Co-vid 19: What Is and Isn't Known, Discussion and Debate

[Calm]

So threads about one aspect of reaction to the virus are getting derailed by myself and others who are concerned and curious about getting the best info for ourselves and others and I am thinking that is very frustrating for the OPs.  

So I am starting a thread that questions which arise from a thread or elsewhere can be discussed.  I am opened to anything Covid being discussed here as long as it isn't taking the original topic with it, think more this is where rabbit trails become full fledged freeways.

What info we absorb about Covid will affect every part of our lives these days, including how we participate in church, so I see it as related and we have an interesting group of people with experiences in healthcare, government, as well as those making a personal study of the topic, so why not take advantage of this.

----

Came across an article suggesting there are versions of long term Covid, lasting one month to three or possibly more...

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/

Is this accurate reporting and if so, is this something few will have to worry about or is it a growing concern?  Does it have implications for infections resurfacing?

Quote

Some have been diagnosed through tests, while others, like LeClerc, have been told by their doctors that they almost certainly have COVID-19. Still, many long-haulers have faced disbelief from friends and medical professionals because they don’t conform to the typical profile of the disease. People have questioned how they could possibly be so sick for so long, or whether they’re just stressed or anxious. “It feels like no one understands,” said Chloe Kaplan from Washington, D.C., who works in education and is on day 78. “I don’t think people are aware of the middle ground, where it knocks you off your feet for weeks, and you neither die nor have a mild case.”

The notion that most cases are mild and brief bolsters the belief that only the sick and elderly need isolate themselves, and that everyone else can get infected and be done with it. “It establishes a framework in which ‘not hiding’ from the disease looks a manageable and sensible undertaking,” writes Felicity Callard, a geographer at the University of Glasgow, who is on day 77. As the pandemic discourse turns to talk of a second wave, long-haulers who are still grappling with the consequences of the first wave are frustrated. “I’ve been very concerned by friends and family who just aren’t taking this seriously because they think you’re either asymptomatic or dead,” said Hannah Davis, an artist from New York City, who is on day 71. “This middle ground has been hellish.”

As someone who has a chronic disorder doctors can barely help with and solutions are a guessing game and a daughter with one which has caused her 30 year life to be extremely limited in many ways (still waiting for her to get her GED, no college, no dating, no social interaction save a few internet friends and limited family members; half the time she tries to try a new treatment, it ends up sabotaging her for a year or two), the potential for another life altering chronic disease without answers is intimidating.  I know too many people suffering in frustration already.  To have those numbers grow....life and death are hard enough to deal with, limbo....please no.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

So threads about one aspect of reaction to the virus are getting derailed by myself and others who are concerned and curious about getting the best info for ourselves and others and I am thinking that is very frustrating for the OPs.  

So I am starting a thread that questions which arise from a thread or elsewhere can be discussed.  I am opened to anything Covid being discussed here as long as it isn't taking the original topic with it, think more this is where rabbit trails become full fledged freeways.

----

Came across an article suggesting there are versions of long term Covid, lasting one month to three or possibly more...

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/

Is this accurate reporting and if so, is this something few will have to worry about or is it a growing concern?  Does it have implications for infections resurfacing?

As someone who has a chronic disorder doctors can barely help with and solutions are a guessing game and a daughter with one which has caused her 30 year life to be extremely limited in many ways (still waiting for her to get her GED, no college, no dating, no social interaction save a few internet friends and limited family members; half the time she tries to try a new treatment, it ends up sabotaging her for a year or two), the potential for another life altering chronic disease without answers is intimidating.  I know too many people suffering in frustration already.  To have those numbers grow....life and death are hard enough to deal with, limbo....please no.

Calm, would you mind giving her diagnosis? If not no problem. I'm one of those that likes to search things like this out. Or provide help from what I've heard helps. I know you've mentioned some specifics, and my brain cannot remember. 

[nuclearfuels]

 

Trust the science, not the media.

Big Pharma's grip on US healthcare and Rx treats symptoms at best not causes. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=COVID+infection+rate+by+age+cohort&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS866US866&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj0-Lzo7fTpAhUoRTABHe5ZAdgQ_AUoAXoECA0QAw&biw=1536&bih=754#imgrc=lHGJZg5IA7gR5M

[Calm]

Tacenda...Combo of things...major things for her are diabetes type 1 (on pump, can't handle the real time sensors unfortunately), thyroid disorder (looks like it is going to have to be killed so it will stop dropping low than going high and making her constantly nauseous and unable to control her sugars in the process...then there is the whole issue of her doctor worrying she is going to have a heart attack, do beta blockers), and moderate restless legs syndrome that becomes severe when sugars roller coaster (so very poor healing a pond a future of added problems most likely) added to a naturally shy temperament creates (in part to the disruption of multiple hormones that affect body and mood as well as overstimulated even just at home, so being in crowds is out of the question, and finally distrust that her body will go out of whack and destroy the fun others are having as we have to take her home, etc) in addition to the physical issues, severe anxiety and depression (the last was helped by ECT treatment and we are hoping to try ketamine if her thyroid ever stabilizes enough to make it worth it).

Fun, fun, fun combo.  I got it easy compared to her.

I can tell not enough sleep last night, I get so obsessed with details, lo.  Hope that makes sense.  PM me if it doesn't and I will try and be clearer.  I need to try for a few more hours now.  Night.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Rx treats symptoms at best not causes. 

Vaccines treat causes....but yeah, I so know the drugs treat symptoms issues...and not that well lots of the times.

Can you flesh out more what your point is?  I am not following.  If just dropping an FYI, great!, just mark so I know no response is needed.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Calm

[nuclearfuels]

My suggestion is to trust science, trust the benefits of healthy diets, exercise, calming music, affirmations in addition to using Rx that you verify doesnt' ahve worse side effects than the symptoms it claims to treat

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

My suggestion is to trust science, trust the benefits of healthy diets, exercise, calming music, affirmations in addition to using Rx that you verify doesnt' ahve worse side effects than the symptoms it claims to treat

Amen on that...unfortunately for many with chronic disorders, they are unusually sensitive to side effects so even drugs considered very low risk can cause issues...or they have to jump through endless hoops trying drugs that damage them before being allowed to use the ones they know work with least side effects.  Then there is having the energy to shop and cook good food (and don't forget food sensitivity) and exercise and having doctors who know what exercises work best for their conditions.  Sometimes even relaxation practices are out of the question (that's where "restless" comes into play, mind says time to relax, body says no and creates weird sensations to ensure it wins).  Calming music isn't very calming when one can somehow sense ants dancing all over one's skin.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Calm

[Islander]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, would you mind giving her diagnosis? If not no problem. I'm one of those that likes to search things like this out. Or provide help from what I've heard helps. I know you've mentioned some specifics, and my brain cannot remember. 

Although, for all practical purposes, COVID-19 is the latest viral strand to cause concern, from an epidemiological standpoint there is very little new. Some 80,000 people died of the flu in the 2018-2019 season (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/press-conference-2018-19.htm). Most people had no clue, the media did not bother with it and you saw nobody walking around with gloves or masks.

The mortality rate of COVID-19, rate of infection and propagation, symptomatology and the course of the illness is very similar to influenza (https://now.tufts.edu/articles/how-does-covid-19-compare-flu). The at-risk factors and population are very similar.  In sum, COVID 19 is here to stay and although a vaccine may be in the works and soon available, we are ALL going to get it at some point in time,, just like the flu. Some with natural immunity and strong immune defense will be oblivious to it. The rest will experience mild to moderate flu-like symptoms. The treatment and prophylactic measures are the same.  

What we know as a fact is that the dreaded wave of dead bodies on the streets did not materialize and the healthcare system was not overwhelmed. Estimates of the demise of up to 20% of the US population were greatly exaggerated. 

 

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Tacenda...Combo of things...major things for her are diabetes type 1 (on pump, can't handle the real time sensors unfortunately), thyroid disorder (looks like it is going to have to be killed so it will stop dropping low than going high and making her constantly nauseous and unable to control her sugars in the process...then there is the whole issue of her doctor worrying she is going to have a heart attack, do beta blockers), and moderate restless legs syndrome that becomes severe when sugars roller coaster (so very poor healing a pond a future of added problems most likely) added to a naturally shy temperament creates (in part to the disruption of multiple hormones that affect body and mood as well as overstimulated even just at home, so being in crowds is out of the question, and finally distrust that her body will go out of whack and destroy the fun others are having as we have to take her home, etc) in addition to the physical issues, severe anxiety and depression (the last was helped by ECT treatment and we are hoping to try ketamine if her thyroid ever stabilizes enough to make it worth it).

Fun, fun, fun combo.  I got it easy compared to her.

I can tell not enough sleep last night, I get so obsessed with details, lo.  Hope that makes sense.  PM me if it doesn't and I will try and be clearer.  I need to try for a few more hours now.  Night.

Thanks Calm, my heart goes out to her. It can start with just one medical condition and seem to be a domino affect, darn that thyroid! And having type 1 as a child is so difficult. I hope there are some answers soon, and that she can live a very full life and this will be a character building situation and she can break free of all that the diseases have taken or caused. I'm afraid to say what I think may help the thyroid. You already know. I didn't ask just to spout it though. Hopefully we'll have more answers to our questions for health very soon. 🤗

Edited June 9, 2020 by Tacenda

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Islander said:

Although, for all practical purposes, COVID-19 is the latest viral strand to cause concern, from an epidemiological standpoint there is very little new. 

What do you mean, "from an epidemiological standpoint there is nothing new?"  The virus itself was completely new.   

2 hours ago, Islander said:

Some 80,000 people died of the flu in the 2018-2019 season (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/press-conference-2018-19.htm). Most people had no clue, the media did not bother with it and you saw nobody walking around with gloves or masks.

You don't even understand the information you are reading.  Most recent estimates for 2018-2019 flu season are around 34,000 deaths.  The article you posted was "last reviewed: September 27, 2018" and they were discussing estimates for the previous (2017-2018) season - with a more recent updated estimate of 61,000 for that season.   Here is a MUCH more updated estimate: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html  (Page last reviewed: January 9, 2020).

We have nearly doubled the 2017-2018 season and nearly QUADRUPLED the 2018-2019 flu season with Covid already, and Covid season has just begun with numbers starting to climb across the globe (AND THAT IS WITH ALL THE SHUTDOWNS AND STRICT MEASURES WE HAVE TAKEN that we didn't take with the flu!)  Trying to compare the two as if "nothing is new" is a joke. 

Lets talk numbers when this is all said and done, shall we?  But for now, stop the fake news!  Studies are showing that Covid is killing 20 X more people/ week than flu. (again, that is with all the restrictions and precautions and contact tracing that were not taken with the flu)   

2 hours ago, Islander said:

The mortality rate of COVID-19, rate of infection and propagation, symptomatology and the course of the illness is very similar to influenza (https://now.tufts.edu/articles/how-does-covid-19-compare-flu). 

Again, outdated info from March 12, back when the virus was barely reaching the US.  From the article:  "This situation is still very unpredictable. We don’t know enough about the virus itself or how it spreads.  So the majority of the data we have on this virus and disease is still that from China".  You'll have to do better.  Covid is WAY more contagious and deadly than any recent flu outbreak.  Have you ever seen a flu bug nearly wipe out entire nursing homes (yes that is plural)?  Have you seen around 100 out of 130 singers of a choir become infected with the flu from one 2 hour rehearsal?  Give me a break.  No comparison.  Have you ever seen 30% of flu carriers be asymptomatic, spreading the bug unknown?  Is the flu contagious 2 DAYS before symptoms present?  Ummmm, nope. 

2 hours ago, Islander said:

The at-risk factors and population are very similar.  In sum, COVID 19 is here to stay and although a vaccine may be in the works and soon available, we are ALL going to get it at some point in time,, just like the flu. Some with natural immunity and strong immune defense will be oblivious to it. The rest will experience mild to moderate flu-like symptoms. The treatment and prophylactic measures are the same.  

It seems you are speaking out your other end here.  You don't know that we won't find an effective vaccine or cure that will stop it in its tracks.   "The rest will experience mild to moderate flu-like symptoms"?  You've got to be kidding me!  Is your head that deep in the sand that you are oblivious to the body bags stacking up?  

"Treatment and prophylactic measures are the same"?  Wrong again! We don't have antivirals like Tamiflu to treat Covid, nor do we have vaccines for prophylaxis.  

2 hours ago, Islander said:

What we know as a fact is that the dreaded wave of dead bodies on the streets did not materialize and the healthcare system was not overwhelmed. Estimates of the demise of up to 20% of the US population were greatly exaggerated. 

 Depends on which street you are standing on and which healthcare system.  Remember, we are just barely opening up...this is just getting started!  

What do you think are in these giant freezer trucks parked next to a New York hospital?  Have you ever seen anything like that in your lifetime for a flu season, ever, anywhere?

What do you think are in those boxes  being buried in a trench on Hart Island in the Bronx borough of New York on April 9:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-shows-giant-trench-getting-built-nyc-s-hart-island-n1181056

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by pogi

[Ahab]

I'm not a doctor, with a PhD, nor am I acting as one on the internet, but so far what I have learned about COVID19 is enough to make me want to spend as much time at home as I can. 

My wife is in the "high risk of death if she were to get it" category so I'd rather just do what I can to stay away from people unless I need to buy something from them, like food or medicine or supplies from Home Depot or JoAnn's (fabric/sewing supply store) for our home projects.  And she feels pretty much the same way.  Fortunately we have a nice home and 2 acres of property to ourselves and it's easy for us to stay busy.  I can work from home now and don;t need to commute to my job anymore, which is nice.

When "they" develop a vaccine AND a cure for this thing we may begin to venture out more, as we once did in the old days, but for now and the forseeable future, home is where we'd rather be.

We can still see and talk to other people we love via the internet.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks Calm, my heart goes out to her. It can start with just one medical condition and seem to be a domino affect, darn that thyroid! And having type 1 as a child is so difficult. I hope there are some answers soon, and that she can live a very full life and this will be a character building situation and she can break free of all that the diseases have taken or caused. I'm afraid to say what I think may help the thyroid. You already know. I didn't ask just to spout it though. Hopefully we'll have more answers to our questions for health very soon. 🤗

Thanks. I have discussed the you know what with her.   First on the list when it gets available through reliable sources and supervised by her doctors.  She is very excited about it.  Too many drugs have gone bad on her to experiment on her own.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Calm

[strappinglad]

One big problem with this covid 19 is the contradictory info from the " doctors " in the CDC and WHO . WHO just recently made an announcement and a few hours later walked it back. The public is now getting shy about all the rules and the " truth " .

[Calm]

Pogi, he didn’t say “nothing new”, but rather “there is very little new” which pretty much amounts to the same thing as far as your criticism (and thank you for putting up the more accurate info), but just saying for accuracy. 

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

One big problem with this covid 19 is the contradictory info from the " doctors " in the CDC and WHO . WHO just recently made an announcement and a few hours later walked it back. The public is now getting shy about all the rules and the " truth " .

Yes, it is very problematic imo. At this point I think it best to err on the side of caution (5 new cases in the small town next to us today) given how covid has behaved in certain places like New York and Italy....it can be difficult convincing people to sacrifice when they are losing or lost trust in those telling them to do so. 

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, it is very problematic imo. At this point I think it best to err on the side of caution (5 new cases in the small town next to us today) given how covid has behaved in certain places like New York and Italy....it can be difficult convincing people to sacrifice when they are losing or lost trust in those telling them to do so. 

There are many stories out there of the lasting affects of getting Covid-19. https://wjla.com/news/local/23-year-old-survivor-coronavirus-warning-message

I've been very bad and forgetful about being safe as far as staying home and recently my son and his wife visited. We all got together at my house as if nothing was wrong. Just now I remembered, we played "Pit", if you've played before, everyone is shouting while playing the game. Trying to trade out cards in order to have all the same. I'm worried that I shouldn't have gotten everyone together, especially when I have kids that aren't taking it seriously, and apparently not their mother. I'm ashamed that I forgot so easily.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

One big problem with this covid 19 is the contradictory info from the " doctors " in the CDC and WHO . WHO just recently made an announcement and a few hours later walked it back. The public is now getting shy about all the rules and the " truth " .

There have been some missteps (the biggest was testing at the get-go) and messaging problems for sure.  I only hope that people understand that this is all brand new and best practice is ever evolving.  Even though it feels like forever, we are only a few months into this.  While the process is not perfect, I feel it is the best hope we have when considering the alternative.

[birdgirl]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Amen on that...unfortunately for many with chronic disorders, they are unusually sensitive to side effects so even drugs considered very low risk can cause issues...or they have to jump through endless hoops trying drugs that damage them before being allowed to use the ones they know work with least side effects.  Then there is having the energy to shop and cook good food (and don't forget food sensitivity) and exercise and having doctors who know what exercises work best for their conditions.  Sometimes even relaxation practices are out of the question (that's where "restless" comes into play, mind says time to relax, body says no and creates weird sensations to ensure it wins).  Calming music isn't very calming when one can somehow sense ants dancing all over one's skin.

OM Gosh yes! My poor daughter has Juvenile Arthritis but I swear she also has Ehlers Danlos syndrome (just like her cousin). She has done Physical Therapy 3 times and all the drugs with 0 relief and they just say to keep taking more/longer. Standard of care is a progression of likely drugs. Gabapentin increasing to mega doses, muscle relaxants and then stronger ones, every antidepressant ever made, Lyrica, every anti inflammatory ever made, Methotrexate which is TERRIBLE but you have to take it first to get insurance to let you move on to Humira, Enbrel, Orencia... If it makes her sick they say take it with food or more food or at night or with protein or just keep taking it anyway until I say no more and they roll their eyes at old helicopter mom. I finally got a doctor just TODAY to agree maybe it is EDS but she doesn’t diagnose or treat it. We are experimenting with different diets but only acupuncture and myofascial massage make it bearable so far -the 2 things not covered by our insurance! And everyone suggests yoga but it is the absolute worst for her! Sorry for the off topic rant just wanted to say I hear you- chronic disorders are maddening.

Edited June 10, 2020 by birdgirl

[Islander]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

What do you mean, "from an epidemiological standpoint there is nothing new?"  The virus itself was completely new.   

You don't even understand the information you are reading.  Most recent estimates for 2018-2019 flu season are around 34,000 deaths.  The article you posted was "last reviewed: September 27, 2018" and they were discussing estimates for the previous (2017-2018) season - with a more recent updated estimate of 61,000 for that season.   Here is a MUCH more updated estimate: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html  (Page last reviewed: January 9, 2020).

We have nearly doubled the 2017-2018 season and nearly QUADRUPLED the 2018-2019 flu season with Covid already, and Covid season has just begun with numbers starting to climb across the globe (AND THAT IS WITH ALL THE SHUTDOWNS AND STRICT MEASURES WE HAVE TAKEN that we didn't take with the flu!)  Trying to compare the two as if "nothing is new" is a joke. 

Lets talk numbers when this is all said and done, shall we?  But for now, stop the fake news!  Studies are showing that Covid is killing 20 X more people/ week than flu. (again, that is with all the restrictions and precautions and contact tracing that were not taken with the flu)   

Again, outdated info from March 12, back when the virus was barely reaching the US.  From the article:  "This situation is still very unpredictable. We don’t know enough about the virus itself or how it spreads.  So the majority of the data we have on this virus and disease is still that from China".  You'll have to do better.  Covid is WAY more contagious and deadly than any recent flu outbreak.  Have you ever seen a flu bug nearly wipe out entire nursing homes (yes that is plural)?  Have you seen around 100 out of 130 singers of a choir become infected with the flu from one 2 hour rehearsal?  Give me a break.  No comparison.  Have you ever seen 30% of flu carriers be asymptomatic, spreading the bug unknown?  Is the flu contagious 2 DAYS before symptoms present?  Ummmm, nope. 

It seems you are speaking out your other end here.  You don't know that we won't find an effective vaccine or cure that will stop it in its tracks.   "The rest will experience mild to moderate flu-like symptoms"?  You've got to be kidding me!  Is your head that deep in the sand that you are oblivious to the body bags stacking up?  

"Treatment and prophylactic measures are the same"?  Wrong again! We don't have antivirals like Tamiflu to treat Covid, nor do we have vaccines for prophylaxis.  

 Depends on which street you are standing on and which healthcare system.  Remember, we are just barely opening up...this is just getting started!  

What do you think are in these giant freezer trucks parked next to a New York hospital?  Have you ever seen anything like that in your lifetime for a flu season, ever, anywhere?

What do you think are in those boxes  being buried in a trench on Hart Island in the Bronx borough of New York on April 9:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-shows-giant-trench-getting-built-nyc-s-hart-island-n1181056

 

I am traveling so my ability to edit text on my mobile device are limited. Although I posted the link to the article, you insist in ignoring the facts set forth there. Here is a copy and paste from (upto date) the John Hopkins, site:

Similarities: COVID-19 and the Flu

Symptoms

Both cause fever, cough, body aches and fatigue; sometimes vomiting and diarrhea. The full list of symptoms of COVID-19 continues to evolve as more is learned about the illness.

Can be mild or severe, even fatal in rare cases.

Can result in pneumonia.

Transmission

Both can be spread from person to person through droplets in the air from an infected person coughing, sneezing or talking.

A possible difference: COVID-19 might be spread through the airborne route (see details below under Differences).

Both can be spread by an infected person for several days before their symptoms appear.

Treatment

Neither virus is treatable with antibiotics, which only work on bacterial infections.

Both are treated by addressing symptoms, such as reducing fever. Severe cases may require hospitalization and support such as mechanical ventilation.

Prevention

Both may be prevented by frequent, thorough hand washing, coughing into the crook of your elbow, staying home when sick and limiting contact with people who are infected. Social and physical distancing can limit the spread of COVID-19

Here is the site: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu 

We know that now they attributing cause of death to COVID=19 when in fact it was not so clinically. Although the situation is still evolving, we will not know until perhaps 2021-22 what the actual tally was. Inaccurate reporting of cause of death is an issue of concern, even without the current crisis. It is getting worse. That makes the tally highly inaccurate. Here is a USA today article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/

I live in a town of 50,000 in the Mid-West. There are 39 reported deaths since January 1st. About half of those were people with pre-existing cardio-respiratory conditions. Some 34 of them were 80 years of age or older. It is the same profile as the flu. Last year 112 people died of respiratory complications associated with the the influenza virus in the county. 

In sum, you can believe what you wish. And your level of concern will depend on what your personal risks factors are. But the fact remains that from an epidemiological standpoint, it is NOT as bad as the media has portrayed the epidemic. There is no cure. A vaccine is in the works so until then, those with a compromised immune system or other risk factors should be careful. As for the rest, it will take a course similar to influenza.  Because it is a novel viral strand, the mortality among those in the high risk factor group will be higher until a vaccine is developed. Next year it will be lower and so on.until herd immunity levels are reached. 

The health sciences is my field of practice (neuro-biochem research). I care very little for the headlines. 

 

[CV75]

12 hours ago, strappinglad said:

One big problem with this covid 19 is the contradictory info from the " doctors " in the CDC and WHO . WHO just recently made an announcement and a few hours later walked it back. The public is now getting shy about all the rules and the " truth " .

I think this is an outgrowth of risk tendency and risk aversion, and we can manage whichever end of the scale we are on by picking a reliable source, understanding that this is a constantly evolving situation/science, and that the semantics of scientists and jurisdictions may run counter to ours. And human judgement in how and what to communicate to various audiences. Yes, that is a tall order!

For example, the scientists and the jurisdiction of the WHO, and its paradigm/philosoophy, is different from the CDC and a state's public health milieu. When understood (and the WHO probably shouldn't have put it out there the way they did), I think the WHO wasn't wrong per se, just communicating the narrowly-scoped data and conclusions on hand from a very different mindset than appropriate for public messaging.

Edited June 10, 2020 by CV75

[pogi]

11 hours ago, Islander said:

Similarities: COVID-19 and the Flu

I never denied that Covid symptoms can be similar to flu.  Flu is like the chicken of the infectious disease world, just about EVERY infectious disease tastes like flu in some way.  The conglomerate of symptoms is so common in the infectious disease world, they have been given a name, "flu-like symptoms."  My biggest beef with this sentence - "The mortality rate of COVID-19, rate of infection and propagation, symptomatology and the course of the illness is very similar to influenza", was not they symptomology, but was "mortality rate and infection rate".  Course of infection varies in key ways as well.

11 hours ago, Islander said:

Both cause fever, cough, body aches and fatigue; sometimes vomiting and diarrhea. The full list of symptoms of COVID-19 continues to evolve as more is learned about the illness.

Very few people in the world can profile symptomology of Covid better than me and my co-workers.  I have been eating, sleeping, drinking Covid almost since it began (working 60, 70, 80 hour weeks).  I can diagnose you over the phone by the sound of your cough.  "Sorry buddy, that is not allergies, you have Covid, go get tested and isolate."  I knew that Covid caused loss of smell and taste before it was ever published in journals or spread in the media.  I am the one who provides profiles for the disease.  It is my investigative assessment and profiling that leads to new understanding of symptomology.  Your "full list of symptoms" is sorely lacking.  No mention of Covid toes, no mention of abdominal pain, rigors, wheezing, difficulty breathing (which is different from shortness of breath), chest pain, chest tightness, not only a loss of taste but it can also cause a gross/nasty taste in your mouth, severe muscle pain (which is different from muscle aches), joint pain, bone pain, sensitive skin, painful eyes, rash (not only seen in children - likely associated with the inflammatory process), congestion, runny nose, and the more serious and concerning symptoms of dizziness, lightheadedness, confusion, and presyncope.  No mention of how the inflammatory process can effect blood vessels leading to clots and strokes, etc.  You don't see that with the flu, do you?  Young healthy kids having strokes?  

11 hours ago, Islander said:

Transmission

Both can be spread from person to person through droplets in the air from an infected person coughing, sneezing or talking.

A possible difference: COVID-19 might be spread through the airborne route (see details below under Differences).

I don't know why this is even in question any more.   Of course it is airborne through aerosols.  There is no other explanation for how we see outbreaks in call centers where over 10 ft is spaced between desks and strict hygiene and social distancing protocols are enforced, and yet most of the staff of over 100 employees become infected.   How does the majority of a choir become infected from one 2 hour session, while practicing social distancing, if it is not airborne?  There is no other explanation.  That is a BIG, BIG difference between the 2 diseases.  We simply don't see that kind of transmission with the flu.  Not even close.

11 hours ago, Islander said:

Treatment

Neither virus is treatable with antibiotics, which only work on bacterial infections.

Both are treated by addressing symptoms, such as reducing fever. Severe cases may require hospitalization and support such as mechanical ventilation.

Prevention

Both may be prevented by frequent, thorough hand washing, coughing into the crook of your elbow, staying home when sick and limiting contact with people who are infected. Social and physical distancing can limit the spread of COVID-19

 Interesting how you skipped over the part of the article that discusses the differences in treatments and prophylaxis including antivirals and vaccine (just like I said).

11 hours ago, Islander said:

We know that now they attributing cause of death to COVID=19 when in fact it was not so clinically. Although the situation is still evolving, we will not know until perhaps 2021-22 what the actual tally was. Inaccurate reporting of cause of death is an issue of concern, even without the current crisis. It is getting worse. That makes the tally highly inaccurate. Here is a USA today article.

So, your argument is that we don't really know what the true number of deaths due to Covid truly is.  It could be higher, it could be lower, therefore we should assume that it is about the same as the flu and not take any more precautions than we do with the flu?  That sounds...umm...irrational and reckless.

Trust me, I am fully aware of the difficulties in getting accurate numbers.  However, most experts I have read believe the numbers are likely low.  Please read this article:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-covid-19-deaths-are-counted1/

11 hours ago, Islander said:

I live in a town of 50,000 in the Mid-West. There are 39 reported deaths since January 1st. About half of those were people with pre-existing cardio-respiratory conditions. Some 34 of them were 80 years of age or older. It is the same profile as the flu. Last year 112 people died of respiratory complications associated with the the influenza virus in the county. 

Nice little anecdote from your small Mid-West town.  Have you ever heard of New York?  No, it is not on Mars.  Keep in mind, we are just getting started and things are just barely begining to pick up.

11 hours ago, Islander said:

The health sciences is my field of practice (neuro-biochem research). I care very little for the headlines. 

I'm not impressed. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by pogi

[longview]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

14 hours ago, strappinglad said:

One big problem with this covid 19 is the contradictory info from the " doctors " in the CDC and WHO . WHO just recently made an announcement and a few hours later walked it back. The public is now getting shy about all the rules and the " truth " .

There have been some missteps (the biggest was testing at the get-go) and messaging problems for sure.  I only hope that people understand that this is all brand new and best practice is ever evolving.  Even though it feels like forever, we are only a few months into this.  While the process is not perfect, I feel it is the best hope we have when considering the alternative.

At this point, we should NOT fear taking steps to "herd immunity."  Alternatives should include intravenous vitamin C which has proven to be a powerful antiviral and an awesome antioxidant (this has been repeatedly shown to be beneficial since 1930).  Despite the storm of propaganda against hydroxychloroquine/zinc, many prominent people are using them safely (which has been extensively prescribed for malaria and other conditions).  Vaccines should NOT be such a priority since it is not known if it will be effective or how long it will take to complete clinical trials.

BUT absolutely above all else, stop the insanity of the lock downs.  Sweden and Taiwan have proven there are better alternatives.

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, longview said:

BUT absolutely above all else, stop the insanity of the lock downs.  Sweden and Taiwan have proven there are better alternatives.

Do you think the lockdowns in New-York were uncalled for and "insane"?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, longview said:

At this point, we should NOT fear taking steps to "herd immunity."  Alternatives should include intravenous vitamin C which has proven to be a powerful antiviral and an awesome antioxidant (this has been repeatedly shown to be beneficial since 1930).  Despite the storm of propaganda against hydroxychloroquine/zinc, many prominent people are using them safely (which has been extensively prescribed for malaria and other conditions).  Vaccines should NOT be such a priority since it is not known if it will be effective or how long it will take to complete clinical trials.

We don't know If it provides long-term immunity.  I don't recommend having Covid-parties, like people did with chicken pox.  People will die.  We should avoid infection and transmission as much as possible  Please don't be promoting "herd immunity" through mass infection.  I am confused however, because on one hand you suggest that we shouldn't fear herd immunity, but on the other you recommend taking preventive measures (even though I disagree with your measures). 

Despite the storm of propaganda for chloroquine from politicians who know nothing, you don't hear much from doctors (maybe a couple here and there) because the evidence is lacking.  It is premature.  Many prominent people are using them safely, but that does not mean it is without risk for heart arrhythmia.   It is not always safe.  Not everyone tolerates it well.  Please don't recommend IV vitamin C for prevention of Covid.  Please.

Edited June 10, 2020 by pogi

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, longview said:

BUT absolutely above all else, stop the insanity of the lock downs.  Sweden and Taiwan have proven there are better alternatives.

"As of June 3rd, 4,542 people have died from Covid-19 in Sweden, a country with a population of 10 million. Neighbors Denmark, Finland and Norway - each with populations about half of Sweden’s - have recorded death tolls of 580, 321 and 237, respectively.

The number of confirmed cases in Sweden stands at 40,803 on June 3rd, between four and six times higher than neighboring countries. But, it’s likely the Swedish figure vastly undercounts the real number of infections given that the country’s testing rate is remarkably low compared to Western European countries and the U.S.

Calculated over the entire time period of the pandemic, Sweden’s death rate has been about average among Western countries, though many times higher than its Scandinavian neighbors, and also higher than the U.S.

Conspicuously, in the past week, based on a rolling seven-day average, Sweden currently has the highest per capita mortality rate in Europe, having overtaken the U.K., Italy and Belgium. In recent weeks, as deaths have decreased significantly in most other European countries, Sweden’s numbers have remained flat."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2020/05/23/swedens-gamble-on-coronavirus-has-it-paid-off/#7e2b27f22dcd