen levels, how much residual oxygen is in the persons blood, did the person "spike" their oxygen level prior to the experiment.  Also very few seem interested in frank discussions about because any discussion can only be "You have to wear one 100% of time, no matter what, otherwise you are selfish and inhumane" or "There is no purpose every for a mask". And in my experience people have seemed to accept that misinformation is acceptable if it leads to the desired result. 

Edited by provoman
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56 minutes ago, provoman said:

 

What is interesting about this "test" or experiment, is that I give more weight to what Calm pointed about masks and Doctor performing surgery - Not because it was posted by Calm, but that what was pointed out makes sense. The video I have trouble accepting as not manipulated in some way because there is just seems so much misinformation and no context was given - for example what is the machine, how soon would it detect a drop in oxygen levels, how much residual oxygen is in the persons blood, did the person "spike" their oxygen level prior to the experiment.  Also very few seem interested in frank discussions about because any discussion can only be "You have to wear one 100% of time, no matter what, otherwise you are selfish and inhumane" or "There is no purpose every for a mask". And in my experience people have seemed to accept that misinformation is acceptable if it leads to the desired result. 

I can't see how there's not some impact on oxygen, given how hard it can be to walk and a talk at the same time with some masks on.  I struggle to see it as being a problem when you are holding still but doing an activity and breathing in one can feel dicey sometimes.

The other day I was walking briskly through Lowes with my mask on when I remembered that I needed to stop into the installation desk and find out why my storm door hadn't been installed yet.  Everything was going fine (no problem walking and breathing normally to that point) until I stopped moving and tried to talk to the guy at the desk.  At that point I realized that that wasn't going to happen; my body was trying breathe more due to the recent exertion and trying to breath more while also talking was impossible while I had the mask on.  I had to just stand there breathing for a few minutes before I got to the point where breathing and talking were possible.  Probably partly because the mask that I have (which was sent to me by the state of Utah) suctions to your nose if you inhale too deeply.

I'm not the most fit person in the world but I walk 3 miles every morning in the foothills of Layton next to HWY 89 (for those who know the area, it's very hilly) and it's not difficult.  So I know that I'm not so out of shape that that was the problem.

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12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I can't see how there's not some impact on oxygen, given how hard it can be to walk and a talk at the same time with some masks on.  I struggle to see it as being a problem when you are holding still but doing an activity and breathing in one can feel dicey sometimes.

The other day I was walking briskly through Lowes with my mask on when I remembered that I needed to stop into the installation desk and find out why my storm door hadn't been installed yet.  Everything was going fine (no problem walking and breathing normally to that point) until I stopped moving and tried to talk to the guy at the desk.  At that point I realized that that wasn't going to happen; my body was trying breathe more due to the recent exertion and trying to breath more while also talking was impossible while I had the mask on.  I had to just stand there breathing for a few minutes before I got to the point where breathing and talking were possible.  Probably partly because the mask that I have (which was sent to me by the state of Utah) suctions to your nose if you inhale too deeply.

I'm not the most fit person in the world but I walk 3 miles every morning in the foothills of Layton next to HWY 89 (for those who know the area, it's very hilly) and it's not difficult.  So I know that I'm not so out of shape that that was the problem.

I don't live too far away, I know that area well, very hilly WTG!

I've only worn two different masks so far. And I noticed those blue kind that you see a lot of and that are often handed out seem worse than the cloth two layer homemade one that my friend made is much better for me. 

I think the biggest part is getting use to the mask, our bodies and our psyche!  

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3 hours ago, pogi said:

It is so ironic that people who claim that medical experts are not willing to have frank discussions do nothing but make speculative guesses without providing any frank evidence to discuss. 

Speaking of misinformation, who is this majority of public health experts that say that you have to wear a mask 100% of the time, no matter what?  Does that include driving in your car alone, or outside in a public park away from other people?  Instead of making accusations of deception, with a doctor (or pretend doctor) manipulating a video to make it look like masks do not deplete oxygen, why don't you show many any evidence that masks actually do deplete oxygen?  You are not being frank.  You are making baseless accusations and generating needless suspicion around masks that only hinders our progress on Covid prevention.  What is your evidence to disbelieve this guy?  You don't even know what the machine is, so why the instant doubt? (It is a pulse oximeter machine.  It detects changes in oxygen levels within second.  I tested this in nursing school by hyperventilating on one.  It spikes almost instantly and drops back down to normal fairly rapidly after that.)

1st bold...I did not say "majority of public health experts".  In the discussion groups I have been in, there are two camp "You selfish jerk for not wearing a mask, even in situations where the WHO, CDC, etc state a mask is unnecessary; because wearing a mask is about everyone not you, so always wear a mask when you leave your house, no matter what".  Over the past weeks I have been attacked online for challenging such demands.

The other camp is "no masks ever"

To the remainder of what I hope is an unintended attack on me.   There is not context, no context at all, none, zero. I am not a oxygen blood level expert, I do not know what that machine does. And quite frankly, the first time I saw that video nothing indicated that the person was a Dr. To be honest, it look like a janitor or assistant that snuck into a room and was just messing around with the machine. 

Now had the video started with "This is X machine. It measures oxygen levels in blood. A drop in oxygen is detected almost immediately"  etc etc ....yet the person did not provide any context to the viewer. 

Also, as I stated Calm posts about masks about and oxygen levels was more believable, because it just makes sense..... it masks depleted oxygen, surgeons could not engage in hours long procedures.  Show me a video about something that 98% of the human population is unfamiliar....yeah there are going to be LOTS  questions from people.

 

But yes, would a Dr. produce a video for the world see, that if faked could not so easily destroy his credibility and license...not likely but not unheard of.

Edited by provoman
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11 hours ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  So apparently there's a rumor going around that wearing masks lowers oxygen saturation in the blood.  Hadn't heard that.  Anyway...

Thanks,

-Smac

Brilliant video. 
 

If people are actually nervous and not just looking for excuses, pulse oximeters are about 60$ iirc and not a bad thing imo to have because of a less common symptom of Covid called hidden or silent hypoxia that if I understand correctly might be able to actually cause brain or other organ damage. 
 

Rather ironic if they are avoiding something that could prevent the very thing they fear. 

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/silent-hypoxia

We have a couple in the house for fun (I was experimenting to see if different diets could drop my pulse rate, it did about 15-20 beats, my husband otoh is low and was trying to ensure he got in the target range for exercise) and found out they are very reassuring during panic and anxiety attacks when I and my daughter feel we are starving for oxygen...but we are not. They are good for practicing relaxation techniques as well since you can practice slowing down your pulse. 

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10 hours ago, provoman said:

 

What is interesting about this "test" or experiment, is that I give more weight to what Calm pointed about masks and Doctor performing surgery - Not because it was posted by Calm, but that what was pointed out makes sense. The video I have trouble accepting as not manipulated in some way because there is just seems so much misinformation and no context was given - for example what is the machine, how soon would it detect a drop in oxygen levels, how much residual oxygen is in the persons blood, did the person "spike" their oxygen level prior to the experiment.  Also very few seem interested in frank discussions about because any discussion can only be "You have to wear one 100% of time, no matter what, otherwise you are selfish and inhumane" or "There is no purpose every for a mask". And in my experience people have seemed to accept that misinformation is acceptable if it leads to the desired result. 

I guess you would have to spend some time in hospitals to recognize the machine, which gives instant, constant  readings.  Most recently Mom was hooked up to one and set off the alarm when she got low, so I had her do a couple of slow, deep breaths and she shot up above 94% again within a few seconds.

I have tested myself over time wearing a mask with my pulse oximeter. No changes. 
 

Tacenda, that is what you could do with your relatives. Buy a pulse oximeter and have them try with it on and off. Sometimes you need to keep your hand steady, not lay on it where it might cut into circulation, or relax the arm rather than holding it up...at least for the pulse, can’t remember if that makes a difference for oxygen saturation....but overall much, much easier than blood pressure testing. 

Edited by Calm
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9 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not the most fit person in the world but I walk 3 miles every morning in the foothills of Layton next to HWY 89 (for those who know the area, it's very hilly) and it's not difficult.  So I know that I'm not so out of shape that that was the problem.

It could be more psychological than actual though. Seriously there are times I could have sworn I was dying of high altitude sickness when visiting my mom in Pagosa Springs and oxygen levels were just fine. 

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Not sure this got posted, includes the interesting (for me) case of two symptomatic hairdressers who wore masks and did not infect any also masked clients, but had several family members get infected (I assume they didn’t wear masks at home).

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

——

I can so understand the frustration over the media’s messed up, inconsistent reporting. I just read one report saying Redfield said 2-4 months of mask wearing would control Covid and now I am reading this:

Quote

Dr. Robert R. Redfield, the director of the C.D.C., said in an interview with the Journal of the American Medical Association on Tuesday that if all Americans embraced rigorous mask wearing, the country could control the virus within one to two months.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/us/coronavirus-masks.amp.html

Here is the actual interview, I am shutting down so someone else needs to see what he actually said  

 

Edited by Calm
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Possible alternative for those who can’t take vaccines. I wonder if antivaxxers are okay with these, anyone know?

https://www.devex.com/news/devexplains-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-for-covid-19-97708

Quote

Nick Cammack, lead of the COVID-19 Therapeutics Accelerator at Wellcome, told Devex that the interest in the therapy for COVID-19 “is predicated on the direct specificity for the virus and the known safety of monoclonal antibody therapies in general.”

This therapy also has a potentially shorter timeline from development, testing to approval compared to chemical-based drugs, Francis Collins, director of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, wrote in a blog post in May.

Apparently antibody treatments are what helped most with Ebola. Their limitation is the life of the antibody though, a month or so. So not a long term solution. 
 

The more I read, the more I wonder if this is going to be a major moment of advancement in the study and treatment of infectious diseases. Lots of funding going to quick solutions with current technology and the most excitement it seems is because of a relatively recent development with RNA vaccines which cut the time to develop way done.  We are so lucky imo that we had those two? years rather than it still being an idea on the drawing board...I guess computer screen is probably more likely these days. 

 I imagine when the virus is controlled, there will be significant funding of more innovative technology. For instance antibody treatment is through injections into bloodstream and there is concern with Covid that such won’t get to the lungs which are the most affected. Perhaps someone might start researching a way to get antibodies into lungs, maybe through inhaling? I have no clue if this is feasible, but there are so many things possible these days.  I am thinking of a drug I have come across recently that is micro coated for extended release.  The push to combat the opioid epidemic resulted in new technology. It is in the form of microspheres that won’t dissolve in water so useless for injecting and can’t be crushed further, thus preventing intentional overdoses through crushing. I have also heard of several methods of targeting or delivery of drugs over the years to cut down in toxicity/side effects. Funding is always an issue in these discussions (I encounter them through entrepreneurs talking with my husband about their ideas) and I imagine the experience with Covid is going to lead to a lot more angel investors for the industry. 
 

Better, quicker treatments for infectious diseases would be a huge boon for the economy with less loss in productivity for those looking at that angle. 
 

With the antivaxxers...if they don’t want vaccines, they should be funding alternatives, scientifically based as opposed to essential oil like approaches. Wouldn’t it be a kick if a major breakthrough came about because of them similar to how treatments to replace blood transfusions were in response in part to objections.  Innovations such as using liquids that can carry oxygen and substitute for blood where blood can’t be self transfused (in some cancer patients, blood may carry tumor cells for example) at least short term are currently being researched.

I forget how fascinating medical research is if I step away for awhile from checking things out due to frustration nothing is really happening in my areas of need.

Edited by Calm
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The one time I believe wearing a face mask caused oxygen deprivation is when I was outside and sweating. This was a N95 mask. I believe the mask became saturated with my sweat, and it became exceedingly difficult to even suck air through the mask. I became too short of breath, and had to take it off.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

Possible alternative for those who can’t take vaccines. I wonder if antivaxxers are okay with these, anyone know?

https://www.devex.com/news/devexplains-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-for-covid-19-97708

Apparently antibody treatments are what helped most with Ebola. Their limitation is the life of the antibody though, a month or so. So not a long term solution. 
 

The more I read, the more I wonder if this is going to be a major moment of advancement in the study and treatment of infectious diseases. Lots of funding going to quick solutions with current technology and the most excitement it seems is because of a relatively recent development with RNA vaccines which cut the time to develop way done.  We are so lucky imo that we had those two? years rather than it still being an idea on the drawing board...I guess computer screen is probably more likely these days. 

 I imagine when the virus is controlled, there will be significant funding of more innovative technology. For instance antibody treatment is through injections into bloodstream and there is concern with Covid that such won’t get to the lungs which are the most affected. Perhaps someone might start researching a way to get antibodies into lungs, maybe through inhaling? I have no clue if this is feasible, but there are so many things possible these days.  I am thinking of a drug I have come across recently that is micro coated for extended release.  The push to combat the opioid epidemic resulted in new technology. It is in the form of microspheres that won’t dissolve in water so useless for injecting and can’t be crushed further, thus preventing intentional overdoses through crushing. I have also heard of several methods of targeting or delivery of drugs over the years to cut down in toxicity/side effects. Funding is always an issue in these discussions (I encounter them through entrepreneurs talking with my husband about their ideas) and I imagine the experience with Covid is going to lead to a lot more angel investors for the industry. 
 

Better, quicker treatments for infectious diseases would be a huge boon for the economy with less loss in productivity for those looking at that angle. 
 

With the antivaxxers...if they don’t want vaccines, they should be funding alternatives, scientifically based as opposed to essential oil like approaches. Wouldn’t it be a kick if a major breakthrough came about because of them similar to how treatments to replace blood transfusions were in response in part to objections.  Innovations such as using liquids that can carry oxygen and substitute for blood where blood can’t be self transfused (in some cancer patients, blood may carry tumor cells for example) at least short term are currently being researched.

I forget how fascinating medical research is if I step away for awhile from checking things out due to frustration nothing is really happening in my areas of need.

Any old-school international missionaries remember the “peanut butter“ shot in the rear-end every few months?  That was immunoglobulin (antibodies) for Hep-A prevention.  That is what we used before the longer-lasting and highly effective vaccine came out.  Antibody treatment/prophylaxis has been around for quite awhile.    We also use antibody treatments for several diseases.  I could see it as a big advancement in the treatment of Covid if it is shown to be effective and safe, but in terms of prevention, there are definitely limitations  with how short lived it is.  It wouldn’t be realistic to use as a global prevention.

I’m not certain, but I bet most antivaxers would have a problem with it in shot form, as they have preservatives which they are against.

Edited by pogi
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On 7/17/2020 at 6:10 PM, Calm said:

It could be more psychological than actual though. Seriously there are times I could have sworn I was dying of high altitude sickness when visiting my mom in Pagosa Springs and oxygen levels were just fine. 

I wonder about it.  My trainer is coming to our house to train me.  We are her only clients right now and she stays home except for groceries and outdoor activities because her husband is immunocompromised as well. We all wear masks.

I felt I had a harder time breathing with it.  I think there are a couple of things going on with me.  

A year or so ago I talked with my trainer when we were doing a test to figure out my max heart rate.  As we start to need more oxygen we naturally breath out our mouths.  Because of doing yoga for years I often start exercising breathing out my nose. During the test she had me start breathing out of my mouth when it became uncomfortable breathing out my nose. 

I find that I naturally breath out of my mouth when wearing a mask, but if I actually think about it I can breath out of my nose without being uncomfortable. There is just some for me, personally, that has me opening my mouth.  I am a mouth breather for a lot of other things, like sleep, too so this doesn't surprise me.

But when I was breathing harder during exercise I was wondering about all this.  I know I make more noise breathing with the mask on.  That could cause some psychological "evidence" to having a harder time getting oxygen.  

The heat is definitely a think.  I have a harder time breathing in heat, but couldn't tell you why.  I feel hotter with the mask.  Though when I am outside swimming with the heat I haven't noticed it.  Our pool was only 95 degrees yesterday so maybe since it is not quite body temp that makes a difference?

I have a pulse oximeter too though just a finger one.  I'm thinking of wearing it for my next training session on Tuesday and see what happens - if it doesn't become a problem wearing it.

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On 7/17/2020 at 7:03 PM, Calm said:

I guess you would have to spend some time in hospitals to recognize the machine, which gives instant, constant  readings.  Most recently Mom was hooked up to one and set off the alarm when she got low, so I had her do a couple of slow, deep breaths and she shot up above 94% again within a few seconds.

I have tested myself over time wearing a mask with my pulse oximeter. No changes. 
 

Tacenda, that is what you could do with your relatives. Buy a pulse oximeter and have them try with it on and off. Sometimes you need to keep your hand steady, not lay on it where it might cut into circulation, or relax the arm rather than holding it up...at least for the pulse, can’t remember if that makes a difference for oxygen saturation....but overall much, much easier than blood pressure testing. 

I saw a person post a video about this, I think I'll share on FB. Thanks!

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I have recently seen claims that Covid numbers are inflated due to hospitals getting more money for Covid patients. A doctor friend has pointed out it is doctors who determine cause of death and they wouldn’t benefit from hospitals being paid generally speaking (I can see administrators bribing them as a possibility, but there are huge penalties if caught; likely not worth it).  Also hospitals get paid only for Medicare patients, and by treatment, rather than death label...they can’t just label a person in the hospital as Covid no matter what procedure and get paid more. And putting Covid on the death certificate if they weren’t treated for Covid wouldn’t make any difference in payment. They have to be treating for Covid. Would be malpractice and therefore high penalties if caught to put someone on a ventilator who didn’t need to, for example.  Have to be a huge amount of fraud to make it worth the risk, which means very likely to get caught and lose more...so not worth the risk after all, imo.

Article is older as claims came out in April, but still applies I believe. I doubt any major payment changes occurred without notice. 
 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

Here is one from May that says pretty much the same thing:

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/20/coronavirus-covid-medicare-payments-hospitals/

Edited by Calm
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Quote

In the first few months of the pandemic, there was scientific uncertainty about the usefulness of public masking. Conflicting guidance was given by several official sources1–3.

There is now convincing evidence from multiple controlled experiments4–6 and field observations7–11that wearing masks reduces the transmission of COVID-19 for healthcare workers and the public. Most of this evidence is COVID-19 specific and has emerged in the past few months1,7.

Masks prevent infected people from spreading the virus to others by trapping the respiratory droplets (tiny moisture particles) that are produced when we cough, speak, and breathe10,12,13. Cloth masks can stop 90% or more of the dispersal of droplets carrying the virus12,14. There is some evidence that cloth masks also protect the wearer from infection7,8, though this is less certain.

Masks are highly safe, with only minor and uncommon side effects1,15,16. In addition to many medical studies, public masking has been proven safe among children, adults, and the elderly in cultures where this practice has long been common10,17. However, some sensitive individuals should not wear masks, such as those with compromised respiratory systems18 and individuals who cannot remove or adjust their own masks (children under 2 and people with severe disabilities)13.

Researchers from hospitals, universities, the private sector, and government agencies have concluded that masks could be one of the most powerful and cost-effective tools to stop COVID-19 and accelerate the economic recovery1,4,5,9,10,17. There is universal agreement, however, that masking alone will not be enough to stop the pandemic. Masking is most effective when combined with physical distancing, frequent handwashing, rapid testing, and coordinated contact tracing1,7,19.

https://pws.byu.edu/covid-19-and-masks?fbclid=IwAR34pYravLHeTfDP-qGvfHEZFKj8PC1TSK9oLvBroYb7-N4ZpPCSGMq4GzA

This is the executive summary, they do a deep dive as well.

Has a section on common questions.

Quote

After infection, most people experience an incubation period where there are no symptoms—typically lasting 5 days, but sometimes lasting 15 days 1,5,35. Infected individuals are most contagious during the day before first symptoms and in the few days after onset, meaning that people who feel completely healthy can spread the virus to loved ones and strangers 9,29,36. Up to one in three COVID-19 carriers show no symptoms at all (asymptomatic) 11,37, though they can still spread the virus 1,38. It is estimated that half of all transmissions occur from individuals not showing symptoms 1,39.

Quote

The most recent analysis by Goldman Sachs suggests that increasing masking by 25 percentage points from current levels would cut the COVID-19 growth rate by 3-fold and prevent the need for a second round of economic shutdowns 17. They predict this would result in an economic benefit of approximately $1 trillion. Another study found that 80% of the population wearing cloth masks when in public would be more effective at stopping the virus than a strict lockdown of the whole population 50. There is nearly universal consensus that masks could be one of the most powerful and cost-effective tools to stop COVID-19 and accelerate the economic recovery 1,4,5,9,10,17.

 

Edited by Calm
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I will dig up a link later, from my app:

Quote

Older children spread virus just as well as adults, research says. A large new study of nearly 65,000 in South Korea, published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), indicates that young people between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do. Children under 10 were roughly half as likely as adults to spread the virus to others.

 

 

 

Quote

One-third of children tested in Florida are positive. The Sun Sentinel reported this week that nearly 1 in 3 children tested for the new coronavirus in Florida have been positive. Alina Alonso, MD, Palm Beach County’s health department director, warned county commissioners that the disease could cause lifelong damage even for children with mild illness.

Babies are not immune. Reporting in the Texas Tribune on Saturday showed that 85 babies under the age on one year old in Nueces County tested positive for COVID-19 since mid-March.

 

Edited by Calm
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Some good news, no new deaths in Ireland. 
 

Bad news:

Quote

For first time, world records one million coronavirus cases in 100 hours: Reuters tally

 

Edited by Calm
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34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I wonder if the babies had symptoms?

It is extremely rare that I see a positive baby who does not have symptoms, for the simple reason that parents typically don't to put their babies (and themselves) through the hassle/irritation of testing their baby if they are not symptomatic.  This doesn't mean that asymptomatic babies are uncommon, it just means that they are not typically tested if they are not symptomatic. 

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