Jump to content

Vines, Branches, Citizens, and Faithful Non-members


Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Here we go again I guess.  First of all, yes I said this but it is not a quote of mfbukowski unless my name appears on it.

That is why there is a quote function here so that one cannot make annonymous quotes without people knowing where they came from, and therefore impossible to follow a conversation.  So why do you think that function exists if it is irrelevant and useless?

So you don't see the prophet encouraging us to go by the name "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"??   Odd.  Did he say we should call ourselves "Christians"??  His entire point was that we should use the proper name of the Church and not other names.

That is not my interpretation of what the prophet was teaching.  The whole point was to SEPARATE ourselves from others who follow Jesus, making us unique.

Are names used to help those who do NOT know one group from another or for the inner circle who knows the doctrine??

Because WE know we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ does not mean that others do.   Names are for OTHERS to know us by, not ourselves.

Poor analogy.

It is perfectly clear how those terms are defined- one is an "American" if one is a citizen of the USA.  

If one lives within the clear boundaries of California, one is a Californian.   

This entire discussion is about the ambiguity of the term Christian.  The term obviously does not have hard and fast definitions.

There is no comparison between finding criteria defining who a resident of California vs defining who is a "Christian" especially when one can choose that title for oneself without approval of anyone else, also shown in this thread.  :)

 

I understood what you wrote to be referring to President Nelson’s reemphasizing the importance of using the church's entire, true name and not using the popular nicknames or acronyms. But I did see that how it was written,  that might be missed. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, alter idem said:

I understood what you wrote to be referring to President Nelson’s reemphasizing the importance of using the church's entire, true name and not using the popular nicknames or acronyms. But I did see that how it was written,  that might be missed. 

Thanks. Gotta work on that 

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, alter idem said:

One person made a suggestion of how he thought God would be  able to judge all who've lived on earth.

I missed that exchange, fortunately.

Just hearing about it, I find it appalling that some could think that the organizing council if the universe would need to take time to process the judgment.

God lives in an eternal present.

Link to post
2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I simply disagree. I hope that is ok.

Sure it's ok!!

But then let's just disagree about priesthood and exclusivity and ordinances and let it go, and put it in the "just disagree" category, ok ?

You have your opinions and we have ours. I don't know why we have to keep going over this.

 

Link to post
2 hours ago, Navidad said:

One more thing, just out of curiosity. You have made the comment several times that things I say indicate that I don't "get" LDS doctrine. Well that is one reason I am here. What is it that I am missing? What am I characterizing in a wrong way?

Your insistence that we are wrong about authority  and exclusivity, and that you are right and that we "should" believe as you do.

You just can't seem to get it.

  • Like 2
Link to post
31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks. Gotta work on that 

Me too. I've taken to trying to read through what I write wach time before posting,  because I've caught so many times when what I've said could be misconstrued,  but even with that, I still miss some, because readers  find them.🙃

Link to post
2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I missed that exchange, fortunately.

Just hearing about it, I find it appalling that some could think that the organizing council if the universe would need to take time to process the judgment.

God lives in an eternal present.

As do we all.  Not one of us lives in the past or the future. I was just talking about how I think we will probably use computers to search through our church records to see who is saved. The Book of Life in print only?  No electronic format?  We have no good reason to suppose God will not let us use computers or electronic records or other forms of technology.  Like how he allowed Lehi and his family to use the Liahona.

Link to post
2 hours ago, alter idem said:

Me too. I've taken to trying to read through what I write wach time before posting,  because I've caught so many times when what I've said could be misconstrued,  but even with that, I still miss some, because readers  find them.🙃

That's an inherent problem of using words to communicate ideas to other people. Words have multiple definitions and not everyone knows which one to use or which one is being used. 

Even what prophets say, and what Jesus has said, can be misunderstood.

  • Like 1
Link to post
5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Two things - You add ordinances. I don't fault you at all for that; that is fairly common actually. I simply disagree with that from my understanding of scripture. I don't expect you to agree nor do I ask you to change your beliefs.

Is this an ordinance?

Exodus, 40, King James:

On the first day of the first month shalt thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.

And thou shalt put therein the ark of the testimony, and cover the ark with the vail.

And thou shalt bring in the table, and set in order the things that are to be set in order upon it; and thou shalt bring in the candlestick, and light the lamps thereof.

And thou shalt set the altar of gold for the incense before the ark of the testimony, and put the hanging of the door to the tabernacle.

And thou shalt set the altar of the burnt offering before the door of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.

And thou shalt set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and shalt put water therein.

And thou shalt set up the court round about, and hang up the hanging at the court gate.

And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.

10 And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy.

11 And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it.

12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:

15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

16 Thus did Moses: according to all that the Lord commanded him, so did he

Link to post
5 hours ago, Calm said:

How are they "incapable" to receive?

(I ask because this to me is one of the things that makes it sound like you don't get it, Saints at least would generally not see others as "incapable" of receiving such.)

@Navidad

This nails it perfectly.

Everyone is capable and given multiple chances, and besides that, virtually everyone will actually receive the "Heaven" they expect if they have lived to their own standards.

After we pass, more information becomes available and we see more clearly, and there will be missionaries there as well.

It is said that even those in the telestial Kingdom would commit suicide to get there, if they could see the glorious reward waiting for them.

No one is excluded

  • Like 1
Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2020 at 3:27 PM, Ahab said:

I would think that feeling would be fairly common among non-LDS Christians.  Either that or they just don't care if LDS Christians think non-LDS Christians are in the true church of Jesus Christ. 

Even if both LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians are all Christians, it's pretty obvious to me that we're not all in the same church, and there can only be one true church of Jesus Christ.

All of us can be in the same church, and the true church, though, if we want to be.  We just need to ask God which church is the true church of Jesus Christ and then do what it takes to be a member of it.

I deleted my post. It served no purpose. I just think your post is really church-centric. That is just an observation!

 

Edited by Navidad
Link to post
5 hours ago, alter idem said:

One person made a suggestion of how he thought God would be  able to judge all who've lived on earth. But one person's interpretation does not speak for the whole church, or should I assume you speak for all Mennonites? 

I believe most Christian denominations believe in a final judgment,  but I asume most don't tell specifically how that's going to be possible,  and neither does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I think it's good to remember that members here share a lot of speculation on these types of forums. You can't always be sure it's actually church teachings or doctrine. 

I appreciate that. After I read that post, I was reminded that someone in our ward mentioned in Gospel Doctrine class that all the files of the LDS church will someday be recorded and maintained in heaven. I correlated late to the post your referred to. Thanks for your thoughts.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I missed that exchange, fortunately.

Just hearing about it, I find it appalling that some could think that the organizing council if the universe would need to take time to process the judgment.

God lives in an eternal present.

Hi I trust all is well with you today. I got a new mini-split installed in my office today! It is averaging well over 100 degrees outside here. It is so cool I am in paradise. . . . . . Ooops.....well I am in hog heaven! . . . . . . oops I am really comfortable!

I am the one who expressed the semi-serious thought about the judgment of 150 billion people taking a long time. Blame me for that if it appalls you. Sorry. I just have always had the sense that Christ was going to speak personally with each and every person. I thought he would express sadness, joy, perhaps even anger or words of encouragement to each of us before final judgment. I clearly remember as a child hearing that if a movie of our life played in heaven at the judgment seat, how would we feel? Some things in that scared me. Still do! Perhaps I am way off-base on that. I really have no idea how the judgment will work.

Edited by Navidad
Link to post
3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sure it's ok!!

But then let's just disagree about priesthood and exclusivity and ordinances and let it go, and put it in the "just disagree" category, ok ?

You have your opinions and we have ours. I don't know why we have to keep going over this.

 

Ok. Fine with me! Perhaps we can meet in the celestial kingdom some day and look back and shake our heads about all this disagreement. Then I will be able to introduce you to my former Mennonite bishop. He was an amazing man!

Link to post
16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Wow Ahab, In three lines you used the word church seven times. It sure seems your church is your priority. Just an observation. One might be led to believe that your conviction is that Christ died for your church members; not for all those who repent, confess and have faith in his atonement.

 

I would disagree with Ahab on his point. I think there is only one church of the Lamb....and it consists of all those that follow Christ. In saying that, I acknowledge that individual Christians are found all along the scale of understanding and knowing truth. The confines that we see as churches, in this context, fall away and have no meaning. The last days will demand changes from all of God's disciples.

  • Like 1
Link to post
13 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I appreciate that. After I read that post, I was reminded that someone in our ward mentioned in Gospel Doctrine class that all the files of the LDS church will someday be recorded and maintained in heaven. I correlated late to the post your referred to. Thanks for your thoughts.

Thanks, I don't know if all our files will be maintained in the heavens, but we do believe that a recording of the things we do in this life in some way are kept, and we'll all be judged fairly. I think that is a general Christian belief.

The church keeps files and records in vaults and archives because we were charged in the Doctrine and Covenants to maintain and preserve the  records. It's a sacred charge we share with the Nephites, who also kept records.

  • Like 1
Link to post
3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Your insistence that we are wrong about authority  and exclusivity, and that you are right and that we "should" believe as you do.

You just can't seem to get it.

Now you are going over it again yourself. I thought you didn't see value in that. Quickly, I don't insist you are wrong and that I am right. I would not use either of those words in matters of faith. Faith and certainty are not synonymous in my mind. I have no "shoulds" to discuss. OK. I simply disagree with some core LDS beliefs and I am pretty certain (because I don't have to faith this) that those beliefs are an integral part of the tension between LDS and non-LDS Christians. I am guilty of trying to point that out because I think it is something that LDS Christians don't often think about or realize.  So I am willing to get it and to get over it. It just makes me sad and I believe it makes God cry for those who love Him to be so divided!

Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Is this an ordinance?

Exodus, 40, King James:

On the first day of the first month shalt thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.

And thou shalt put therein the ark of the testimony, and cover the ark with the vail.

And thou shalt bring in the table, and set in order the things that are to be set in order upon it; and thou shalt bring in the candlestick, and light the lamps thereof.

And thou shalt set the altar of gold for the incense before the ark of the testimony, and put the hanging of the door to the tabernacle.

And thou shalt set the altar of the burnt offering before the door of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.

And thou shalt set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and shalt put water therein.

And thou shalt set up the court round about, and hang up the hanging at the court gate.

And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.

10 And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy.

11 And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it.

12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:

15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

16 Thus did Moses: according to all that the Lord commanded him, so did he

Sure; not certain (of course) I get what you are asking. The priesthood as established under law and the priesthood as established under Christ are not the same but the priesthood still exists. I don't question that. You are a priest; I am a priest; my wife is a priest. All of us priests were washed, cleansed, and anointed with the blood of the sacrifice of Christ. We were cleansed by his blood in the same way this passage talks about. In a direct commemoration Mennonites still use anointing oil and wash feet as a washing/humility memorial. Nothing salvific in any of it. Please don't think I am against ordinances. I have baptized a ton of people and broken the bread of the sacrament many times. Remember please, I believe in two types of priesthoods active today - the administrative and the sacred. The administrative is church -affiliated; the sacred is atonement-affiliated. The last great sacrifice of the the Dispensation of the Law was that of Christ. No more sacrifices today because they would make a mockery of that of Christ.  Not sure if there is a question in your post beyond "Is this an ordinance?" Yes it is, in an OT context.

Edited by Navidad
Link to post
1 hour ago, Ahab said:

That's an inherent problem of using words to communicate ideas to other people. Words have multiple definitions and not everyone knows which one to use or which one is being used. 

Even what prophets say, and what Jesus has said, can be misunderstood.

Hey Ahab, please remember that I never said I thought you were wrong in what you said. I believe I expressed fascination and interest! I even told my wife about it on our trip up to the states yesterday!

  • Like 1
Link to post
34 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Thanks, I don't know if all our files will be maintained in the heavens, but we do believe that a recording of the things we do in this life in some way are kept, and we'll all be judged fairly. I think that is a general Christian belief.

The church keeps files and records in vaults and archives because we were charged in the Doctrine and Covenants to maintain and preserve the  records. It's a sacred charge we share with the Nephites, who also kept records.

As I noted in another post - as a boy I was taught that Christ would show a movie of my life at the judgment so I better be good so I am not embarrassed!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Posted (edited)

I hesitate to share this with you because whenever I express a feeling about something, someone here gets upset with me. I express that I am hurt by what I perceive as LDS exclusivity and I am told to "get over it."

Anyway I will take big risk of rejection here. .......I would very much appreciate your prayers for my dear wife. She is having heart problems. We have to go back to the states next week for more tests. I love her so dearly. I am so frightened of losing her, even if for the short time I myself have left on earth. She is the dearest most Godly woman I know. Do I get offended when our gospel doctrine teacher informs me that my wife could not possibly have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes I do. I know you all don't like it when I say that. Some of you say it isn't even about the person. Of course it is when he points across the vestibule to her. She is all I see - a humble, sweet, kind and Godly Spirit-led woman - my wife of fifty years. That was one of the times she left the ward in tears.

At any rate I love her dearly. It may shock and surprise many of you but I deeply respect the faith and Godliness of many of my friends in the LDS church. I value your prayers.  I simply and humbly ask you to pray to heavenly father for her healing and well-being. I am strong, am a man of faith, but I also simply and selfishly don't want to lose her even for the few years I have left. Please please don't lecture me about eternal marriages. That won't help right now. Maybe another day. We just got back from the doctor yesterday. Just be kind and tell me you will remember her in your prayers even if she isn't one of you. I would greatly appreciate that. Thanks, Phil

Edited by Navidad
  • Like 3
Link to post
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Now you are going over it again yourself. I thought you didn't see value in that. Quickly, I don't insist you are wrong and that I am right. I would not use either of those words in matters of faith. Faith and certainty are not synonymous in my mind. I have no "shoulds" to discuss. OK. I simply disagree with some core LDS beliefs and I am pretty certain (because I don't have to faith this) that those beliefs are an integral part of the tension between LDS and non-LDS Christians. I am guilty of trying to point that out because I think it is something that LDS Christians don't often think about or realize.  So I am willing to get it and to get over it. It just makes me sad and I believe it makes God cry for those who love Him to be so divided!

Hi Navidad, you suggest that you are pretty certain that it is our beliefs which are integral to the tension and division between LDS and non-LDS.  The way I see it, if you all would simply believe with us, there would be no division and tension, so it couldn't possible be our beliefs that are the source of tension :) Likewise, if we believed along with you, there would also be no division or tension...actually, that is probably not true when I consider sectarianism as a whole - but regardless, isn't it how we react to each other's beliefs that is the true source of tension and not the beliefs themselves?  If you don't believe what we teach, why allow it to create tension?  Let it go.  If you truly don't believe that our core beliefs are wrong (as you insist) or that they should change, then the only thing that can change is how non-LDS Christians react to our beliefs.  We can all live in peace and be free of tension, if y'all would simply react peacefully to our friendly invitations and keep your sectarian bickering to yourselves :P

Edited by pogi
  • Like 1
Link to post
On 6/4/2020 at 5:27 PM, Ahab said:

I would think that feeling would be fairly common among non-LDS Christians.  Either that or they just don't care if LDS Christians think non-LDS Christians are in the true church of Jesus Christ. 

Even if both LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians are all Christians, it's pretty obvious to me that we're not all in the same church, and there can only be one true church of Jesus Christ.

All of us can be in the same church, and the true church, though, if we want to be.  We just need to ask God which church is the true church of Jesus Christ and then do what it takes to be a member of it.

Ahab, I don't think a feeling of sorrow as Navidad expresses, is very common at all when it comes to non-LDS Christians, many of whom wouldn't have reason to think or care about the differences between our beliefs regarding Christian identity.  I do think it's quite rare for non-LDS Christians to think deeply about those differences, and also to firmly believe, as Navidad does, that we both are fully secure in Christ.  I share that with him.

I especially feel his sorrow when I think of his constant and close interactions with LDS believers.  I don't think I'd be able to enter into a church community relationship with folks who for the most part, believe that I am not truly a Christian believer, as they are.

I understand and agree with Navidad's complete acceptance of his LDS friends' faith.  I have the same beliefs.  And thankfully, I have  a mutual understanding and acceptance with a few LDS Christian friends who accept me and my faith unconditionally.  (You would probably say that they don't truly accept my faith, or that they don't understand LDS doctrine,  or that they're not genuine LDS believers.  I don't think any of those are the case.)  I think there's a possibility of LDS and non-LDS Christians so knowing each other, and hearing each other's heart and spirit, that they can feel "one in Christ" and believe that each other will be in God's presence eternally.  I hope that Navidad experiences this, if only with a very few fellow church folk where he worships.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I deleted my post. It served no purpose. I just think your post is really church-centric. That is just an observation!

 

As it was meant to be, because I was trying to help you to realize that only members of the true church of Jesus Christ are fully saved.

'.. edited to add, I was trying to help you to realize that is what we believe, because we believe the ordinances are required for salvation, and when you accept the ordinances you are then one of us.

Edited by Ahab
Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...