How Was Your Sacrament Ordinance Performed?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

My understanding is well ventilated is better, though being downwind of contagious person not good. AC off because lasts longer in cooler temps though. 

Ventilation is better but recirculation in an enclosed space is bad. Outdoors if the wind blows it moves new air in and disperses droplets and aerosols. In an enclosed are where the ac or heater mostly moves the same air around (though some is lost and gained) it can increase transmission. It depends a lot on where the vents are. If you have an infected person in an office right under a vent that cools a whole room others are more likely to get aerosols or droplets they have expelled instead of them falling to the ground. If the infected person is far away the risk is lessened. Most setups are not that simple though and you end up blowing the air all over the area. If you had a window open it may spread or mitigate spread depending on how close you are to the window. The six feet thing works fine for short interactions. It works less well when you are in a room all six feet apart with air circulation blowing everyone's droplets and aerosols around. You are probably safer indoors than outdoors if you are sure no one living with you has it. The health decline is probably not worth the isolation compared to the low risk of catching it if you are careful when you go hiking or jogging or whatever.

That would be my summary. We are still figuring this thing out though. There is always the chance we are making blunders due to lack of data. All we can do though is work with the data we have.

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have lots of Karens in my family and none of them behave in this fashion...usually the opposite in fact. I very much dislike using actual names for dysfunctional behaviours, etc. 

I like it because Karen is the name of one of my ex-fiancees but I will avoid it in future.

[Tacenda]

I heard that this can go on for 9 more years, covid-19. I'm seriously so done and a bit depressed about this and the economy and what new disaster will be looming around the corner. Sorry for being so dismal.

Oh, heard this one and thought it very funny.

"Gonna ask mom if that offer to slap me into next year is still on the table!".

[Calm]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I like it because Karen is the name of one of my ex-fiancees but I will avoid it in future.

I am just expressing my frustration using names as negative labels has become a fad. No need for you to stop. I need to get used to it probably. Growing up “Barbie” was used and let’s not forget “John”, so maybe not a fad, but just extended. I really liked the names Stacey and Chad and now those are ruined for me even if the ones using them have the real problems. 
 

Edit:  after reading Juliann’s comment, I changed my mind. I think and thought it is great you were willing to change in case I didn’t make that clear, but now I think good to stop because of the misogyny of the label. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Calm

[rpn]

13 hours ago, Anijen said:

 For example the sacrament will be blessed and put on separate plate and the deacons will pass them using tongs to drop in our cupped hands. Furthermore, we are instructed to bring our phones to sing the hymns with, there will be no hymnals. We are instructed to stand back from the podium and not touch the microphone or the podium at all when we bear our testimonies.

Singing and taking a communal sacrament are the biggest risk of church.   While it might not be necessary a specific place or day, individually being handed sacrament is the only way to protect from exposure to the virus by someone who doesn't even know they are shedding the virus.  If you want the sacrament then of course you have to take precautions to do it safely.   Although if everyone is wearing the mask (and not fiddling with it or touching it)  then there is some protection for talking and singing,  most congregations will ban singing altogether given how many deaths and cases have been traced to singing at church, if they want to be safe.   While probably touching the hymnbooks, doors, toilet flush handles etc, sink handles will not be enough exposure to make one sick, they might be, especially since most members won't use sanitizer when they get out of their car and won't wash their hands before taking a seat  in the chapel.   Removing anything that multiple people would touch is absolutely appropriate.   (And maybe once we get a vaccination, know more about this virus and know the actual rate of getting the disease and dying from it, we will all know we can be safe even without these safeguards.   But that time is not now.)

[pogi]

13 hours ago, Anijen said:

We are going back to church today. In my ward we have some who are very politically divided members, and they have in my view a hysteria about the safety of returning to meetings and in particularly in the manner the sacrament ordinance is performed and passed. This fear has influenced our Bishopric to instruct the priests and deacons to perform the sacrament ordinance in a safe manner, one that . However, in my opinion, goes way out of the way to assuage certain peoples safety precautions and, in my view, is so far out of the ordinary that it has become a mockery of the sacred ordinance. For example the sacrament will be blessed and put on separate plate and the deacons will pass them using tongs to drop in our cupped hands. Furthermore, we are instructed to bring our phones to sing the hymns with, there will be no hymnals. We are instructed to stand back from the podium and not touch the microphone or the podium at all when we bear our testimonies. Of course, we all will be separated in family groups in the Chapel, Gym, and Relief Society room. I support the Bishopric, but sometimes I wish they were less influenced by a few of the ward members.

I am all for safety, but this too me is extreme to the point of making a sacred ordinance second to calm a few peoples fears. Our sacrament starts at 10:00 and I am probably being just a grumpy old member... I hope that is it, but I do confess, it is more than a little bit annoying. I'll probably come back after meeting and say "never mind, my bad, it was great." It least I hope I say that.

What say you?

Using tongs while allowing the singing of hymns is like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

 

[pogi]

How many people are wearing masks in your meetings?  Our ward doesn’t meet until the end of the month.

[lets get real]

Our ward hasn't taken sacrament yet, because if they had I would have gotten an e mail , not going to church feels very weird, how long was church out during the Spanish flue I wonder. Deos any body know?

 

[Ratbag]

It's amazing just how many supposedly awake members drink the kool-aid shoveled out by the lamestream media. 

Thread banned and one post away from board banned.

[MorningStar]

At this rate, I wonder if my area will have church by Christmas. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

38 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

At this rate, I wonder if my area will have church by Christmas. 

That's currently the assumption we're working with here.

[Calm]

We have had 5 new cases this week in my small residential town  where we had 10 up till then.  The two larger, but still small towns next to us have had almost a hundred for the past month, but each went up about 15 cases this week iirc. 
 

While we travel to Provo, Orem, and Salt Lake, not as many visitors come to our areas except for state fairs and such (some specialty stores, but the ones I know do online orders as well)...which we haven’t had any so far.  I assume that slows the spread to our areas down some. 
 

I am nervous that this is the start of the main course after months of nibbling on sparse appetizers. Here’s hoping it’s a weight watchers meal rather than all you can eat Golden Corral feast. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Calm

[rpn]

9 hours ago, lets get real said:

Our ward hasn't taken sacrament yet, because if they had I would have gotten an e mail , not going to church feels very weird, how long was church out during the Spanish flue I wonder. Deos any body know?

 

A little over six months if I recall correctly.  But over two years ---there were two waves.

[rpn]

4 hours ago, Ratbag said:

It's amazing just how many supposedly awake members drink the kool-aid shoveled out by the lamestream media. 

And its amazing that anyone is totally ignoring both the known science, and the fact that we just plain don't know enough about it overall.    (Not to mention hasn't observed in their only family research how many died during 1917-1918 flu epidemic.)

[Hamba Tuhan]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am nervous that this is the start of the main course after months of nibbling on sparse appetizers.

Yeah, I'm worried about you. I note that Utah has now moved up to the 24th spot for most cases per capita in the US. It was 28th only a couple of days ago.

One of the former missionaries in our ward texted me this morning. He just graduated from BYU and wanted to know what it would take to get me to attend the big graduation bash he's planning. I reminded him that we are in the midst of a global pandemic and that international borders are closed. He actually seemed surprised. 

[Anijen]

12 hours ago, provoman said:

What was your reason for going rather than having sacrement at home?

We were given permission to have sacrament at home each Sunday by texts from the Bishop. We were not given permission last Sunday (yesterday), although he did say in his text if you feel uncomfortable please stay home. We are all healthy and active, so we attended church yesterday. It was nice.

[Anijen]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

How many people are wearing masks in your meetings?  Our ward doesn’t meet until the end of the month.

Just one older lady and the deacons who passed and the priests who blessed.

Another observation; we have these cords that cordoned off each row so that the deacons may go down each row and use the tongs that drop off the bread in your hand. I saw all four deacons use the tongs to also move these cords??? One wiped his nose after taking the bread himself while his mask was down. 

Edited to add; I sat near the back of the chapel, there could of been people in the overflow area of the gym wearing a mask, but I did not notice any. The person doing the Spanish translation also wore a mask.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Anijen

[provoman]

51 minutes ago, Anijen said:

We were given permission to have sacrament at home each Sunday by texts from the Bishop. We were not given permission last Sunday (yesterday), although he did say in his text if you feel uncomfortable please stay home. We are all healthy and active, so we attended church yesterday. It was nice.

That is interesting. At home sacrament not approved but stay home from Church if not comfortable attending. As you indicated in the opening post, there are diverse opinions about covid. 

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Ratbag said:

It's amazing just how many supposedly awake members drink the kool-aid shoveled out by the lamestream media. 

I don’t need the media to tell me how dangerous this can be, I see it everyday.  I am amazed at how many supposedly awake members dismiss our top infectious disease scientists in favor of their favorite media source, Head-in-the-sand-radio AM. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by pogi

[Amulek]

On 6/7/2020 at 7:51 AM, Anijen said:

This fear has influenced our Bishopric to instruct the priests and deacons to perform the sacrament ordinance in a safe manner, one that . However, in my opinion, goes way out of the way to assuage certain peoples safety precautions and, in my view, is so far out of the ordinary that it has become a mockery of the sacred ordinance. For example the sacrament will be blessed and put on separate plate and the deacons will pass them using tongs to drop in our cupped hands.

We are meeting this week to develop our sacrament meeting protocol. Thankfully, nobody has suggested tongs yet.

We are, however, considering the possibility of using water trays and having one piece of broken bread placed in each cup, with the cups being spaced in every other slot - just like we will be doing for the water. With a cap of 50 people to begin with though, it may be possible to spread the bread out on trays in a way that they aren't touching, so people can pick them up without digging through a mound of bread though. I guess we'll see. 

 

Quote

Furthermore, we are instructed to bring our phones to sing the hymns with, there will be no hymnals.

Storing the hymnals seems like a good idea - we'll be doing that ourselves. Electing to still sing hymns, however, seems kind of self-defeating. 

 

Quote

We are instructed to stand back from the podium and not touch the microphone or the podium at all when we bear our testimonies.

Our stake purposely waited until after fast Sunday (first week back will be this coming week) to avoid any of the logistics that might go into pulpit sanitation. 

 

Quote

Of course, we all will be separated in family groups in the Chapel, Gym, and Relief Society room. I support the Bishopric, but sometimes I wish they were less influenced by a few of the ward members.

It's motivated by love. If only 3 - 5 % of the congregation would feel better by some specific protocol being in place, should we not try to make a reasonable effort to accommodate them? There are limits, of course, but if it's something easy that doesn't distract from the sacred nature of the ordinance then why not go ahead and just do it? 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Amulek
Auto-correct adjustment.

[alter idem]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Where is the best study on this?  I am assuming the copper for four hours, cardboard for a day and something for 3 days is out of date?

I am glad to hear this as I think it is a shame libraries are closed when people have time to read. 

Our libraries are doing holds and checkouts, so we have access to it again, which is nice. 

[alter idem]

11 hours ago, rpn said:

Singing and taking a communal sacrament are the biggest risk of church.   While it might not be necessary a specific place or day, individually being handed sacrament is the only way to protect from exposure to the virus by someone who doesn't even know they are shedding the virus.  If you want the sacrament then of course you have to take precautions to do it safely.   Although if everyone is wearing the mask (and not fiddling with it or touching it)  then there is some protection for talking and singing,  most congregations will ban singing altogether given how many deaths and cases have been traced to singing at church, if they want to be safe.   While probably touching the hymnbooks, doors, toilet flush handles etc, sink handles will not be enough exposure to make one sick, they might be, especially since most members won't use sanitizer when they get out of their car and won't wash their hands before taking a seat  in the chapel.   Removing anything that multiple people would touch is absolutely appropriate.   (And maybe once we get a vaccination, know more about this virus and know the actual rate of getting the disease and dying from it, we will all know we can be safe even without these safeguards.   But that time is not now.)

For most people death isn't the concern,  I believe the virus has a 1% mortality rate; it's the high risk and elderly who should really stay home if contagion is still spiking. I don't think they should return to church unless their area has no cases, church leaders can never guarantee their safety and its unreasonable to assume they can.  For most the concern with contracting covid is being very sick, missing work and infecting others, but if they are presently healthy,  young and free of health risks, they can go back to church at this time, imo. 

Don't forget that before the shutdown it was understood that a vaccine might never be found.  That wasn't the reason for the shutdown.  The purpose was to slow the rate of active cases to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed.  This seemed to get lost somewhere along the line.

[alter idem]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

Using tongs while allowing the singing of hymns is like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

 

I guess we can use these wards to test the theories out there. If the covid cases start showing up in these wards we'll know that the virus is getting spread somehow and that singing by a congegation is the likely culprit. But, if we see no cases that can be tied to church attendance, then we'll be able to return to normal church meetings with confidence. Though I still think elderly and high risk should stay home until the infection rates die down.

[longview]

7 hours ago, Ratbag said:

It's amazing just how many supposedly awake members drink the kool-aid shoveled out by the lamestream media. 

In a previous thread many months ago there was a big discussion about the abuses of science put out by various segments of society.
In the case of global warming hysteria, the narrative was false and contrived.
In the case of transgenderism and sexual dysphoria, , the narrative was false and contrived.
In the case of evolution, the narrative was false and contrived.
In the case of public health policies (in response to the Covid-19 hysteria), the narrative was false and contrived.

Sadly, there are many more abuses of science in other areas besides those listed above.

2 hours ago, rpn said:

And its amazing that anyone is totally ignoring both the known science, and the fact that we just plain don't know enough about it overall.    (Not to mention hasn't observed in their only family research how many died during 1917-1918 flu epidemic.)

totally?  Why the absolute?  known science?  that it is mandatory to lock down businesses (especially small businesses)?  At first it was promulgated that there be a lock down for two weeks in order to flatten the curve and to give hospitals room to deal with influx of cases.  Because "the narrative" was able to keep the hysteria elevated among enough of the people, it was somehow decided by the "powers that be" to keep increasing the duration of the lock down.  We can see this in how the blue state governors (such as Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, etc) have very enthusiastically enforced draconian measures to punish mother and child for wanting to enjoy an outing at the park, a barber for opening his shop, beauty salons, and many more.  Yet at the same time they kept the abortion mills going full steam, the protests, the looting, the violence go full bore without any restraints.  All in the name of the "narrative".

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I don’t need the media to tell me how dangerous this can be, I see it everyday.  I am amazed at how many supposedly awake members dismiss our top infectious disease scientists in favor of their favorite media source, Head-in-the-sand-radio AM. 

There is "absolutely" no justification for draconian lock downs.  Their models were wrong every time.  I read of a report about two computer scientists who looked into the models.  They were outraged by the contrived nature of it.

Edited June 8, 2020 by longview

[alter idem]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

A little over six months if I recall correctly.  But over two years ---there were two waves.

They didn’t hold public meetings for a while,  but they also didn't quarantine healthy people as we have done.  Their society wouldn't have survived doing that, as there was no welfare system and the poor and lower classes would've starved to death.  The sick were quarantined, the healthy kept their routines, though taking precautions, but some couldn't do that, as there was a war going on. The war and troop movements did a lot to turn it into a pandemic as it spread aroind the world. More worldwide poverty and less medical treatments and availability contributed as well.  Businesses were not shut down.  We're in a very different time, 100 years later.